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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: tyshapuzzle on Saturday 06 July 19 17:30 BST (UK)
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Hello all
I have received copies of the service record for my Grandfather George and I am rather confused by many of the abbreviations but mostly I am curious about where he went and what he did really.
I see that he started with the 4th L of C Signals (which I think might stand for Lines of Communication?) as a driver but later trained as a signalman. I find this interesting because upon his return to civilian life he joined the GPO and worked as a telephone engineer, whereas before the war he worked as a driver for a funeral director so his army service must have equipped him well for the future.
I would really appreciate any help anyone could offer about the war my Grandad had.
Thank you in advance
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For precise locations, only the various units war diaries would help, an expensive business!
In outline though the first sheet is giving us:
As you have noted, it starts with him in 4 Lines of Communication Signals at Colwyn Bay re-mustering (changing trades) to driver i/c (driver internal combustion which distinguished him from for example a horse transport driver or steam vehicle driver) and then going with them to North Africa.
5 Oct 1940 embarks for a theatre of war arriving at Base Depot Egypt (Alexandria) and is with 4 L of C Sigs by 25 Nov 1940. The campaign in N Africa had been under way since June 1940 and the entries to the bottom of the sheet in March 1945 are covering his service in the communications system between the rear supply areas and headquarters and the forward elements in the Western desert (Libya and Egypt) campaign, then the Tunisia campaign and then (perhaps) the invasion of Sicily and the Italian campaign. The detailed entries:
The two bracketed entries in 1941 are him in hospital (in N Africa somewhere!) and while there is placed, for administrative purposes on the X 2 list which is a way of accounting for him away from his unit.
The May 1943 entries are him moving to 8th Army Signals (similar tasks as with L of C) and going up a bit in the classification ladder. Significantly they are in the run up to the invasion of Sicily (H Force). The August 1943 stamp relates to him (and his unit) now not under the Middle East Force and now under the British North African Force (the documentation didn’t always keep up with the facts!)
Another short spell in hospital in Aug/Sep 1943 and a change of trade to signalman.
The Africa Star and the 8th Army clasp that went with it for him recognises his service during the 1940-1943 in N Africa.
In March 1945 he has done over 4 years overseas (that is indicated by the word PYTHON) and was ready for a home posting so he is posted away from 8 Army Sigs to 3 Transit camp and we can’t tell which one.
A problem here is that there was 3 Transit Camp in N Africa and in Italy. He doesn’t seem to have the Italy Star and his document doesn’t have the abbreviation CMF (Central Mediterranean Force) which would indicate he was in Italy after BNAF so one would need to find out the specific movement of 8th Army Signals during the 43-45 dates.
He is back in UK in Thirsk at the end of March 1945, goes on leave and in Jun 1945 is posted there to 5 Anti Aircraft Group Signals Unit (Mixed).
From there in Sep 1945 he is posted again to 55 Infantry Division (a reserve division).
Sheet two in due course.
MaxD
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MaxD this is amazing thank you so much. I never expected so much detail. You are very kind.
I have a rather silly question: what did a signalman actually do?
His home leave in 1945 explains how he managed to marry my grandma in April 1945 at home in Barrow in Furness!
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There were a number of trades in the Royal Signals. The driver bit is obvious I think but as a signalman he could have been a wireless operator or a lineman (up a pole keeping the telegraph lines going) or a despatch rider or a switchboard operator. Lots of detail at this link:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o0t/
MaxD
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His home leave in 1945 explains how he managed to marry my grandma in April 1945 at home in Barrow in Furness!
The army didn't give him much time with his new wife because (now sheet two)
Line one is a repeat of his posting to 55 Infantry Division in Sep 1945 and then in Oct 1945(2nd and 3rd line) he is sent on a draft (large party of men) with the code letters RMH (something, the letters don't mean anything so what the last one(s) is/are is irrelevant) to 53 Reinforcement Holding Unit in the British Army of the Rhine (in Germany) to await a proper posting. Arrives 2 Oct 1945 . The X 4 bit is again an administrative thing as he hasn't got a proper posting yet.
