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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: SJamieson on Thursday 11 July 19 16:57 BST (UK)
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Bit of a family mystery and was looking for help. My Wife's Gt Grandfather's Marriage certificate gave the name of his parents as Thomas Robertson, and Elizabeth Hutch Ross and from that I was able to formulate a family tree for her.
However family rumour had it that he was adopted and on a second pass I looked to see whether this was the case. On this search I was unable to find an obvious birth record for him anywhere and the first record I do find for him is the 1911 census (extract attached below) but without the McQuillan middle name. As McQuillan isn't otherwise a family name. I suspect it could either be birth surname, or birth mother's maiden name so have looked for both options.
On the census, Thomas and Elizabeth's details all tally with their birth and marriage dates but they are recorded as having no children. John Appears as a visitor (aged 3) but his place of birth doesn't appear to make sense - as best we can make out it reads Strathaven, Perthshire but obviously Strathaven is Lanarkshire, and none of the Perthshire Straths appear obviously similar to the written name.
In Strathaven there are no John Robertson's born in the 1907-1908 window but there is a John McQuillian. In the whole of Perthsire the opposite is true no John McQuillan's but several John Robertson's - though none obviously fall into any of the Straths that do exist.
Of course it could be that both his names changed and a complete dead end has been reached, but a fresh pair of eyes looking over it would be appreciated.
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Have you looked for any other McQuillan/Robertson close to where your 1911 is located?
My guess is he was illegitimate although brought up with his father's surname which was common but it's only a thought of course.
Annie
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Should have added that Census is for Main Street, St Ninians. The family still stay in the Stirling area today, but Thomas, Elizabeth and their predecessors came from Lanarkshire.
There's no Robertsons or McQuillans born in Stirling itself that would be a good match, but they could have still been somewhere in Lanarkshire at that time.
Also the visitor designation seems to throw off illegitimacy as he'd still be the nephew of the respondent on the census rather than unconnected
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There is a John McQuillan born at Avondale in 1907. I think Avondale takes in Strathaven. Is this the birth for Strathaven you say you already saw?
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Yes, Avondale is the one I have already seen. Haven't retrieved the record yet as I was waiting to see if someone could make a suggestion as to the illegible handwriting. (Plus Pay-day is at the weekend)
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Can you post a close-up of the 'Strathavin' part please?
I think it has to be an error although Robertson is a 'Perthshire' name
I think if he's recorded as a 'Visitor' rather than a relation of any sort then it suggests there's no obvious relationship at least to the head although possibly to the wife?
Have you found any connection in her line with either surname?
Annie
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There's no obvious sign of the name in either Thomas's or Elizabeth's trees. Though Thomas Grandmother was McGuigan - so it could have been a typo of that.
I only know of Elizabeth's sister Catherine, she married a William Gayne. So it Doesn't look like the answer is there. Thomas and Alexander had a sister Agnes, but there's no sign of any Robertson McQuillan marriage at the time
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Unless it's a poor Strathallan?
Annie
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There was a John McQuillan Robertson born in 1938 at Stirling. Interesting - could it be his son from a marriage in Stirlingshire? One never does know, does one? ;D
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It could be a bad Strathearn or a bad Strathallan but neither are returning any helpful names.
I think the 1938 one would be his son, though my Wife's line is through another son Archibald. There's another in 1955 which I think might be my wife's Uncle John.
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The one born in 1938 appears to have died in 2009. ...John McQuillan Robertson, aged 70, died at Stirling. Mother's name Hamilton. If the name Hamilton is unknown to you then it may be a red herring.
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John's Wife was Agnes Houston Hamilton so that aligns correctly that his younger son had the same name as him.
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From that, the only likely death I see for John himself is 1956
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Which is also the year both his parents died.
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Strathearn is a possible too but either way it's not helping with a birth but it's quite possible the head assumed where born?
So far what's been found does look promising.
Annie
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John McQuillan, Illegitimate, born 3 Oct 1907 at Green Street, Strathaven. Mother: Helen McQuillan, Domestic Servant. Looks like it is the Avondale birth, all along... Doesn't tell you much, but at least you know the mother's name.
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Hi,
I think the Census reads Strathaven, which obviously isn't in Perthshire.
The death of John Robertson aged 48 in 1956 at Stirling ? There is also a hit on Scotland's People for a John McQuillan aged 48 in 1956 in Stirling. Both have the ref 490/56.
