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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: jaimeejackson on Tuesday 02 July 19 20:23 BST (UK)
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can anybody find Daniel Kirven, he is lost off the face of the earth lol..
married Ann Doyle 26 Feb 1878 in Liverpool, he is on the 1881 census, but then on the 1891 census he has disappeared and Ann is still classed as wife and not widow. I cant seem to find any death records for him.
Bit of a nightmare as the name has so many variations so I am unable to locate much for him :(
I have found one possible baptism record in Kildare, Ireland mother Mary Mason and father Daniel Kirwen 1835 but unfortunately I cant locate anything else for any of them :(
my grandads name is kirven, but I think back then it was kirwen or kirwan xxx
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How old was he at marriage? At census?
Occupation at both?
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census - 40 Labourer (listed as david kerwin here)
marriage - no age but timeline on ancestry puts him at 42, however this doesn't make sense as the marriage was in 1878
xx
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they have some children
Daniel Kirvin
1867–
Anna Kervin
1869–1870
Patrick kervin
1871–
William Kervin
1874–
Edit
James Kerwin
1876–
John Kervin
1878-1964
Mary Ann Kervin
1881–
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Whose kids are those?
1881 lists (free index, familysearch)
David Kirwin Head Male 40 Wexford, Ireland
Ann Kirwin Wife Female 33 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
David Kirwin Son Male 14 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Patrick Kirwin Son Male 11 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Kirwin Son Male 3 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Where did Anna's birth and death come from?
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Related thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813792.
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Kirwan on official marriage record Roman Catholic Records site
1878 196 O L RECONCILIATION ANN ANNAM DOYLE DANIEL DANIEL KIRWAN
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolrcmarriages/marriages.php
.............................................................
daughter Catherines baptism - different church
1886-4005 ST BRIGID 282-BRI-1-2 (162) 1885 1886 CATHERINE KIRWAN DANIEL ANN DOYLE
.....................................................................................
I wonder has he chaged his name to JOHN KIRWAN - in 1901 there is this family - Catherine Kirwan BORN 1886 - AND ONLY ONE WAS REGISTERED IN LIVERPOOL THAT YEAR ??
....
Household
Role
Sex
Age
Birthplace
John Kirwan
Head
Male
45
Ireland Dirtherrin
Ann Kirwan
Wife
Female
45
Liverpool, Lancashire
Catherine Kirwan
Daughter
Female
15
Liverpool, Lancashire
John Kirwan
Son
Male
13
Liverpool, Lancashire
Gerald Kirwan
Son
Male
11
Liverpool, Lancashire
THIS LOOKS LIKE the right family to me - what do other people think ??
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Whose kids are those?
1881 lists (free index, familysearch)
David Kirwin Head Male 40 Wexford, Ireland
Ann Kirwin Wife Female 33 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
David Kirwin Son Male 14 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Patrick Kirwin Son Male 11 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Kirwin Son Male 3 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Where did Anna's birth and death come from?
this looks a different family - they only married in 1878 ??
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Is this the family of the 1878 marriage?
GRO births
KIRWEN, Elizabeth Ellen mms. DOYLE
1882 DecQ Oldham Vol 08D Pg 663
KIRWEN, Anne mms. DOYLE
1884 DecQ Oldham Vol 08D Pg 697
KIRWEN, Edward mms. DOYLE
1886 SepQ Oldham Vol. 08D Pg 727
KIRWEN, Margaret mms. DOYLE
1889 JanQ Oldham Vol 08D Pg 726
KIRWEN, Elizabeth mms. DOYLE
1891 DecQ Oldham Vol 08D Pg 690
KIRWEN, CATHERINE mms. DOYLE
1894 SepQ Oldham Vol 08D Pg 658
Where / how are you seeing Daniel on 1881 Census?
Where / how are you seeing Ann on 1891 Census?
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Is this the family of the 1878 marriage?
GRO births
KIRWEN, Elizabeth Ellen mms. DOYLE
1882 DecQ Oldham Vol 08D Pg 663
KIRWEN, Anne mms. DOYLE
1884 DecQ Oldham Vol 08D Pg 697
KIRWEN, Edward mms. DOYLE
1886 SepQ Oldham Vol. 08D Pg 727
KIRWEN, Margaret mms. DOYLE
1889 JanQ Oldham Vol 08D Pg 726
KIRWEN, Elizabeth mms. DOYLE
1891 DecQ Oldham Vol 08D Pg 690
KIRWEN, CATHERINE mms. DOYLE
1894 SepQ Oldham Vol 08D Pg 658
Where / how are you seeing Daniel on 1881 Census?
