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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: BourneGooner on Monday 03 June 19 07:55 BST (UK)
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This has taken some time to get my thoughts together and I feel almost compelled to write this, hopefully someone may read it and use it as a warning where DNA testing is concerned, and who knows this may prove slightly cathartic.
I’m not prepared to go into specific details but will say DNA testing has the ability to destroy lives and can have devastating consequences.
DNA testing is now constantly advertised on the TV, social media, newspaper everywhere under the glossy banners of Could you be descended from Vikings, Are related to Royalty, Could you be the heir to a £50 million pound estate etc. etc. just spit into this tube and all will be revealed.
Well a word of caution that spit into the tube could tear your family apart, I speak from experience DNA testing actually answered a question regarding a distant great grandfather I had for over a decade, HooRah! I thought…….then the dark side of DNA testing came to light and the consequences have been to almost tear a family apart, whether irreparably only time will tell.
I would urge anyone thinking of taking one of these tests seriously think before you spit into that tube and send of the little box. Are you prepared for the answers and consequences of what you’re about to do……I thought I was and have never been so wrong.
DNA can be a DANGEROUS “toy” to play with and once the DNA genie is out of the bottle, it won’t go back in.
I’m fully aware that 99% of people taking these tests it is just a bit of fun and may even prove useful, but don’t believe all the glossy ads, and brochures please, please be warned it can go horribly wrong.
I may not come back to what I thought was a fun hobby in genealogy for a while, who knows.
BourneGooner
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Hello All
DNA is no substitute for the thrill of the documentary paperchase either!
DNA is absolutely only one tool in the Family Historians toolbox, should anyone decide to try it.
Also don't fall out, there are genetically scientific proven reasons why a person's DNA doesn't match their Father's or Mother's DNA.
Because some couples had large families over 200 years and with family multiplication, you can be DNA related to 100s if not 1,000s of people alive today (which is going to need some hefty significant expensive research in some cases to work out).
There is no substitute for the paperwork and document chasing, regarding families.
If you might find, that you just might be related to a King ;D , you are still going to have to spend probably 1,000s of hours travelling all over the country to Archives and £1,000s thousands of pounds and many years finding the paperwork and documents to prove it!
A researcher made a good comment on Rootschat to the effect of I spend more hours ruling people out.
Don't listen to the adverts. It is sometimes hype!
Mark
This has taken some time to get my thoughts together and I feel almost compelled to write this, hopefully someone may read it and use it as a warning where DNA testing is concerned, and who knows this may prove slightly cathartic.
I’m not prepared to go into specific details but will say DNA testing has the ability to destroy lives and can have devastating consequences.
DNA testing is now constantly advertised on the TV, social media, newspaper everywhere under the glossy banners of Could you be descended from Vikings, Are related to Royalty, Could you be the heir to a £50 million pound estate etc. etc. just spit into this tube and all will be revealed.
Well a word of caution that spit into the tube could tear your family apart, I speak from experience DNA testing actually answered a question regarding a distant great grandfather I had for over a decade, HooRah! I thought…….then the dark side of DNA testing came to light and the consequences have been to almost tear a family apart, whether irreparably only time will tell.
I would urge anyone thinking of taking one of these tests seriously think before you spit into that tube and send of the little box. Are you prepared for the answers and consequences of what you’re about to do……I thought I was and have never been so wrong.
DNA can be a DANGEROUS “toy” to play with and once the DNA genie is out of the bottle, it won’t go back in.
I’m fully aware that 99% of people taking these tests it is just a bit of fun and may even prove useful, but don’t believe all the glossy ads, and brochures please, please be warned it can go horribly wrong.
I may not come back to what I thought was a fun hobby in genealogy for a while, who knows.
BourneGooner
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Can secrets, unearthed by DNA testing, be any worse than secrets revealed by the papertrail? Over 30 years ago my father discovered that his parents who brought him up were actually his grandparents, and that the lady he thought of was his sister, was actually his mother. This came as a surprise to me, but I'm aware that it is a very common occurrence. We now realise from documentation, and logic, that his extended family knew the truth, but kept it from him. By the time he found out most of his extended family were already dead so he could not discuss this with them. I realise that everybody did what they thought was right at the time, but it was still a shock.
Martin
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I suspect that the horrible secret that the OP has discovered is much closer to home. It's one thing finding out that a 3xgreat grandparent is not genetically your ancestor. However, realising that you are the result of an extra-marital affair that your father had no idea about can blow a family wide apart and destroy lives.
It's not a reason to avoid DNA tests, but the OP is right - there are risks.