On 15 Oct he is posted from 53 RHU to what looks like B Corps B Signals which is a unit designation I am not familiar with but if someone knows (rather than guesses) fine otherwise I'll seek advice elsewhere (I know a man who knows!)
He remains there until 3 March 1946 when he embarked North West Europe for UK and is Struck off Strength (cease to belong to) BAOR and is released from the army finally.
MaxD
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Again thanks MaxD.
My Dad dug out George's medals and he has an Africa Star with 8th army clasp as you said. He also has an Italy star and a 1939-1945 star and war medal.
Forgive my ignorance but if I went to TNA to look at the unit war diaries what/which units do I need? Are the diaries likely to tell me how he got to these various places? Some sort of transport convoy I assume?
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Glad you found the Italy Star because that means in total N Africa, Sicily, Italy and home from there. then a short time in Germany. A pretty good service record.
Draft to N Africa by troopship. 4 Lof C will have taken all their vehicles earlier and when they, and later 8th Army Sigs moved they would move not necessarily all together but in packets of a number of vehicles. To Sicily by landing craft and again Sicily to Italy mainland.
I'll get back about diaries.
MaxD
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I read somewhere that PYTHON refers to the bringing of men who had done 4 years overseas service back to home service for the remainder of the war, which fits George, but then he was sent back to Germany? In your experience was this common?
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Not quite "at home for the rest of the war" but "home leave after 4 years overseas etc". He could equally well have found himself in a home unit but in his case, luck of the draw, he went to BAOR. His demobilisation date depended on a formula based on his age, his years of service and his years of overseas service and although the war had ended before he was posted to Germany, from his record we see that his demob date wasn't until 1946 (there were still men being demobbed in 1947).
Diaries - the best approach is indeed to go to Kew yourself although there are some dilemmas. Taking 4 LofC Signals first. This link
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_srt=3&_ep=4+Line+of+Communication+Signals&_cr=WO+169&_dss=range&_ro=any&_p=1925&_st=adv
to the war diaries covering October 1940 to May 1943 shows that there are a number of companies within 4 LofC so ignore the ones with "company" in the title. That leaves:
WO 169/422, /1968, /5556, /11104. It is highly unusual for individual soldiers to be mentioned in war diaries although on the face of it, a company diary might do. We don't know which one he served with so unless you'd have to devote days to looking at the ones for the companies and then most likely not find anything. The top level diaries will at least give an idea of where they were operating and when.
Copying the diaries is an expensive process http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/record-copying-prices-february-2019.pdf (£8.40 for a page check then £1.40 per page if you go ahead). There are reliable services that can do the same thing for much less).
I need to do some more work on the other main units from May 43 onwards.
MaxD
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Thank you again MaxD I will make a start on those on Thursday. You have been so helpful
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Thanks to friends elsewhere, jigsaw pieces are falling into place.
The final posting (after a short stay at 53 RHU at Bielefeld awaiting posting) was to posted to 8 Corps Signals that became 8 Corps District in Jun 1945. This site has some details. https://britisharmyingermany.com/8th-corps-district/
The signals unit would have worked to the main and rear headquarters and perhaps also to the other locations mentioned. There are two diaries for the period:
WO 171/4040 and 171/8688.
MaxD
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I note from the service record that embarkation for theatre took place on 4/10/40. If it is of interest that would have been on troop convoy WS3F which sailed from UK on 5/10/40. Disembarkation at Suez was listed as 17/11/40 in which case he was transported on one of 4 fast liners 'Orontes', 'Monarch of Bermuda', 'Georgic' or 'Duchess of York' all of which anchored in Suez Bay at 1000 on 16th.
Clive
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Hi Clive
Are there any records which would show which of those ships he was on?
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There's an outside chance that the relevant war diary will mention it when describing the movement of his unit. I was lucky in that it was in my father's case when he sailed for North Africa in 1941, but I understand that this was a rare exception. Otherwise I don't know of any other record than perhaps a reminiscence by another member of the unit. I have a fairly comprehensive account of that and other troop convoys in a very good book. I'll give it some further study and will post if I come up with anything more.
