RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: skyshot1990 on Friday 24 May 19 18:07 BST (UK)
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I have a question for people in the know...
A camp site has started to interest me...
I wondered if any one knows of the history of it.
Date 1900 -/+ 10 years, area Nottingham, name Smiths field meadow road?
I have censuses of great uncles and aunties being there in caravans, and now have the name turn up on a birth certificate for a cousin. I would love to hear about this place and its history.
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Hi,
Would you mind sharing the names of your relatives that were there at the time... I have a lot relatives that were in Nottingham during the 1901 and 1911 census...
kazi
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The Meadows is an area of Nottingham south of the railway station. Wonder if that's the area.
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I'm sure it's the same area as my Smith/Bacon etc... Hawthorne Rd, Cremone area??
Kazi
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Cremorne area is part of the Meadows
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A great many of my Wilsher family... my 3rd great grand parents and 4th great uncles and aunties, I am interested in the grounds....
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Our William Smith was in Watson's Yard Wilford Rd area with a William Wilshire, all in Vans... Others members of the family were in some waste ground in Hawthorne Rd, I've not heard it referred to as Smiths field... I have heard though many years ago the the Miths own a field at Bobbers Mill where they over winter their vans.
Kazi
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Well the area I talk of is defo called Smith fields, kings meadow road Nottingham...
I have this on census records and birth certificates, the William you talk of, I believe to be my 4 th great uncle.
There is a case where he and his son also William were having a fight with the smith family in a caravan...
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I think I've found your Wm Wilshire in a newspaper report where our relatives attacked him in his caravan over a debt!!! I'm away at the mo, but will dig it our when I'm back.
Kazi
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Ya that will be the caravan brawl...
I have it in my records, every thing would point to it being my 4th great uncle the area is given as meadow rd if I remember right, which again pops up matching this smiths fields name.
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Yes that's the one... an alcohol fuelled brawl no doubt!... we're also related to Charles Bacon who I believe also lived in Watson's Yard.
Kazi
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in the 1890s-1940s there seems to be a large amount of travellers in and around Nottingham... Not sure what its like now, my grand dad moved down south and I have never been up there.
The Smith and Wilsher family had extremely strong connections from what my research shows.
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don,t know if this is any use ,newspaper article 1928 my greatgrandad was stopping in a van in Nottingham .....
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Hi Janeo
The Elliotts are great, i have read so much about the Elliotts, great Gipsy People, thank you so much for putting up that article i have not seen that one, i have hundreds of the great Elliotts, trust me all Gipsies are from Gipsies, you are and must be a proud person, it was me who found about Hawthorne street and many unknown camp sites around Nottingham, no one will ever know of me but my aim was for others to take an interest and get back the pride, Gipsies were not fallen, but their ancesters were fooled by the wicked, thank you for putting up that article, look at a few of these articles i found a while back about Radford, you done rearly good and well in finding that record, well done, the bridge at Radford and the story you tell of brings me ever closer, i am born and bred from Nottingham and know every place in every story, there was many camp sites big and small over hundreds of yeares, the Elliotts are inter wed with the people my Mother was from, thank you again you are a star and i will never forget you well done, we must bring back the truth and raise the Dead from the bondage of lies, imagine being dead and bound with chains of false epitaphs, the pain must be terrible, a person would never rest, i am not afraid of the living and respect the Dead and will talk for them, you may never reply to me like lots but you will have good luck as will will your Family
michael
Thursday 14 June 1928
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
VAN-DWELLER’S FATE
Fred Elliott, a hawker, living in a van at Radford Bridge-road, said deceased had lived with him for years. She had been suffering from catarrh and bronchitis, and was recently discharged from Bagthorpe Infirmary
Tuesday 12 June 1928
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
RADFORD CANAL TRAGEDY. CARAVAN DWELLER'S BODY FOUND IN THE WATER. Discovering early this morning that his mother had vanished in the night. William Elliott, van dweller near Radford Canal bridge. Wollaton road, Nottingham
Wednesday 13 June 1928
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
DROWNED IN CANAL. Mother Found by Son at Radford. At 5.30 yesterday morning William Elliott, van-dweller on Wollaton-road, near Radford Canal Bridge. Nottingham, found his mother missing from the van, and upon investigating he found her lying face down
Re: Hurn Herons Hearns Youngs
18 on: Wednesday 24 October 18 22:50 BST (UK)
Thanks again Mel
More for me to learn from, The Gypsy Genealogy web site as so much great information in. Thank you for everything, When i first put the article record on about Charlotte Hammond i noticed how it was stated Radford Nottingham, i am from Nottingham, i have been tracing the Old Camping Grounds, so a while back i looked for one at Radford this is some of what i found, i will not divert to much, i think though that such things as this will be of help to others who read these words.