Where / how are you seeing Ann on 1891 Census?
That is the wrong family - it is an Oldham family
Daniel and Ann have Catherine baptised in Liverpool 1886 - St Brigids church - see my previous post xx
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Where / how are you seeing Daniel on 1881 Census?
Where / how are you seeing Ann on 1891 Census?
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Where / how are you seeing Daniel on 1881 Census?
Where / how are you seeing Ann on 1891 Census?
Those census details are in previous thread
Related thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813792.
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@pauline I have their child Ann’s baptism and death (only 13 months old) they were at Hornby street, Liverpool at this time - 1870 I believe xx
So confusing this is lol
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Thankyou everyone for jumping on, I am totally stuck with it all now which to me, possibly means incorrect details..
I have baptism records for some of Daniel and Anna children
Ann
John
William
Mary Ann
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@pauline I have their child Ann’s baptism and death (only 13 months old) they were at Hornby street, Liverpool at this time - 1870 I believe xx
So confusing this is lol
HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE - 1870 - THEY DIDN'T MARRY UNTIL 1878
I am confused ...lol
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I think this is your Daniels death....
Daniel Kerwin, age 51, death registered in Liverpool in 1888.
This matches with Liverpool Workhouse entry....
17 May 1888, Daniel Kirwin, 44, of Hornby Street, R.C., admitted self, wife at same address, discharged/died 1888....from the Relifious Creed.
Also, admitted 19 Sept 1888, Daniel Kirwin, 44, labourer, from Hornby Street, wife Ann, note says Bronch?
Other children registered at Liverpool, MMN Doyle....prior to marriage in 1878...
Daniel Kirvin, 1867
Patrick Kervin, 1871
William Kervin, 1874
James Kervin, 1876.
Also of interest...
British Army Records
Daniel Kirwan, Collier, b1842, Ballybrahum, Roscommon, Ireland, Private 73 Reg of Foot, attested 18 Aug 1864 at Liverpool, aged 22, found unfit, of bad character, discharged aged 26 at Liverpool in 1871, service number 1120
1871 Worldwide Army Index
Daniel Kerwin, service number 1120, Private 73 Reg at Royal Victoria Hospital, Netley.
Jo :)
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I think this is your Daniels death....
Daniel Kerwin, age 51, death registered in Liverpool in 1888.
This matches with Liverpool Workhouse entry....
17 May 1888, Daniel Kirwin, 44, of Hornby Street, R.C., admitted self, wife at same address, discharged/died 1888....from the Relifious Creed.
Also, admitted 19 Sept 1888, Daniel Kirwin, 44, labourer, from Hornby Street, wife Ann, note says Bronch?
Other children registered at Liverpool, MMN Doyle....prior to marriage in 1878...
Daniel Kirvin, 1867
Patrick Kervin, 1871
William Kervin, 1874
James Kervin, 1876.
Also of interest...
British Army Records
Daniel Kirwan, Collier, b1842, Ballybrahum, Roscommon, Ireland, Private 73 Reg of Foot, attested 18 Aug 1864 at Liverpool, aged 22, found unfit, of bad character, discharged aged 26 at Liverpool in 1871, service number 1120
1871 Worldwide Army Index
Daniel Kerwin, service number 1120, Private 73 Reg at Royal Victoria Hospital, Netley.
Jo :)
Wow where did you find this? Xx
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thankyou :)
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Hi Jaimee,
I had another look at this today and don’t think the 1888 death for Daniel is correct.
1891 Ann with children Patrick, John & Mary Ann, listed as married.
Then several entries in the Liverpool Workhouse....
1894
Ann Kervin, 48, wife of Daniel, lab, RC, unknown, from 116 Portland Street, and daughter Mary Ann, 12, on next line, to Kirkdale Industrial House.
A death registered for a Daniel Kirwin, 54, Manchester, Dec Qtr, Vol 8B, Page 159.
Ann back in the Workhouse in 1909, now the widow of Daniel
Readmitted in 1910, 60, son Patrick at 25 Newsham Street, widow of Daniel
Readmitted in 1911, from 18 R’ Kiln Lane, widow of Daniel
And in 1914, age 64, and 1915, age 69, widow of Daniel.
Anne Kerwin, age 62, death registered Liverpool 1915, Dec Qtr, Vol 8B, Page 115.
