RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: Chris Koons on Tuesday 04 June 19 08:21 BST (UK)
-
I hope someone can help me straighten out my G-Grandmother!
Her name was Martha Ellen Palin & G-Grandfather’s name was Herbert Sant
On the 1939 Register, Martha gives her DOB as 23/4/82 & Herbert gives his as 7/4/78. This register is definitely the right people as it also lists my great-uncle John with his twin & their correct birthday, who I knew to be a twin (according to my dad).
Going backwards, the problems begin with the marriage certificate. The only marriage certificate I can turn up for Herbert Sant & Martha is dated 4/4/1903, which gives Martha’s surname as Palin , her father’s name as Charles & makes sense since their 1st child, my Grandpa, Charles William Sant was born March 1904, however the marriage document lists Herbert’s father as George, when I know it was William (per my dad), so not the right document?
I can also find no trace of Martha with a DOB of 1882, anywhere in cheshirebmd, ancestry, or family search. Initially, I thought she was the illegitimate daughter of Agnes Palin, but that Martha was baptized in 1880, 2 years before she claimed she was born, which would be a neat trick.
Help! My head hurts!
-
There's a birth registered in Q3 1882 in Nantwich of a Martha Ellen Palin, mother's maiden name Whitlow. Is that her?
And a marriage in Q4 1877, also in Nantwich between a Charles Palin and an Alice Whitlow.
STG
-
Welcome to Rootschat :)
I assume this is the family, living in Stanthorne in the 1911 census.
Herbert aged 33, born Middlewich
Martha Ellen, aged 29 born Minsull Vernon - married 8 years, 2 children
Charles William, 7, born Stanthorne
Fred, 4, born Stanthorne
Both children have mother's maiden name of Palin (GRO)
-
Welcome to rootschat
The 1903 marriage certificate gives Martha's age as 20 which would tie in with this birth
Birth Sep qtr 1882
Palin Martha Ellen Mothers maiden surname Whitlow
Nantwich 8a 359
Parents marriage
Marriages Dec qtr 1877
Palin Charles
Whitlow Alice
Northwich reg district 8a 393
-
Welcome to Rootschat :)
I assume this is the family, living in Stanthorne in the 1911 census.
Herbert aged 33, born Middlewich
Martha Ellen, aged 29 born Minsull Vernon - married 8 years, 2 children
Charles William, 7, born Stanthorne
Fred, 4, born Stanthorne
Both children have mother's maiden name of Palin (GRO)
This is the right family but on the one I’m looking at, both children have the surname Sant. Herbert was an alkali labourer.
-
Welcome to rootschat
The 1903 marriage certificate gives Martha's age as 20 which would tie in with this birth
Birth Sep qtr 1882
Palin Martha Ellen Mothers maiden surname Whitlow
Nantwich 8a 359
Parents marriage
Marriages Dec qtr 1877
Palin Charles
Whitlow Alice
Northwich reg district 8a 393
Good info! Thank you!! I’ll check it out in the morning... I live in Kansas, so it’s currently the middle of the night. Lol
-
Herbert’s father was indeed William rather than George, by the looks of earlier records - but that doesn’t mean you have the wrong marriage certificate for Herbert and Martha if all the other information on it makes it clear it is the right one.
Sometimes mistakes were made - people either didn’t know the correct first name of their father (especially in cases of illegitimacy, estrangement or early bereavement) or there was an error by the minister or registrar in recording the information. (Sometimes people born out of wedlock invented a father’s name to avoid the stigma of illegitimacy, but that is not the case here).
In this case William Sant had died aged 50 on 3 April 1893 when Herbert was a few days short of his 15th birthday (sadly William died in Chester Asylum, where he had been admitted on 29 November 1892). Perhaps Herbert simply knew him as “Father”, and made a mistake as to his name on his marriage years later?
-
Chris,
No direct help with your query but, some years ago I researched my late wife's family history and her lineage includes Palins, from the same area and period, and my guess is they are related to yours.
(Includes a Martha Jane born Crew in 1871 as I recall)
If of any interest send me a Personal Message.
Jolyon
-
Herbert’s father was indeed William rather than George, by the looks of earlier records - but that doesn’t mean you have the wrong marriage certificate for Herbert and Martha if all the other information on it makes it clear it is the right one.
Sometimes mistakes were made - people either didn’t know the correct first name of their father (especially in cases of illegitimacy, estrangement or early bereavement) or there was an error by the minister or registrar in recording the information. (Sometimes people born out of wedlock invented a father’s name to avoid the stigma of illegitimacy, but that is not the case here).
In this case William Sant had died aged 50 on 3 April 1893 when Herbert was a few days short of his 15th birthday (sadly William died in Chester Asylum, where he had been admitted on 29 November 1892). Perhaps Herbert simply knew him as “Father”, and made a mistake as to his name on his marriage years later?
I realised, this morning, that Herbert’s eldest sibling was named George & as he was 14 years older than William, maybe he stood in for his father at Herbert’s wedding. Maybe there was also an element of embarrassment, that his father was admitted to & died in the asylum.
-
WHITLOW Alice PALIN Charles Middlewich, St Michael & All Angels Cheshire East 1063/3/90
the church they married in
................................................................................................
-
WHITLOW Alice PALIN Charles Middlewich, St Michael & All Angels Cheshire East 1063/3/90
the church they married in
................................................................................................
Thanks! St Michael & All Angels is also the church I grew up attending so... I feel like I’m home!
The Sant & Palin families are so intertwined, I have almost as many Palins in my tree as I do Sants & I was born a Sant. Lol
-
My Oakes family are same church and also in St Chad ,Over in 1700s
ADDED
As it is such a small area - any OAKES members in your tree ?
-
My Oakes family are same church and also in St Chad ,Over in 1700s
ADDED
As it is such a small area - any OAKES members in your tree ?
I do! I have 2, both named Martha...
Martha Oakes b. Abt 1725 Lower Peover, d. 1763
Martha Oakes b. 1823, Over, Cheshire, d. 1891
Any matches to your tree?
-
My Oakes family are same church and also in St Chad ,Over in 1700s
ADDED
As it is such a small area - any OAKES members in your tree ?
I do! I have 2, both named Martha...
Martha Oakes b. Abt 1725 Lower Peover, d. 1763
Martha Oakes b. 1823, Over, Cheshire, d. 1891
Any matches to your tree?
I will check now - hope this turns out to be a match - pretty certain the Lower Peover isn't in my tree - but the Over is a very strong chance
-
no luck
worth a try :)
any Trelfa - or Holland in your tree from Over ?
-
no luck
worth a try :)
:(
However, where there’s 1 Oakes, there are likely others! Lol
-
Ralph Oakes and Mary Trelfa married in St Chads 2nd January 1758 and had FOURTEEN CHILDREN - so yes - you are right ..lol
-
So, while we were chatting I decided to explore up another branch of my tree, on my paternal grandmother’s side, open up a census & who do I find living next door to my GGG-grandfather? Martha Oakes - the one from Over! Lmao They are from completely different ends of my tree. It must be a sign.
-
Hi. Just found this. The Oakes family connected to St Chad's- would they include Ralph, born probably around 1700 or a bit earlier (guesswork for now), and his daughter Hannah, baptised at St Chad Oct 1729? Who went onto marry John Ford in 1751? John Ford is a direct ancestor of my husband.
-
A William Sant 73 died in Sept qtr 1893 at the Lunatic asylum.
This one is buried in Overleigh Cemetery. Source, Overleigh Cemetery database. Not sure if it's relevant, but quite a coincidence .