I have read that Radford derived its name of the "red ford" from the Mottled Bed Sandstone in the high cliffs, where the Alfreton Road crossed the Leen by a ford.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101603268
There was an Old way from Lenton to Radford the Marsh Road or Radford Marsh. Radford used to be in the priory of Lenton so sometimes Radford is talked about as Lenton in the Old writings, in the early 1900s i think it was then that the name changed to Faraday Road where the Worled famouse Raleigh bikes were made, now in this time next to this Road is a new housing estate, the road named as Radmarsh Road, i think from what i have read from many Old refferances there was once an Old Camping Ground at Radford, in the Fields around the area known as Radford Marsh. Another bit of information for others is that there was an Old Lane known as Outgang Lane. Outgang Lane is wrote about in 1488 known as the Outgoinges of Radford and Lenton leading North toward the Linges, the Lings was the Old name of the Forest, meaning where the heather grew, so look out in the census or other records for names like Radford Marsh or Outgang Lane. below i read this record, i do not know if it is corect, it as Gipsy People stated as staying around the area that i now write of.
1881
Name David ALLEN
Relation Head Marital Status M Gender Male Age 42
Birthplace pworth, Lincoln, England
Occupation Hawker In Earthenware
Name Harriett ALLEN
Relation Wife Marital Status M Gender Female Age 33
Birthplace Sheffield, York, England
Occupation Hawkers Wife
Name George ALLEN
Relation Son Gender Male Age 9
Birthplace Dronfield, Derby, England
Occupation Assistant Hawker
Name James ALLEN
Relation Son Gender Male Age 5
Birthplace Glossop, Derby, England
Name James KNIGHT
Relation Relative Marital Status U Gender Male Age 19
Birthplace Sheffield, York, England
Occupation Hawker
Dwelling Radford Marsh Caravan Census Place Lenton, Nottingham, England
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Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
Reply #432 on: Wednesday 26 April 17 21:38 BST (UK)
page two
helo, I have been trying to find records of camps around Nottingham, I am at present writing about the one I found at Hawthorne Street, sadly it as long since gone in the redevelopment of the Meadows, I am also still trying to find all the old camping grounds around the City of my birth, i wish to learn and understand as much as I can, in turn I wish to share the things I find, I know one day someone will find them, then they will also understand, well I just came across this report below, see now how there was once a camp site at Radford, Radford is just up from Lenton, that is one of the places where the Herons stayed, Lenton is just up from the Meadows where Hawthorne Street Kings Meadow Road is, which intern connects to the Marshes then Sneinton and St Ann's, all these places are rich in untold history, there will be more places to find to, Radford is now in inner City Nottingham, but back in the 1800s it would of been on the outskirts of the City, see also how John Gray also seems to be married to Charlotte Hammond, it was her daughter I thought he was with, Charlotte is a Great Gipsy Woman of High Class, I hope these records will be of help to someone, and if anyone finds any records of Radford Nottingham would you please be kind enough to transcribe them on here, plus Hawthorne Street, I will finish writing about the records of these People above maybe tomorrow, it might take two pages, then I will return to the stories of the camp at Hawthorne Street to show you what I have found then hopefully someone may be able to assist with my researchers
Nottinghamshire Guardian-Thursday 10 January 1861
Shire Hall, Nottingham.
