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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: roycymru on Thursday 06 June 19 13:22 BST (UK)
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Hello
Hoping for your help again. I have a William Evans (Bachelor) marrying a Margaret Jones (Spinster, address Pontyberem) on 12 Mar 1882 at St. John's Church, Pontyberem. Margaret was age 21 with father Tomas Jones whose occupation was Pattern Maker (I think, please see attached?). In census records her birth location is "Llanelly" but this could include places like Llannon or Pontyberem.
I thought tracing Margaret in 1861 (depending on when she was actually born), 1871 and 1881 would be relatively straight forward, given the more unusual occupation of her father and Thomas as a first name of her father isn't as common as some other names, but am having no luck. Can the more eagle eyed of you help?
I am also having trouble finding what exactly a Pattern Maker did in the 19th century, was it to do with materials or metals or something else. Google isn't helping much with this. So any info on this would also be appreciated
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In a Dictionary of Occupational Terms there are 12 different categories of Pattern Maker, so it depends very much on the industry.
This has been asked before on RootsChat see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=482045.0
Stan
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From the OED pattern-maker n. a person who makes patterns; spec. (a) a person who arranges textile patterns for weaving; (b) a person who makes patterns for castings.
Stan
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not sure if this occupation is similar enough
1861 3 Club House, Glyn, Llannon RG9/4117 folio 9 pg 14
Thomas Jones head mar 26 engine fitter
Betsy wife 23 dressmaker b.Llangendeirne
David brother 20 iron moulder
Mary sister 17 dressmaker
Sarah sister 10
Margaret dau under 1 month
all born Llanelly apart from Betsy
1871 RG10/5471 folio 12 pg 17 but no Margaret at home
Different family in 1881 head by Thomas Jones pattern maker RG11/5372 folio 128 pg 34. I'll try to trace him back...
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not the 1881 one, he does have a daughter Margaret in 1871 but she's only 4, so too young to be yours.
Worth noting that his occupation was pattern maker, clerk checking classifications noted iron manufacturing. Also, in 1871 he was a joiner.
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From a Dictionary of Occupational Terms
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From the time and area, most certainly making patterns for casting metal.
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https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/llanelly.html
The above links to a table showing the boundary changes over the years.
Not sure exactly what was at the Industrial Museum site on the outskitrs of Kidwelly, tinplate I think. Knowing just how far workers walked in those days, it would be within their ( not mine !! ) walking distance.
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Thanks for all the feedback to date. As suggested, given how industrial Llanelly was then, something to do with metal seems the most likely. The engine fitter with brother a moulder seem a good possibility, as he may have started as a fitter bit joined his brother in the Tin/Iron works and ended up doing something more specialised. Any sign of him and his family in 1871 and 1881 as it might give more clues?
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the 1871 I'd found with no Margaret isn't the correct family as tracing them matches to a certain Jones family using Gower as a middle name. And the Thomas of that family doesn't have the same siblings as in 1861.
There is this entry in 1871
93 Dillwyn St, Westfa RG10/5465 folio 99 pg 20
Thomas Jones widower 35 moulder at iron foundry b. Llanelly
He married Catherine Jones sept qtr 1872 Llanelly vol 11a pg 1023
76 Dillwyn St RG11/5372 folio 125 pg 4
Thomas Jones head mar 45 moulder in iron foundry b. Llanelly
Catherine wife 36 b. Llanwrda
Edwin son 8 b. Llanelly
+ 3 boarders
There's this 1851 census entry with Thomas and siblings that match the ones in 1861
Blaen Lliedy, Glyn HO107/2469 folio 243 pg 7
William Jones head mar 46 carpenter & farmer 60 acres b. Llangyndeyrn
Mary wife 42
Thomas son 16
Margret dau 15
William son 14
John son 12
David son 10
Mary dau 7
Rachel dau 5
Daniel son 3
Sarah dau 8 months
Eliza Davies grand dau 8 months
all born Llanelly except William senior
Another possibility is that Thomas died early. Possible for widowed Elizabeth/Betsy
1871 Cottage Plough, Glyn RG10/5471 folio 9 pg 11
Elizabeth Jones head widow 32
Margaret dau 10
William son 6
all born Llanelly
1881 Plough no 2, Glyn RG11/5378 folio 10 pg 14
David Roberts head mar 46 coal miner b. Llannon
Elizabeth wife 42 b. Llangendeirne
Margaret Jones dau 20 seamstress b. Llanelly
William Jones son 16 labourer at coal works b. Llanelly
Mary Ann Roberts dau 9 b. Llanelly
Joseph son 7 b. Llanelly
Jane dau 4 b. Llanelly
marriage reg dec qtr 1871 Llanelly vol 11a pg 1096
birth regs
Mary Ann Roberts march qtr 1872 Llanelly vol 11a pg 705 mmn Williams
Joseph Roberts june qtr 1874 Llanelly vol 11a pg 834 mmn Williams
2 possible birth regs for Margaret with mmn Williams in june qtr 1861
marriage reg
Thomas Jones & Elizabeth Williams june qtr 1860 Llanelly vol 11a pg 817
This seems more likely scenario.
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the 1871 I'd found with no Margaret isn't the correct family as tracing them matches to a certain Jones family using Gower as a middle name. And the Thomas of that family doesn't have the same siblings as in 1861.