Son James most likely is the death registered in 1876.
1900 - Mary Ann married John Walker
1894 - Patrick married Alice Stapleton
1901 - 12 Newsham Street Liverpool
Patrick Kirvan, 26, dock labourer, b Liverpool
Alice , wife, 25
Mary, dau, 3
Patrick, son, 10mths
Ann Kirwin, sister (obviously should be mother), widow, 49, Fruit Hawker, b Liverpool
1917 - Patrick admitted to Liverpool Workhouse, wife Alice noted as in R?Hill Asylum
Daniel b1867
1890 (19 Nov 1890 - 7 Feb 1891) Daniel Kerwin, b Liverpool, Fireman aboard Texan
1911 Bristol (household of James Davies)
Daniel Kervin, boarder, married, 44, marine fireman, b Liverpool
Jo :)
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Wow this is incredible, Thankyou for taking the time out of your day to find this, I’ve been scratching my head for so long on him, and not only have you found info on him but also his family..
Very much appreciated. Thankyou
Jaimee x
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That’s good, Jo.
I just have one query re Daniel’s death. Why the one in Manchester?
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I did find a family with similar names in Manchester so I wonder if it is possibly him
Jaimee
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Yes there is a Daniel in Manchester in 1891.
I just thought it best to query in case I had misunderstood.
The Liverpool Workhouse record looks correct re the address.
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1901 - 12 Newsham Street Liverpool
Patrick Kirvan, 26, dock labourer, b Liverpool
Alice , wife, 25
Mary, dau, 3
Patrick, son, 10mths
Ann Kirwin, sister (obviously should be mother), widow, 49, Fruit Hawker, b Liverpool
1917 - Patrick admitted to Liverpool Workhouse, wife Alice noted as in R?Hill Asylum
Jo :)
Alice Kirwin
Rainhill asylum, Lancashire,
Admitted 12 Apr 1907
Died 8 Jun 1938
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My apologies.... I shouldn’t try to read my notes late at night....
The Daniel Kirvan b. 1835, living in Manchester in 1891 is a blacksmith (as per earlier census &
marriage records), his death is in Manchester in 1894 and is noted as being a blacksmith.
The Liverpool Catholic Burials have the following....
Daniel Kirwin, 58, buried 28/29 May 1896 at Ford Cemetery Liverpool, from 44 Commercial Road. The only matching registration that I can find is in West Derby, 1896, 2Qtr, Vol 8B, Page 253.
I’m sure I had seen this as registered in Manchester but can’t find it now? I will check again later today after work :)
This fits with Daniel dying between 1894 & 1901 when Ann goes from wife to widow.
I would assume that Daniel travelled to find work which is why he is not with the family in 1891.
Also....Ann’s Workhouse records show him to be a either a labourer or a chemical worker?
Cheers, Jo :)
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Hi Jaimee,
The only other possible death I can see is Daniel Kirwin, b1844, died 1919 in Bury Lancashire (except that Ann now lists herself as a widow).
You may need to buy one or both of the certificates.
More on the children....
Daniel Kirvin, s/o Daniel, of 16 Hopwood St, married Elizabeth Jones d/o Thomas Jones 17 Aug 1896
He is then found on plenty of Liverpool Crew Lists until next seen as a boarder in Bristol (as previous)
His wife Elizabeth is at 15 Caradoc St Liverpool by herself in 1901 and I can’t find her after that.
Catherine Kirvin, 16mths, buried 1 May 1887 at Ford Cemetery, from Hornby Street, as per Liverpool Catholic Burials.
Mary Ann and John Walker are at 40 Epsom St Liverpool in 1901....
John Walker, 19, flour worker, b. Liverpool
Mary A Walker, 18
Alexander 0
The following Walker children registered in Liverpool with MMN Kirvin/Kirvan
1901 Alexander
1902 James
1905 Daniel
1907 Patrick
1909 Annie
1909 Margaret (twins)
1912 John
1914 Mary Ann
1916 William
She seems to have had a hard life....plenty of entries in the Liverpool Workhouse...
Eg. 1909 Liverpool Workhouse
MaryAnn Walker, 27, of 138 Burlington Road, RC, mother Ann Kerwin of 25 Newsham St
Patrick, 2
Annie born
Margaret born
No sign of son William Kirvin (1874) after the 1881 census....except for a possible assault charge in 1896?