Sat.-(Before R Birkin, S.B.Wild, W. Needam, and W.Hannay, Esqs.)
Radford. Life in the Gipsy Camp.-A gipsy named John Gray, of sombre cast of contenance, appeared in answer to a charge of assaulting a woman named Charlotte Hammond, whom he had espoused in conformity with “the marriage laws and customs of gisydom.” The complainant, a fortune-teller by profession, stated that on Tuesday night, the defendant struck her and injured her very much about the head, she was living with him at Radford at the time of the assault. The defendant commenced beating the woman’s daughter very violently, wherest the complainant became irritated and declared she would not stand by to see him brutally ill-treat her own child in that manner. The complainant gave satisfactory proof of defendant’s ill-usage, and said he had behaved to her like a demon. He denied the charge, but the bench placed to much reliance on the woman’s testimony to doubt that considerable violence had been inflicted upon her, and the defendant was fined 16s, 6d. Including expenses.
Nottingham Journal Monday 7Jauary 1861
Disturbance among the Gipsies.
John Gray was charged with threatening language to Charlotte Hammond, on Tuesday evening last, at Radford. The parties were of the gipsy tribe, and during the disturbance one with another in their camp, the defendant threatened to murder complainant. After hearing the case, the magistrate ordered the defendant to be bound over in his own recognizances to keep the peace towards the complainant for six months. And to pay the expenses, amounting to 16s, 6d.
to be continued.......
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Katherine Briggs Dictionary of British Folk Tales in the English Language, Taylor Francis, 1991.
Reuben Gray, Gus Gray Old Radford, Nottingham.
Sunday 26th November, 1815 St. Peters Baptized Mary Ann Boswell -Zecharias - Sarah Boswell Radford Nottingham
Nottingham Journal Tuesday 22 March Nottinghamshire Guardian Friday 25 March 1881 extracts
John Boswell a gipsy was charged with cruelty to a horse,-Sergeant Aldridge met the prisoner at Fawcett Street Radford, he was in charge of a horse attached to a van laden with tents and other things with which he travelled with, prisoner said he was on the way to Retford
Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
Reply #433 on: Thursday 27 April 17 20:38 BST (UK)
Page three
Helo everyone
A good day to you all, well the article above about Charlotte Hammond and John Gray is I think, related to the article I am about to show you, it is a most fantastic account, one of , if not the best I have come across, it will take at least two pages to transcribe, I know it will be of great interest to everyone, again it is in my own City of Nottingham, I think these are those Old Original Gipsies, when I read of them, I hear them talking, and the Shire Hall is next to St Marys overlooking the old Marshes, you can now visit the Shire Hall and go into the same cells as they were remanded to, plus you may also go in the very same court room where the accounts I write of took place, the Shire Hall is now called the Galleries of Justice, it’s a museum, if these are your Relations come to Nottingham and stand where they stood, I walk in a City of many ghosts, everywhere I know and go was once walked and known by the Peoples I write about, there everywhere, I do hope I have helped someone, and will always do so, now after these accounts I now write over two pagers, I will then write about The stories of the Family named Bacon, well I will try anyway, I hope this to, will be of help, remember all the Old People, all of them count, you must always respect all of them, they were just People getting by the best way they could.