There is this entry in 1871
93 Dillwyn St, Westfa RG10/5465 folio 99 pg 20
Thomas Jones widower 35 moulder at iron foundry b. Llanelly
He married Catherine Jones sept qtr 1872 Llanelly vol 11a pg 1023
76 Dillwyn St RG11/5372 folio 125 pg 4
Thomas Jones head mar 45 moulder in iron foundry b. Llanelly
Catherine wife 36 b. Llanwrda
Edwin son 8 b. Llanelly
+ 3 boarders
There's this 1851 census entry with Thomas and siblings that match the ones in 1861
Blaen Lliedy, Glyn HO107/2469 folio 243 pg 7
William Jones head mar 46 carpenter & farmer 60 acres b. Llangyndeyrn
Mary wife 42
Thomas son 16
Margret dau 15
William son 14
John son 12
David son 10
Mary dau 7
Rachel dau 5
Daniel son 3
Sarah dau 8 months
Eliza Davies grand dau 8 months
all born Llanelly except William senior
Another possibility is that Thomas died early. Possible for widowed Elizabeth/Betsy
1871 Cottage Plough, Glyn RG10/5471 folio 9 pg 11
Elizabeth Jones head widow 32
Margaret dau 10
William son 6
all born Llanelly
1881 Plough no 2, Glyn RG11/5378 folio 10 pg 14
David Roberts head mar 46 coal miner b. Llannon
Elizabeth wife 42 b. Llangendeirne
Margaret Jones dau 20 seamstress b. Llanelly
William Jones son 16 labourer at coal works b. Llanelly
Mary Ann Roberts dau 9 b. Llanelly
Joseph son 7 b. Llanelly
Jane dau 4 b. Llanelly
marriage reg dec qtr 1871 Llanelly vol 11a pg 1096
birth regs
Mary Ann Roberts march qtr 1872 Llanelly vol 11a pg 705 mmn Williams
Joseph Roberts june qtr 1874 Llanelly vol 11a pg 834 mmn Williams
2 possible birth regs for Margaret with mmn Williams in june qtr 1861
marriage reg
Thomas Jones & Elizabeth Williams june qtr 1860 Llanelly vol 11a pg 817
This seems more likely scenario.
Hi Osprey
Thank you for taking the time and effort to do this, very much appreciated. I will look at this in more detail this evening after work. The mention of the Plough is very significant. Margaret’s husband William Skym Evans (parents David Evans and Margaret Skym) had a brother John Evans born 1863 at the Plough! So unless the Plough was some sort of local “maternity unit” there are family links to the Plough. Plus the Plough was in the same area of the Glyn Hamlet (Pontyberem essentially) where William Skym Evans was living at the time they got married.
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I have often got onto the right track by various means:
Tracing lives of siblings
Tracing others living in the same buildings
Seeing where children live
Finding more about witnesses to marriages, etc.
It's often thrown up links that have been helpful.
Good luck!
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Death; although a more morbid route, offers a mine of information. If you know when and where someone died, search the local newspapers for funeral mentions and even anniversaries of their death. They tend to list those present, also relationship to the deceased. I have found so many this way, even a year or two later.
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Hi. Does anyone currently subscribe to findmypast? I think the marriage Thomas Jones & Elizabeth Williams june qtr 1860 Llanelly vol 11a pg 817 is in their Parish records
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=life+events+%28bmds%29&collection=parish+marriages&firstname=elizabeth&firstname_variants=true&lastname=williams&eventyear=1860&eventyear_offset=0&spousefirstname=thomas&spousefirstname_variants=true&spouselastname=jones&keywordsplace_proximity=5&sourcecountry=great+britain
under Pontyberem. Details on this entry would be gratefully received
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because there were only 2 names on the page, I'd assumed it was a civil marriage. :-[
25 May 1860 St John's Chapel, Llanelly
Thomas Jones full carpenter Tai'r Clwb father William Jones deceased
Elizabeth Williams full dressmaker Heol y Capel, Pontyberem father Joshua Williams labourer
witnesses Joshua Williams & William Jones, all signed.
I'm pretty sure the family for Thomas I gave is correct because of the siblings on the 1861 census and father William was a farmer.
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possible marriage in Llangendeirne 27 Oct 1826 Joshua Williams otp & Margaret Morris of Llanelly, witnesses John George & Thomas Jenkins. All signed apart from Margaret.
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1861 Pontyberem, Llangendeirne RG9/4135 folio 87 pg 20
Joshua Williams head mar 58 labourer in works b. Llangendeirne
Margaret wife 54 b. Llanelly
1851 Fancy, Llanelly HO107/2469 folio 213 pg 8
Margaret Williams head mar 47 labourer's wife
Betsy dau 12 dress maker prentice
Jane dau 2
all born Llanelly
Forgot to mention that Mrs Roberts is Betsy again on 1891 & 1901 census entries.
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1841 Fancy HO107/1379/7 folio 24 pg 5
Margt Williams 37 haulier
David 14
Joseph 11
Mary 9
Margt 5
Elizth 2
baptisms in Llangendeirne
11 Feb 1827 David Williams son of Joshua, farmer, & Margaret of Blaenisfael, Llangunnor
20 Sep 1829 Joseph Williams, son of Joseph, farmer, & Margaret of Blaenisfael, Llangunnor
in Llannon
5 Feb 1839 Elizabeth Williams dau of Joshua, farmer, and Margaret of Furnace
haven't spotted Joshua in 1841 or 1851 as yet. Possible death reg aged 65 jun qtr 1865 Carmarthen vol 11a pg 481
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baptism in Llangendeirne 14 Jan 1802 for Joshua William son of John or more likely Thomas, not very clear.
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Thanks again for all this excellent info
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;D
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Hi Roy
Tomas Jones lived at Coedllinau which is the name for the property 23/24 Heol Capel Ifan, Pontyberem and is adjacent to the land of the Fancy where Accommodation road/c road and miners path leads to the old Pentremawr mine as well as to the old hamlet known as Fancy/Ffansi.
I'm not sure if your Tomas Jones is related to the Jones' who lived at the Fancy.