Jo :)
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Thankyou again, so fascinating :D :D :D :D :D I find it incredible that you can be looking for so long, then an outsider can find new things in a short while.. thankyou for all of your help :)
Jaimee x
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It may be that Ann being listed as married in 1891 was an error.
Are there any Workhouse records for DmK in the Workhouse?
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Ann listed as married on 1891 census and as wife of Daniel in 1894 Workhouse entry, this changes to widow on 1901 census and subsequent Workhouse entries. Daniel admitted in 1888, husband of Ann, is the only Workhouse entry I can find. There is a Daniel Kirwin, b1844 in Ireland on the 1891 Scotland census as a lodger and a labourer but he is listed as single....that is the only other possible census record I could see?
I feel the 1896 burial is the strongest option for Daniel but I’m not sure why it would be registered as West Derby if buried at Liverpool? Buying the certificate may be the next step.
Jo :)
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I wonder if Ford Cemetery May have any more information on the death of DK in 1896? It may be worth contacting them to ask :)
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The Liverpool Catholic Burials have the following....
Daniel Kirwin, 58, buried 28/29 May 1896 at Ford Cemetery Liverpool, from 44 Commercial Road. The only matching registration that I can find is in West Derby, 1896, 2Qtr, Vol 8B, Page 253.
I feel the 1896 burial is the strongest option for Daniel but I’m not sure why it would be registered as West Derby if buried at Liverpool? Buying the certificate may be the next step.
West Derby, despite the name, is Liverpool. Lord Derby owned a lot of land outside the old town/city, and eventually it was developed and is now included in Liverpool. The name survives as a reminder. The West Derby registration district where Daniel Kirwin's death was registered was made up of the parishes on this list: https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/west%20derby.html
I have the advantage of being married to a Liverpudlian :D
Carol
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A modern map of Commercial road shows as Kirkdale district.
1891 2965/19 (Ancestry has them as Kermes)
44 Commercial Road
Daniel Kerwin 60 yrs Licensed Broker Pawn b Wexford, Ireland
Bridget Kerwin 48 yrs b Dublin
Patrick Kerwin 14 yrs b Liverpool
Bridget Kerwin 10 yrs b Liverpool
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A modern map of Commercial road shows as Kirkdale district.
Kirkdale is on the list of parishes in West Derby RD (see reply #30).
Carol
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A modern map of Commercial road shows as Kirkdale district.
Kirkdale is on the list of parishes in West Derby RD (see reply #30).
Carol
Sorry, Carol for not linking it. Yes I am familiar with Liverpool/Kirkdale /West Derby. It can be confusing when people just state born Liverpool etc :)
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Well no idea of his death? Somewhere between 1894 & 1901.... I think he was a bit a scoundrel though and could have gone anywhere....changed his name...in prison?
He is in the Manchester Prison Registers in 1876...
Daniel Kirvin, found upon a certain dwelling house for an unlawful purpose at C.P.C.??, 1 calendar month hard labour, abt 35, swarthy complexion, grey hair, brown eyes, labourer, b Roscommon, single, no settled home, RC, no relations....
Jo :)
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That might not be him though Jo.
There are a few DKs around.
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Sorry, Carol for not linking it. Yes I am familiar with Liverpool/Kirkdale /West Derby. It can be confusing when people just state born Liverpool etc :)
I thought you'd know, but the explanation was intended to clarify things for Jo :)
Carol
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Thanks Carol, as an Aussie it always helps to have the counties, etc clarified :) :) :)
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ordered the 1896 death certificate, you are right he does sound like a bit of a scoundrel lol.. hard to find him lol. birth and death, doesn't help that there were a lot of DKs around and with different name variations.. if only we could go back in time and talk to them lol xxx
jaimee
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takes so long to receive the certificates from the gro index lol... I want to know haha xx
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The 1896 death certificate for Daniel kerwin is unfortunately a child aged 16 months, parents Mary and Edward. Hopefully il come across his soon.
Thankyou everyone for helping xx
Jaimee :)
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Jaimee,
If you look on this site https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/menu.asp
It shows the ages at death - up to 1918, I think.
Daniel Kerwin 1 yr Liverpool registration district.
If you read back around post #28 on discusses this.
The death referred to there was registered in West Derby. June quarter. 8b pg 253
Daniel Kirwin 58 yrs
This, we thought, tied in with a burial for D K of 44 Commercial Road. That Daniel is at that address in 1891 with a family but I am not sure if he is evident in earlier censuses.
Heywood