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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: jaynes77 on Saturday 25 May 19 22:09 BST (UK)

Title: Help with British Army Uniform (late 1800s)
Post by: jaynes77 on Saturday 25 May 19 22:09 BST (UK)
Hello,

I am hoping that someone can help me to identify this uniform (which I assume is British Army).

The man wearing it is my great-great uncle, George Samuel Smith. He was born in Islington, London, England in 1853 and emigrated to Canada in 1887.

He was a musicien.

Thank you in advance for your help.
Title: Re: Help with British Army Uniform (late 1800s)
Post by: stevej60 on Saturday 25 May 19 23:21 BST (UK)
Hello Jaynes,that's a superb photo but doesn't strike a chord as being a British uniform ,gray is not a colour
normally associated with the victorian era although some of the Militia battalion's (the fore runner of the
territorial army) wore gray it's the hat that is unusual and those epulet's which seem very grand.I wonder
if it's a band uniform or maybe Canadian since you say he emigrated there,Anyway now you've posted
hopefully the answer will be forthcoming.
Title: Re: Help with British Army Uniform (late 1800s)
Post by: MaxD on Sunday 26 May 19 10:28 BST (UK)
It was the Rifle Volunteer Corps (also known as Corps of Rifle Volunteers) which existed alongside the militia that, in many cases, had a predominantly grey uniform.  Wiki lists 282 VRC units which had more in common with shooting clubs than the army based militia.

One common distinguishing feature was the Austrian Knot on the cuffs which doesn't seem to be apparent here although uniforms varied quite considerably which often makes identification difficult!

He looks (opinions will differ!!) older than 34 which is when he went to Canada so stevej60's idea that it is a Canadian uniform could well be the case.  Equally, it may not be a military uniform at all but a band uniform made to resemble the military.

I have sent a PM.

MaxD
Title: Re: Help with British Army Uniform (late 1800s)
Post by: SiGr on Sunday 26 May 19 11:39 BST (UK)
Hi, are you able to get a close and better resolution of the belt buckle ? That might have text and/or a symbol on it.
Title: Re: Help with British Army Uniform (late 1800s)
Post by: Regorian on Sunday 26 May 19 12:26 BST (UK)
I don't think it's either British or Canadian. Did he move on to the USA? I found this Link with two very similar uniforms. You will have to scroll down a long way though.

http://temposenzatempo.blogspot.com/2019/. 
Title: Re: Help with British Army Uniform (late 1800s)
Post by: MaxD on Sunday 26 May 19 15:03 BST (UK)
A very good spot Regorian, I'd say you are on the mark there!

MaxD
Title: Re: Help with British Army Uniform (late 1800s)
Post by: Regorian on Sunday 26 May 19 15:17 BST (UK)
You said earlier that possibly not a military band. On the second pic. description says possibly a civilian band who played for or with the New York National Guard.

 
Title: Re: Help with British Army Uniform (late 1800s)
Post by: MaxD on Sunday 26 May 19 15:26 BST (UK)
Beginning to add up!  As New York State borders Canada he may well have played in a band in the US while still living in the land of the round door knobs.

MaxD
Title: Re: Help with British Army Uniform (late 1800s)
Post by: jaynes77 on Sunday 26 May 19 23:51 BST (UK)
Thank you all for your interesting and helpful replies.

Regorian, thanks for the link to the uniforms. Yes, George's uniform looks very similar to the one of the "second valve trombonist".  Also, it says "The photographer was W. Russell of Albion, New York so we must assume this bandsman was also from somewhere near there. However Albion. is a small village in Orleans County, NY on the Erie Canal about half way between Rochester and Buffalo. It's more likely that his band came from one of those big cities centers."

Interestingly George lived Port Hope, Durham, on Lake Ontario, opposite Buffalo and Rochester. However, looking at the distances it's unlikely that he played for a band in Buffalo or Rochester.

SiGr, will go back to the originator of the picture to see it's possible to get a close up of the belt buckle.
Title: Re: Help with British Army Uniform (late 1800s)
Post by: Regorian on Monday 27 May 19 06:49 BST (UK)
Glad we could have been of help. Doesn't mean he wasn't British/Canadian. There must have been a railway link or two. Canadian and Australian uniforms closely followed British uniforms until 1945 and later and this uniform ain't either. Good luck with the belt buckle, but I expect it to be American.
Title: Re: Help with British Army Uniform (late 1800s)
Post by: MaxD on Wednesday 29 May 19 10:28 BST (UK)
Folk with much more expertise in uniforms of the period who I have consulted on and off line elsewhere are unanimous that the uniform is US military or at least US military based, confirming views expressed here.  The kepi style cap, slightly obscured by the ornate plume, the triple row of buttons, the cuff adornments and the shoulder boards are all characteristics found in US uniforms of the period and most certainly not on British (or Canadian) uniforms.

The belt buckle if identified may link to some specific organisation but otherwise Regorian has it in spades.

MaxD
Title: Re: Help with British Army Uniform (late 1800s)
Post by: stevej60 on Wednesday 29 May 19 23:54 BST (UK)
you know Max when I saw the photo before reading the text I immediately thought Confederate army
the style of buckle matches some CS buckles, given that George was in North America just over twenty
year's after the end of the civil war it's an unusually "Southern" style uniform for what we think would be
a Northern state band,as you say a good shot of the buckle would help.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Reproduced-CS-Confederate-States-2-Piece-round-Belt-Buckle-Solid-Brass-/152215454309
Title: Re: Help with British Army Uniform (late 1800s)
Post by: jaynes77 on Saturday 01 June 19 17:26 BST (UK)
Thank you again, Max and Steve, for the additional information. Unfortunately the originator of the photo is unable to provide a close up of the buckle (but she thinks the second letter is an O and the first possibly an L).
Jayne