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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Chris1286 on Monday 17 June 19 10:23 BST (UK)
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Hi has anyone have information on the following person. He is a grandfather of a friend of mine. He is called the above name and was born so she thinks in Ireland. He married her grandmother Rose Ellen Parry on the 17.11.1902 at Machen, South Wales.
They had a child called Margaret Ann Timons, born 13.4.1907 Cwmcan.
Martin died in 1909 aged 38 years. I can find nothing about him on Ancestry?
Thanks. Chris Reeves
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It’s unfortunate if the timing means he doesn’t appear in a UK census, first appearing in Wales in 1902 and dying before 1911. Has your friend obtained his marriage certificate, for paternal details?
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Children:
Annie Timmons, mmn Parry, Sep qtr 1903 Newport
Kathleen Timmons, mmn Parry, Sep qtr 1905 Newport
Margaret Ann Timmons, mmn Parry, Jun qtr 1907 Newport
William Leonard Timmons, mmn Parry, Mar qtr 1911 Newport
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Yes it gives his father name also as martin Timmons or Timons?
Chris
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It’s unfortunate if the timing means he doesn’t appear in a UK census, first appearing in Wales in 1902 and dying before 1911. Has your friend obtained his marriage certificate, for paternal details?
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If he was in Ireland in 1901 he will appear in a 'U.K. census.' However, there are several possibilities in Ireland so you'll need more details to confirm a match.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
Typed before father's name was posted
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Sorry - should have been clearer that I meant it would have been helpful to find him locally in Wales in 1901, near the marriage place for confidence that he was the right one! Nothing against Irish census obviously :)
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His birth registration should, in theory, also be online (registration of births started 1864) but I can't yet see a Martin T*m*ns with father Martin around that period. This is an illegitimate one with mother Mary (no father listed) so there's always the possibility he made up a father's name when he married or the birth was registered without a Christian name or under another surname.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
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Wonder if the following could possibly be him although it's all a bit confusing.
A Martin Timmins birth is reg'd Mar.1871 Manchester, mmn Moran
A Martin Timmins marriage Dec.1868 Manchester to an Ellen Kelly
1871 Census - Manchester
Martin Timmins 32 born Ireland
Ellen Timmins 23 ditto
Thomas Timmins 1 born Manchester
At this point there is no trace of the Martin Timmins born Mar.1871 nor is there a death entry - also, there is no birth registered for the Thomas Timmins bc.1870 Manchester. Could Thomas and Martin junior be one and the same?
Martin and Ellen still in Manchester 1881 and 1891 - son 'Thomas' with them 1881 but no trace of him in this name after then, plus 2 daughters Mary E. bc.1874 and Eliza bc.1879 had been born BUT their mmn shown as Daley.
All confusing as I say in that Martin married an Ellen Kelly, no birth entry for a son Thomas bc.1870 Manchester (was he actually Martin birth Mar.l1871 but mmn shown as Moran, and then 2 daughters born whose mmn this time given as Daley. All Irish surnames but 3 different ones!!
Martin Timmins and wife Ellen were the only couple of this name in Manchester. He appears to have died 1894 Prestwich, Lancashire so that would tie in with Martin younger stating his father was dead when he married in 1902. Was he called Thomas by the family in 1871 and 1881 as it was confusing have 2 Martins in the household but he married (and subsequently died) under his real name of Martin? Who knows.
Anyway, thought it worth mentioning this for consideration.
Annette
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Thanks for the info. I will get back to my Friend. She might have some further info?
Chris
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Martin Timmons had a sister called Lizzie who married a O'Neil, he died on the 22.10.1923. Lizzie went on the live at Victoria Street, Birkenhead. The family story is that Martin's mother died in Ireland and the father brought the children to Liverpool. On Martin Timmons marriage certificate in 1902 father Martin timmons is a cooper. Chris
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Found possible family in Ireland but it's going to take me a few minutes to type...
Martin Timmins, sieve maker, m. Catherine Murphy
1. Anne Eliza (1864)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1864/03624/2337961.pdf
2. Martin (1865)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03550/2307043.pdf
3. Patrick (1867)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03495/2284513.pdf
4. James William (1869)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1869/03381/2239749.pdf
5. Patrick Joseph (1871)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03282/2202950.pdf
6. Charles Francis (1872)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03232/2184730.pdf
7. George (1873)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03170/2162873.pdf
8. Thomas (1875)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1875/03111/2140960.pdf
9. William (1876)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03041/2115187.pdf
10. George Albert (1880)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02859/2047743.pdf
I can't see a death for Catherine Timmins in Ireland- perhaps, if this is the correct family, she died in England? The occupation of sieve maker for husband Martin would probably fit with him being a cooper.