Would this not indicate the deceased was registered with both surnames and that he probably had been born as John McQuillan?
Looby :)
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That all seems to add up, will start to investigate these leads.
Thanks for all the help.
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The death of John Robertson aged 48 in 1956 at Stirling ? There is also a hit on Scotland's People for a John McQuillan aged 48 in 1956 in Stirling. Both have the ref 490/56.
Would this not indicate the deceased was registered with both surnames and that he probably had been born as John McQuillan?
Looby :)
Looby, yes that's correct ;)
Annie
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Having gotten the records now, it's nice to see that his death registers his mother as Helen unlike his marriage registration which listed his adoptive parents.
At the moment however Helen appears to be a dead end as there's so little information to go on. She's not in Avondale in the 1901 or 1911 census, and there's few Helen McQuillan's in the 1911 census at all. Cross referencing all the Helen/Hellen/Ellen/etc McQuillan/McQuillian/Quillian/etc birth, deaths and marriages doesn't show up any clear candidates - though presuming she was younger the "Ellen" born in Greenock West that subsequently moves to Govan for the two censuses (named as Hellen in 1911 one) is the closest candidate.
Likewise the 1905 property roll gives no obvious information on 25 Green Street, but many of the houses aren't numbered.
Thanks again to all for the help in solving this one.
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Having gotten the records now, it's nice to see that his death registers his mother as Helen unlike his marriage registration
What info. is given on the DC for Helen, was she deceased &/or occupation?
Annie
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John McQuillan, Illegitimate, born 3 Oct 1907 at Green Street, Strathaven. Mother: Helen McQuillan, Domestic Servant.
Is there a No. for Green Street & is there mention of 'Domicile' with a different address?
Annie
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This may just be a coincidence but worth considering I think...
1901 has a Maggie McQuillan 19 Servant born Denny, Stirling
Living at 15 Barn Street, Strathaven, Avondale, Lanark
I couldn't locate Helen in 1901 or 1911 anywhere.
Then checking Denny births...
MCQUILLAN HELEN 1880
476/1 111 Denny
MCQUILLAN MARY 1868
476/ 190 Denny
MCQUILLAN CAROLINE 1873
476/ 1 Denny
MCQUILLAN MARGARET 1878
476/1 21 Denny
There are lots more siblings for the above
Then a death...
MCQUILLAN HELEN 33
1915
490/ 223 Stirling
Annie
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Having gotten the records now, it's nice to see that his death registers his mother as Helen unlike his marriage registration
What info. is given on the DC for Helen, was she deceased &/or occupation?
Annie
Deceased Domestic Servant - not much to go on and possibly a likelihood combined with his birth certificate details.
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John McQuillan, Illegitimate, born 3 Oct 1907 at Green Street, Strathaven. Mother: Helen McQuillan, Domestic Servant.
Is there a No. for Green Street & is there mention of 'Domicile' with a different address?
Annie
No mention of a domicile. It appears to give a house number of 25, but it's unusual as it's the only registered birth on that page that identifies a specific house number (all same Registrar) Property rolls are mostly numbered but have about a dozen people in 21 then jumps to a few in 35.
In 1901 Maggie is in 15 Barn Street which if the numbering's today are still consistent is just around the corner.
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My attention was drawn to the coincidences.
Maggie with same unusual surname in Strathaven, born Stirling where John ended up then Maggie having a sis Helen.
Annie
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Off to work just now so don't have much time to dig today, but that 1915 death matches a 1912 marriage.
"Ellan" McQuillan married James Wylie in Stirling. Both surnames are given in the death registration.
It's definitely worth exploring (particularly since there are so few Helen Mcquillan's
Here's a kicker in 1891 the family appear to move from Denny to Bannockburn but in 1901 Maggie's Still in Bannockburn but Helen is missing.
So is Helen in Strathaven mistakenly called Maggie by the householder (a Maggie Wiseman) or the census taker?
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Regarding John's birth, it was at 25 Green St, Strathaven. The two other births on the same page are for an Annie Wilson Malone and a Jessie Wilson Park. First one born at what looks like Todshill St, Strathaven and the 2nd at what looks like Comelybank, Strathaven. All three were signed by the same registrar.
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"Ellan" McQuillan married James Wylie in Stirling. Both surnames are given in the death registration.
Here's a kicker in 1891 the family appear to move from Denny to Bannockburn but in 1901 Maggie's Still in Bannockburn but Helen is missing.