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As you didn’t supply the full details of what your DNA test revealed, and it is perfectly understandable if you do not wish to do so, it is difficult to understand what has led you to give this warning.
You mention a “distant great grandfather” - a great grandfather is not a particularly distant ancestor I don’t think. Nor do I think it so close a relationship for his actions to affect those living today, though that is obviously not the case with your family. I may be wrong but I am guessing that your example somehow relates to illegitimacy, which is the only thing I can think of to explain such a rift in the family.
I think if each person enters DNA testing expecting illegitimacy or worse, then there can be no surprises. Yes, the ads are misleading, And persuasive for some, however they are obviously just marketing spin.
Any possible division within a family also depends on their attitudes - what divides one family may not divide another.
A connection I made through a relative’s DNA matches, discovered at the age of 50 that his father was not his father. He ended up meeting his biological father and continued researching his non biological father’s family tree and DNA matches. Although it was obviously a shock to him to make this discovery he coped very well with it I think, and found a new family he did not know existed.
I can’t think of any discoveries as a result of DNA test in my own family that would lead to a scenario like yours. Sad for your family that this has happened, but I think it would be the exception rather than the rule. Lets hope things sort themselves out within your family.
As mentioned, as you have not given full details it is difficult to comment with any background knowledge, so incorrect conclusions may have been drawn by me.
Good luck.
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Also don't fall out, there are genetically scientific proven reasons why a person's DNA doesn't match their Father's or Mother's DNA.
Apparently, DNA can also be acquired during certain medical procedures too?
Not knowing about a secret, I might be a little frustrated, but life is simply too short to fall out with family or anyone else, for that matter.
When someone tells a lie, to cover up a non-criminal secret, what about the spirit of forgiveness, when they admit the truth and show sorrow and remorse?
Martin, I can't agree more (both DNA and Paper trail documented research), when you delve into Family History you can also expect to find anything.
Mark
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I took mine under 'trepidation'
As my wonderful Poppa in his last months of Dementia -- had advised me that I was not his child....
I was broken absolutely and did not think it is possible to accept that this man who was 'God' to me could hurt me as he did..
It was viscious -- and he meant it to hurt..
He meant it to hurt because ---at the time I was his sole carer and my sister had sadly been taken from us .. so there was just me to 'get at' - for his frustration with the world....and his illness .. he had Vascular Dementia which sometimes you have good days when you do know who what and where..
ANYHOW it was too late for DNA then but when the opportunity came up I took it...
My Parents marriage had been a rocky one and Mother was a bit of a one.. so I had cause to consider that this could be a possibility..
However the results of my DNA place me SLAP bang amongst my Fathers line..
They also show that my Sisters son is my FULL nephew..
so hopefully that is evidence -
I would rather now NOT know an arguement against the proof I have accepted.. :) let me now go on blithely still loving my POPPA
xin
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We have all got skeletons in our cupboards, I’m luck that these were discussed in the family and known about. How other react is something you can’t control I’m afraid. There has been numerous stories in the newspapers both here and in the USA of people finding out everything was not as they thought it was.
The hobby family history is to look at the generations before us warts and all and find out about them. If you don’t find out this information then you have to accept that someone else might.
Regards
Panda
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We have all got skeletons in our cupboards, I’m luck that these were discussed in the family and known about. How other react is something you can’t control I’m afraid. There has been numerous stories in the newspapers both here and in the USA of people finding out everything was not as they thought it was.
The hobby family history is to look at the generations before us warts and all and find out about them. If you don’t find out this information then you have to accept that someone else might.
Regards
Panda
Some Family Historians will find illegitimacy, a murderer or even incest.
Regarding reacting.
Perhaps best not to react at all immediately, the spur of the moment reaction is never a good one however pious or correct we may feel (unless it is a life-saving decision to save human life and even they need a degree of thought sometimes).
As someone has said, we all make mistakes, so hopefully we can accept those of others and a subsequent lie.
But it is often how we react.
Diplomacy is the key and either saying (or hearing the word) sorry can go a long way. Difficult to say sometimes, but "sorry" is a most essential word, just like please and thank you, are.
I certainly would NOT want the trashy, agressive and often bitter, Jeremy Kyle Show, type of reation!
Mark
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Ruskie, You say "I can’t think of any discoveries as a result of DNA test in my own family that would lead to a scenario like yours. Sad for your family that this has happened, but I think it would be the exception rather than the rule."
None of us can imagine that until it happens.
Everything was hunky dory with my tree, everything well documented and well sourced. My 2 uncles well documented and sourced as well. Then an unknown match appears, who is either a half nephew or a first cousin once removed to me and another tested cousin. 3 sons of my grandparents - one of them had a previously unknown son.