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I think that is the family. Thanks very much. Can you go back further than Martin and catherine. Chris Reeves
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I'm not trying to go back further. Before even attempting any Irish research need to establish if this is the correct family.
There's a death for a Martin Timmins (age 54 to born c1840) in Prestwich district in Apr./June 1894 quarter but not sure this is one you are looking for.
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There's a death for a Martin Timmins (age 54 to born c1840) in Prestwich district in Apr./June 1894 quarter but not sure this is one you are looking for.
This is the Martin Timmins (married to Ellen) that was mentioned in my earlier posting.
Annette
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If this Irish family is correct, meaning Martin lied about his age when he married since he was born in 1865, his sister 'Lizzie' could be Anne Elizabeth Timmons who married a Felix O'Neill in 1903 Birkenhead. Last census shows she was born circa 1865 New Ross, Wexford which would fit with the Anne Eliza Timmins b.2/2/1864, New Ross, Wexford, dau. of Martin Timmins and Catherine nee Murphy.
Felix O'Neill bc.1864, death reg'd Dec.qtr.1923 Birkenhead (which would tie in with 'Lizzie's' husband died in October 1923).
Anne E. O'Neill bc.1864, died 1950 Birkenhead.
Annette
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Last post looks good, Annette.
I think I may have found Martin & sons James, Patrick & Thomas but need to check a few more resources before I can be sure my hunch is correct.
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Now fairly certain I've tracked down Martin & quite a few of the sons and it does explain why there didn't seem to be a death certificate in Ireland, England or Wales.
5 Apr.1893 "Lord Gough" arrived Philadelphia, Penn. from Liverpool, England: Martin Timmons, age 53, cooper, intended residence- Philadelphia
1900 census- Camden, Camden, New Jersey (just across the river from Philadelphia): Martin Timmons, born May 1840 Ireland, to US 1893. In household of son Thomas.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M9NP-VMT
Martin Timmons died 1911 & buried Camden, N.J.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/145529742 (searching for Timmons in that cemetery brings up more of his family)
Son Patrick died 1944 N.Y.C., also buried Camden
death https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WP8-HXK
Son Thomas buried Camden-
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/145529777/thomas-timmons
Son James William m.(1893 N.J.) Catherine Kelly
Marriage https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FZP9-YP5
1900 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M9NG-JP6 (born Apr.1870)
1915 NJ state census https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV93-NVBG (born Apr.1869)
1920 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M459-6VN
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/145540169/james-w-timmons
I think first son George might be the infant George Timmins died 1874 New Ross district.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRBS-QWB
More on the others sons shortly...
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An online tree which has some extremely dodgy entries shows son Patrick Timmons died 1946 Wexford-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1946/04607/4221568.pdf
However, that death might be for another Patrick Timmons-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1885/10870/5969883.pdf (father listed as Moses)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Enniscorthy_Urban/Irish_Street/1787653/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Enniscorthy_Urban/Irish_Street/680249/
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Could this be George [Albert] in 1901?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSJT-BSQ
Now there's a George Albert Timmons, father Moses, m.(1902) Lily Hobday/Holiday-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNF9-VXK
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNF9-7QH
Possible 2nd marriage (1915) to Emily S. Cook?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:266K-12C
Possible death 1922 Birkenhead-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVHW-B834
If this is the correct George Albert then perhaps the Patrick with father Moses in Enniscorthy in correct Patrick Timmons.
Added- this George Albert Timmons might have been born in England
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Charles Francis Timmons m.(1890) Pontypridd, Wales to Margaret Long
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DFC-JW6
1891 census- https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:41L9-93Z
Margaret has died by 1911 but Francis & children here- note one of the sons called Martin-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW6Y-JWN
Martin Joseph born 1899- https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2FHW-2CK
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Thanks to everyone and their efforts. Martin Timmons indeed had a sister called Ann Elizabeth Timmons, who married Felix O'Neill. He died on the 22.10.1923 at Birkenhead. My friend has a letter sent to her mother from Ann which mentions Felix and his death. There was always a family rumour that some of the family went to America. So I think that is the family. Once again thanks to everyone for their help.
Chris Reeves
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Plenty more on the family to find now that you have an idea where they ended up.