Clive P
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Thank you Clive, much appreciated
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I've been looking at some of the other documents in his file and I think that the first one refers to 4th company, 4 L of C Signals?
Can anything more be gleaned about his service from any of these?
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I should have asked to see the other records earlier!
"George7" shows that 4 LofC Sigs was re-designated (changed its title) in July 1942 which means that I can go back to the National Archives catalogue and look again with that info in my mind. There has been no luck in finding the 8th Army Sigs in a diary title.
It also specifically shows he was in 2 Communications section within 4 LofC which will be of use when looking at diaries.
We may be getting there - hang on!
MaxD
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The note relating to the re-designation of 4 LofC as 8th Army Signals in 1942 is not reflected in the 4 LofC diaries in that, at Kew at least, there are 4 LofC diaries beyond those I cited earlier, going on to 1945 in fact.
The whole list, 19 diaries (although there is some overlap where company diaries exist) is at the link:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o13/
I note that the titles from about 1943 don't have "Italy" in the title which is usually the case when a unit, previously in N Africa, moves to Italy (as we know George did). I would be happier if the diary covering the July 1942 period confirmed the change of unit title and if we saw the move to Italy reflected in the diaries from late 1943.
Thus if you wish to find detail of where the unit was operating during those three years, I'd recommend a check of the two mentioned above to be sure about the unit. (I should have said that there are no diaries entitled "8th Army Signals" or indeed, apart from a couple of military police ones, none with 8th Army in the title at all).
Quite a lot of documentation to go through. I should let you think about how you wish to go about it from here on.
MaxD
PS Ignore the attachment if it opens, tried to delete it!
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Just a brief conclusion to my research of the troop convoy. The four vessels I mentioned previously were joined in Suez by a further two later the same day but they were from an earlier 'slow' section of the same convoy that left UK four days prior to your Grandfather's embarkation. So we are left with the four vessels I mentioned as his possible transport. All six ships were carrying a total of 13,786 troops but I cannot find any record of the regiments or units they were carrying or in which vessel. One small piece of information I unearthed is the fact that 'Georgic' embarked her troops in the Clyde whereas the other three embarked in Liverpool. Interesting perhaps but unless you have any idea where he embarked it won't help.
Good luck with the rest of your research.
Clive
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So yesterday I was able to view the War diaries for 4 L of C Signals and made a start with 1940 and 1941. I will go back in the next couple of weeks to continue. However, The very first statement says that they indeed disembarked from the HMT Orontes so thank you cpercival, you were bang on there.
I took images of all of the official diaries through to Dec 1941 if anyone is interested, plus some of the additional papers including daily "orders" sheets which make interesting reading and often mention individual other ranks by name if they were promoted, sent on a training course or the subject of an inquiry and the like.
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Good start! Do let me know if the July 1942 confirms the change of designation and about the Italy deployment later.
You'll note how many different elements there were to such a regiment, all scattered over miles and miles of desert, pity his docs don't say which element he was in, fingers crossed he comes up in a routine order somewhere.
MaxD
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what does the 4th bit mean in 4th L of C? is it 4th unit or division or something?
It's confusing because I think one of the earlier documents (jgeorge4) refers to 4 Coy but another (jgeorge7) to 2 Com Section
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4 LofC Signals distinguishes it from, for example, 2 Line of Communication Signals. There were a number of different LofC Signals regiments, each with a different number.
Within 4 LofC, as with other regiments, there were a number of companies and alongside these a number of sections as you can see from the sheet you posted. The extract shows only No 1 Company deploying initially with the sections listed. We only see him in 4 Company in 1940. 2 Construction Section (my error earlier calling it Communications section) is on the sheet so he is on the page you posted!
MaxD
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oh that's interesting... roughly how many men to a section / company?
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A real expert has already done the work and, as usual, there is no one answer as signal regiments varied in their tasks. Look at the top three threads at this link:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o1k/
MaxD