You don't mind finding out who your possible great grandfather was, if your grandfather was illegitimate.
You don't mind finding out who your grandfather was, if your father was illegitimate.
You don't mind finding out who your father was, if you were illegitimate.
But for the families on the other side, it is very different.
It does need thinking about carefully, I agree, but in spite of what has happened with you, BourneGooner, try to build some bridges.
Xinia, I am so sorry to hear your story, but as a nurse for all my working life, I have nursed so many people who really don't know what they are saying when suffering from dementia, things they would never have said when in full health. So glad of your outcome.
Panda - indeed, if you don't discover it, somebody else will.
Food for thought, this thread, but I don't regret taking the test, my cousin doesn't regret taking it, and a cousin from the 3rd son is going to get tested, with the full knowledge of what could be the outcome.
Regards Margaret
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If they are family related, they are family in my book and should all be respected as family.
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Someone appeared on my mother's DNA matches as a third cousin. With such a close relation I was excited but confused about where she matched. I conversed with her daughter regularly, updating her every time I identified one of our shared matches, who all were descending from the same people. We couldn't match any of the matches to her side of the tree and neither of her grandparents had ancestry that led back to my family.
It turned out that her grandfather did not descend from my family, but her grandmother's brother in law did...
She never spoke to me again.
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Mark, could you expand on what you said earlier, "Apparently, DNA can also be acquired during certain medical procedures too?"
Martin
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Imagine the scenario if, as the result of your dna test, it was established that you are not the child of one of either your mother or your father which you had believed for years was the case. Maybe both they and any siblings had also thought this.
Can you imagine the possible fallout over this and the tearing the family apart - maybe permanently. If this revelation had been about a previous generation then the fallout wouldn't be so devastating.
Whilst none of this is your fault the very fact that you had taken the dna test would quite firmly put you in the hotseat.
None of us know if we are going to face a situation like that with such an outcome so there probably does need to be some careful consideration but I don't think that we need to expect illegitimacy from a dna test.
Pheno
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Mark, could you expand on what you said earlier, "Apparently, DNA can also be acquired during certain medical procedures too?"
Martin
Hello Martin
I have seen the claim in a Medical Magazine (not BMA).
Organ transplant and blood transfusion are thought to be two procedures, where DNA acquisition is alleged to have occurred.
People are often given anti-rejection drugs, because the body sees them as foreign to start with. I'd certainly like to know more about it, just out of interest.
Mark
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Xin, I agree with sugarfizzle that sometimes, if people are ill they might say things they do not mean due to confusion.
My now deceased older sister, developed pneumonia many years ago. I went to hospital with her. She seemed reasonably okay (mentally when she walked in) however, when asked questions about her circumstances she informed the staff that she had children but they were all adopted. She said this in front of some of her (grown)children - who I might add were all her own - none adopted. We were gobsmacked. When my sister did get well again she was as mystified as anyone as to why she had claimed to only have 'adopted' children. I think she was a bit mortified about this in fact but I think we all understood that it was part and parcel of her illness at the time.
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xxxx
thank you
xxxin
I forgave Poppa always did and grew to understand the illness better.. but still had to double check..
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I too have experience of family members saying very strange things when ill. Whether it is the effect of the illness, or possibly the medication, we will never know.
Martin
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I've recently done a DNA test and uploaded to Myheritage, it's confirmed that I'm related to a 1st Cousin and his son (1st cousin once removed) as I expected but it's also thrown up a name who has more matches than my 1st cousin's son so it is indicated that this person is also my 1st cousin once removed.
I checked with my mum (as I think the connection has to be on her side) if she recognised the surname and she's drawn a blank - this person is roughly the same age as my mum so one of his parents is likely to have been a half sibling to either of my mum's parents.
It's a bit of a mystery that I'm itching to resolve as I know my maternal grandfather didn't know his real father, he was born when his mother was 17.
Unfortunately as of yet I've had no response to the messages I've sent to this person...
I see it as a positive but perhaps this other person doesn't see it the same as me...
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Get your mum to take the test. She should show a closer relationship if it is on her side.
Regards Margaret
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I don't think it is fair to say that DNA tests can be dangerous. As they said in Roman times, in DNA veritas. All the test is doing is revealing indiscretions committed by our forebears and ancestors. They don't change us. We might uncover that we have been lied to, and deceived, it happened to me. But I think it is wrong to blame the concept of the technology.
Martin
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Get your mum to take the test. She should show a closer relationship if it is on her side.
Regards Margaret
Good shout - I will, I'm pretty certain that it is on her side but it would be a good check and balance.