So is Helen in Strathaven mistakenly called Maggie by the householder (a Maggie Wiseman) or the census taker?
It's not beyond a possibility both sisters had been in the same household & had been mixed up, only 2 yrs difference in age, possibly looked very similar i.e. easily mistaken?
I've known sisters/brothers who look very similar & can't tell them apart.
I did note the proximity of Green St & Barn St being close together.
It's interesting too, John is noted as 'Visitor' in 1911 (one night) rather than 'adopted son' i.e. this may have been a later decision?
I haven't looked but I wonder if Helen is on 1911 as Wylie?
Annie
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There is a tree on Ancestry with a Thomas McQuillan (1841-1906) married to Margaret Graham (1839-1889), and they had a child Helen McQuillan born at Denny, 25 Jul 1880, who died on 18th July 1915 at Stirling.
She had married a William Wiseman, b 1888 and had a child named Margaret in 1904.
I searched further (using Ancestry) and found an interesting connection with Avondale... On the 1901 census at Avondale, there are two famlies of Wiseman's on the same page. The first one is the interesting one...
...Maggie Wiseman, 45, Auctioneer
James, 24
John, 21
Robert, 15
William, 13
Charles, 10
Christine, 4
Maggie McQuillan, Servant, 19, born Denny.
Now, according to the tree I saw, the William Wiseman that Helen McQuillan married was born in 1888. ...The William Wiseman on the above census was aged 13, so that makes him born in 1888. So could it be that Helen was married to this William Wiseman, lived at Strathaven and then to complicate matters further had the illegitimate John McQuillan in 1907?
Also, there is a Maggie McQuillan, living there as a servant. Was she possibly Helen's sister? She was born in Denny.
Apologies if this is all a wild goose chase. Either way, it is complicated!
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I have to go out but...
MCQUILLAN ELLAN
WYLLIE JAMES 1912
490/ 43 Stirling
MCQUILLAN MARGARET
WISEMAN ROBERT 1902
621/ 20 Avondale
Annie
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Death Record
Wiseman
nee MCQUILLAN
MARGARET
67
1946
651/ 119
Airdrie or New Monkland
Which leaves the obvious Margret is in Avondale in 1901 and Helen/Ellan is in Bannockburn. As Mother Catherine had died in 1895 before the family moved to Bannockburn, Helen is sent to older sister Margaret during her pregnancy before returning to Stirling after giving birth.
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Looks like I have the wrong family as the family I was hoping to be the link were all born Denny with parents Thomas & Margaret.
Annie
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Looks like I have the wrong family as the family I was hoping to be the link were all born Denny with parents Thomas & Margaret.
Annie
No You're right about Margaret, but in the 1891 census (and forward) the family aren't in Denny but in Bannockburn and the mother is missing - though there's not an obvious death record for her either. I got mixed up with another death record which was Catherine.
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Ahh, Ok as I was scratching my head wondering where Catherine had appeared from ;)
Annie
Add, I'd been through all the censuses for the family which is how I knew there were 'lots of siblings'
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The births for the children will give the info. of where/when Thomas & Margaret married as well as her maiden name.
Annie
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Struggling to find a marriage in Scotland so far i.e. births after 1870 will give that info. hopefully?
1871 census gives Margaret's PoB as Linlithgow.
The birth of Caroline 1873 has her MS as Graham although I can't pin a death in Stirling which matches her age on census' at the moment.
From the tree Doddsie found she died 1891 but nothing to fit?
Edit...She may have died outwith Stirling of course.
Annie
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Death...
MCQUILLAN MARGARET 48
1889
465/ 66 Alloa (Clackmannan)
Matching ref. for surname Graham
Annie
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The births for the children will give the info. of where/when Thomas & Margaret married as well as her maiden name.
Annie
Margaret Graham
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQZF-V4L (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQZF-V4L)
It Appears she dies in Alloa in 1889 but it's not clear if the whole family moved to Alloa between Denny and Bannockburn.
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:) Seems we were both discovering the same thing at the same time...
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Using different resources ;)
Annie
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It Appears she dies in Alloa in 1889 but it's not clear if the whole family moved to Alloa between Denny and Bannockburn.
She could have been visiting/shopping or other but the DC will state where she died & her usual address if she was away from home.
Annie
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Thomas on VRs in Denny in 1885 at Broad Street & this could be him in 1895?...