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I don't think it is fair to say that DNA tests can be dangerous. As they said in Roman times, in DNA veritas. All the test is doing is revealing indiscretions committed by our forebears and ancestors. They don't change us. We might uncover that we have been lied to, and deceived, it happened to me. But I think it is wrong to blame the concept of the technology.
Martin
Agreed, it also proves that things haven't really changed in regards to indiscretions, it's just that in years gone by they were less open about things and tended to carry a sense of shame, whereas these days people just accept it.
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I disagree with the attribution of blame, DNA is not at fault, the blame lies in the secrets and deception of the past. To me it is like blaming the messenger for bad news.
In my own family my grandfather who had split from his first wife had 4 children by my grandmother before his first wife, who refused to divorce him died, leaving him free to marry.
As a result my grandparents children were between 12 & 22 years old before their mum & dad married. This was not talked about but was never kept a secret.
I could mention other incidents in my wife’s lineage that could have caused disruption within the family but again because these were not kept secret caused no lasting problems in the family.
It should also be remembered that the autosomal DNA tests used in family history are not 100% accurate and may/will need further research to prove relationships. Either to prove or disprove the suggestions.
Cheers
Guy
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Guy, you and I seem to agree on everything posted here, but I think your comment about autosomal tests 'not being 100% accurate' should be 'not being 100% precise'. It is a fine difference, but I think you will appreciate that difference.
Martin
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We all seem to like finding out about our possible grandfathers, great grandfathers, 2G grandfathers etc.
I get the idea that it is with present day relationships that the original poster has had problems, though I'm not sure.
Then it becomes a lot harder to understand and accept.
I feel for you, BourneGooner.
Regards Margaret
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After an experience I had some years back I now firmly believe that the best policy is truth regardless.
What happened was this; I was always aware that there was a mystery about my father's parents, and many years ago when I was a boy my mother showed me my grandfather's death certificate, (1903 at the age of 75, Dad born in 1899!), and my father had told me that he had been orphaned at the age of 2.
It wasn't until I started researching in the mid 1990s that I got to grips with things. I found my grandfather in the 19th century censuses living with his then wife, and no children of their own, though they did foster. It came as no surprise to find that my grandfather had remarried when his first wife died in 1894 at 70, but what was surprising was that my grandmother had been born in 1859, and was 35 at marriage, though dates were carefully massaged to reduce the age gap to 20 years. 5 months after the wedding my aunt (Dad's sister was born!, making up for lost time!)
But I then discovered that my grandmother died in 1901. When I got the certificate, authenticated copy at Boston Registry Office, the registrar warned me to prepare for a shock, she described it as "not nice; gruesome". It certainly was my grandmother had cut her throat with an open razor!! This had never been mentioned in the family "not in front of the children" being the order of the day. Dad was brought up by her sister his aunt, had service as a boy soldier, and afterwards returned to Boston and worked on the footplate at Boston loco.
Why this is relevant is because everyday he would see the house where it happened he was apparently in the room as a toddler at the time, when he went and came home from work. If he was on a shunting turn he would spend around 8 hours a day on a shunting engine immediately outside the house, and at least twice a week he would pass the institute where the inquest was held.
After this find and concluding other research, I then went to see my 95 year old mother, told her what I had found; though she did not confirm it, it was obvious from her demeanour that she had known, but never let on.
It was a great shock to me, and from then on I decided it was best for so far as possible to be completely open with all research no matter how harrowing it seems at the time.
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The shock of the original poster's family may have been even more basic.
I have been told that my minority blood group might indicate gypsy roots.
When I asked a Jewish relative about this she went ballistic. Totally lost her reason, screaming and yelling. I have spent years wondering why she would feel gypsy heritage was appalling. Still haven't worked it out! (Though of course, I am aware in recent times they were looked down on by many.)
BTW general concensus suggests a DNA test is unlikely to be precise on the question.
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My maternal grandfather surname Ayres mother surname Cornwell both I believe gypsy names, if as a result he was full blooded makes me at least one quarter gypsy; yet, I note the following several Star of David gravestones in that side of the family, plus my MT DNA test gave British Isles 15% Western Europe 84%, the remaining 1% recorded as East Africa, South Asia, or statistical noise.I am VERY puzzled .
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I haven't had a DNA test done but I know from my research that I am very likely to have gypsy heritage. On my Father's side there were ancestors who were besom makers, basket makers, hawkers, earthernware sellers, and the people these ancestors mixed with tended to be the same or tinsmiths etc. I have read in the press that my Great x two Grandparents being referred to as Tinkers.
As a child I one of my favourite games was to pretend I was a gypsy. I often used to go to sleep imagining I was travelling along in a gypsy caravan. When I found out that my ancestor's occupations likely meant that I come from traveller/gypsy stock I felt delighted and still do. I felt somehow established in my roots which I sensed I had known all along. :)
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I agree that there is great romance in being descended from gypsies. 50 years ago as a child they had such a different image to the so-called travellers of today. I saw them as proud people with a great heritage.
Martin
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I came across a fascinating book review this morning in the free Metro newspaper. The book is called 'Inheritance' by Dani Shapiro.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/15/books/review/dani-shapiro-inheritance.html
I thought this might be of interest as it relates the subject of this thread about DNA testing and how things can go wrong/not come out as expected. The review in the Metro warns to be careful when you send off your saliva test to a genealogy website. The review of this concludes that it is a .. timely exploration ..
It looks like a fascinating read .. :)
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I have Cornwell lines from Essex, and some of my Oxfordshire Smith ancestors were tin plate workers which could indicate gypsy ancestors.
Some say biology means nothing as it is ethics and who bought you up that what counts, but to others blood is everything. I am sure some people who found out their beloved grandfather was not their biological grandfather probably is ready to say "Dont tell me he is still my grandad" and "Dont tell me biology means nothing". To some, blood is everything.
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My 5th Gt Uncles wife was from a long line of Gypsies
as per the Smith Line.. interesting to work..
xin
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I have thought about having my DNA tested. I have documented French and Scottish ancestors and possibly Welsh due to Roberts and Jones lines. Gypises originated in the Punjab region I think and gradually migrated towards Britain about 500 years ago. I have a possible Ayers line in Oxfordshir, still awaiting more info on this. I found a baptism for a namesake woman (who has an Ayers lines) to my ancestor in Oxford city, in the next parish to where my ancestor married, but then found 2 women of the same name married in 1786 and 1789 in Oxford, spanner in the works. The 1789 one is my ancestor. The one who wed in 1786 could also be the one born in 1767. Always an inconvenient marriage that throws doubt into the mix.
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Actually, paper trails can reveal far worse than DNA - I would never have believed we had a serial cow rapist in our family until I discovered the court records of one such repeat offender from the early 19th Century.
The other family indiscretions down the years rather paled beside the revulsion I felt at that one.
The miscreant was originally sentenced to be hung but was eventually pardoned and transported, possibly Australia may not have been the best destination for such a person.
Hmm - still feel slightly nauseated. :
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Also don't fall out, there are genetically scientific proven reasons why a person's DNA doesn't match their Father's or Mother's DNA.
Not knowing about a secret, I might be a little frustrated, but life is simply too short to fall out with family or anyone else, for that matter.
When someone tells a lie, to cover up a non-criminal secret, what about the spirit of forgiveness, when they admit the truth and show sorrow and remorse?
Martin, I can't agree more (both DNA and Paper trail documented research), when you delve into Family History you can also expect to find anything.
Mark
I don't think it was the OP who fell out with anyone although I may be wrong?
There are different ways to look at things & here's an e.g...
I knew someone who was with child prior to meeting her future hubby who took on the responsibility of the child, signed at the registrars although not 'Adopted'.
The 'Paper Trail' certainly wouldn't match the DNA & to my knowledge the child was never told his 'Father' was not his Father!
I knew another who was the child of his 'Sister', brought up by his g/parents & the truth was blurted out to the child when approx. 15 yrs old when the 'Mother/grandmother' was intoxicated & annoyed with her daughter, the true mother/'sister'...not very nice at all!
Annie
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I admit that I haven't done a DNA test yet.
When I began to research family history for my close family, I was fairly certain that I would find some things that I would find confronting and I have - murder, manslaughter, poverty, bigamy, illegitimacy, bankruptcy for example and some of those in the last 100 years. It would be a very rare family who didn't have such events in their history.
It seems that the DNA testing merely highlighted what may have occurred quite recently.
I do feel that results should be treated with caution and for people to remember that they, the results, will affect more people than the actual person who did the test.
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Schnortles, did you just say "serial cow rapist "?
Martin
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Genealogy Guys podcast (google name) have just released an episode where Shannon Coombs-Bennett shares her thoughts on adoption and DNA and has some tips
Shannon Combs-Bennett is a popular genealogy speaker and writer. Her new book, co-authored with Brianne Kirkpatrick, is entitled The DNA Guide for Adoptees: How to Use Genealogy and Genetics to Uncover Your Roots, Connect with Your Biological Family, and Better Understand Your Medical History.
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Sometimes the surprises can be met with a positive attitude and acceptance. A few days ago I was able to help a young woman who knew little about her paternal line to find and establish contact with two half siblings.