MACQUILLAN THOMAS Inhabitant Occupier
HOUSE 109 NEWTOWN, BO'NESS AND CARRIDEN
1895
VR012200019-
Annie
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There is a good tree with certificates on it. It is named Cathy's Tree (Cathymiller39)
I have copied the following information from it ...Thomas McQuillan married Margaret Graham at West Lothian in 1859. In 1871, they were living at Dunipace, Stirlingshire. In 1881 at Denny. In 1891 at St Ninians. Margaret Graham died at Alloa 27 Mar 1889. Thomas McQuillan died in 1906 at Stirling.
Children of Thomas McQuillan & Margaret Graham:
Agnes McQuillan 1860-1864
Agnes McQuillan 1865 (Obviously naming the first female child after the one who just died)
Thomas McQuillan 1866
Mary Anne McQuillan 1868
Catherine McQuillan 1871
Margaret Graham McQuillan 1878
Ellen McQuillan 1880-1915
Norah McQuillan 1883
To find Cathy's Tree, go to Ancestry, click Search. Click Search All Records. Type in Thomas McQuillan. Birth 1839. Click Spouse and type in Margaret Graham. Click child and make it Helen. Scroll down, and make the gender male. Race: Scottish. Collection Focus: Scotland. Scroll down and click SEARCH. Scroll down, looking at left side of page. Click Family Trees. ...4th on the list (if you scroll down) should be "Cathy's Tree" Click on this one and it has lots of information.
Brian
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I've just had a look at the DC for Helen & strangely her mother Margaret is down as Nancy!
I've seen many variants for Margaret but never Nancy unless her husband wasn't sure as Margaret was deceased before they married?
Annie
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1901 Thomas is back in Denny though his surname is misspelt on the census as McQuillen.
There's a younger Thomas there as well (at least in Dunipace which is co-joined with Denny) but he's only 26 not the 34 that Thomas jr should be.
The rest of the family are more elusive at that point. There's only one Norah in birth records, and a Norah gets married to an Andrew Findlay in St Rollox in 1901, but she's not obviously in the census that year and there's no subsequent obvious death in Scotland under McQuillan or Findlay.
Mary Ann is a common name so there are lots of possibilities as is Catherine.
The 1901 Bannockburn McQuillan's also appear to be unrelated to the 1891 Bannockburn McQuillans which created the confusion of two Margarets of similar ages.
Nancy seems odd, as it's not a common name and none of the Nancy's appear in the right place or time so a possible mistake.
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Marriage certificate confirms Parents Thomas and Margret. She's a Domestic servant - tick - and spinster while James is a widower.
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Signatures don't match on the Birth Certificate (obviously Helen's) and the marriage certificate; but I believe that was common at the time. The name on the marriage certificate is also clearly Ellan rather than Helen. The witness is a Robertson however (I'm reading it as Katie but I'm not certain that's right)
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Since I mentioned it, Signature comparison of the two certifcates
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Since I mentioned it, Signature comparison of the two certifcates
They look pretty dissimilar to me. One is obviously much more accustomed to writing than the other, and the shape of the M is very different.
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On a Second look I think it's the registrar's writing on the marriage index. I'd initially dismissed it because of a different M on McQuillan but he uses the same M on Margaret for the name of her mother.
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On a Second look I think it's the registrar's writing on the marriage index. I'd initially dismissed it because of a different M on McQuillan but he uses the same M on Margaret for the name of her mother.
Yes, that's possible. Looks as if this registrar sent his copy of the register to Edinburgh, so that is the one that was scanned.
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It would be interesting to know if Helen had at least 1 child to the marriage & signed as a comparison?
Annie
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It would be interesting to know if Helen had at least 1 child to the marriage & signed as a comparison?
Annie
None of the Wylie births between marriage and her death seem to be hers. Also if there had been, likely it would have been her husband who signed rather than herself.
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Just noticed on the 1911 census that Margret took a son Tom into her marriage with Robert Wiseman.
He was born 1897 in Denny.
In the 1901 Census he's staying with the 26 year old Thomas and his wife Maria nee Curley - suggesting that he is Thomas jr despite the age inconsistency.
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Another Sister found.
Caroline Marries Edward Kelly in Linlithgow in 1895. They're both in Denny in the 1901 and 1911 censuses.
Doesn't help on finding Helen in the 1911 though - that might confirm she'd had a child.
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I don't think the 1911 would help regarding children as I think it only applied to married couples when recording the children to the marriage?
Annie