http://www.galleriesofjustice.com/
click on this link above to learn of the Old ShireHall now the Galleries of Justice Museum
Nottinghamshire Guardian Thursday 21 October 1858
The Zingari.—A curious scene transpired at the ShireHall on Saturday last. An athletic fellow, standing very little short of six feet, named John Gray, was charged before the right hon. Lord Belper, and a full Bench of Magistrates, with assaulting Levina Lee, another member of the Zingari or Gipsy tribe. The complainant stated that Gray, who had been in their camp three yeares, had been reproved for walking out at night with her sister, and in consequence of this he attacked Levina and lacerated her arm. Witness showed several marks of blows, and ges-ticulated violently. It appeared from the evidence of another witness who was called, that Gray had grasp of a bill hook in his hand and threatened to do murder with it, is menaces being directed towards Levina Lee. Gray prayed the Magistrates to remand him till Saturday in order to bring witnesses for his defence, which was accordingly done.-Vashti Lee, the sister who had been the cause of all this violence, was then put in the dock on a charge pre-ferred by her own mother of stealing a valuable ring. She had the aquiline nose, chiselled features, and expressive face, which are generally the characteristics of this wander-ing race; dressed with great taste, wearing a feathered hat. Her mother said she was her own child, adding with some feeling, I would not hurt she. The Bench, who appeared to be greatly interested in the case, demanded the particulars, which the old woman declined to give, repeat-ing, she my own child, I would not hurt she. The daughter then gave an account of how she became possessed of the jewel. It originally belonged to her grandmother, whom she tended in her last sickness, but no one was present at her death. She left no will, dying in the middle of the night. The ring was pledged at pawnbrokers in Lincoln, and redeemed by herself, for 8s.6d. As com-plainant declined to press the charge, she was set at liberty, and the mother demanded the ring. My ring, no gentle-men my ring if you please, my ring! Exclaimed the black eyed daughter; and as it was handed to her at the noble Chairman’s request, she burst into tears, and shaking her finger at her mother, said you want to punish me, but ya can’t. Never mind Vashti, never mind, exclaimed the rebating voice of her dark adorer as he was conveyed to his remanded cell.
to be continued..........
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Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
Reply #434 on: Friday 28 April 17 20:06 BST (UK)
page Four
This is the last of the Great stories I will tell from the writings above, may they all rest in Peace, everything is contained in the stories, I think everything is there, Passion, Love, Forbidden Love, Family Ways, life really, there is so much if you but feel into the words, its all there, I was just looking on Sues web site the Romany Jib and found this article, I was only having a look, I don't really know what I am doing, I was just trying to find information on Charlotte Hammond, I wonder if the People I have been writing about are the same as those in the link below
http://www.gypsyjib.com/thread/5202233/Vashti+%2F+Wasti+LEE+daughter+of+Zachariah+%26+Charlotte+wo+John+GRAY
then I just looked on RootsChat Archives and have been reading through this thread, once again I don't know who is who, I was only looking for camp sites round Nottingham, but you never know some of the information contained in the stories I write about may be of help in your research, I thought the comment made by Vashti's Mother was telling when She repeatedly said " she's my own child, I would not hurt she." its how you read into words I guess, I will not comment no more on this, maybe I see things wrongly. this is the link from RootsChat, http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=332980.0
Nottingham shire Guardian Thursday 28 October 1858
The Gipsy Again- At the ShireHall, on Saturday last, John Gray was charged on remand with assaulting Levina Lee, who did not appear in support of the charge. He had been a prisoner a week on this accusation, having requested the Magistrates to remand him for that period in order to procure witnesses for the defence. Another charge was also made against him-that of breaking the peace in an assault upon Jacob Kirk, with a bill hook, at Bulwell, on Friday week, but the complainant appeared and said he did not wish to press the charge, but merely sought to have the prisoner bound over. As he did not enter into the particulars, the bench said Gray would be dismissed on promising not to offend again.- Gipsy; I will. I'll say nothing to him no more. I don't blame dis gentleman.-Lord Belper: There is 12s. to pay-Gray said he had not got the money, but his mother, a wizened frightful- looking old jade, came forwards and produced a sovereign from the inner folds of a vile dirty handkerchief, and the prisoner was then discharged.
ps, Bulwell is just past Basford, Basford is next to Radford, Hucknall comes after Bulwell, Hucknall is the Boswells land, remember all these places, plus Arnold, they will assist you in your search
I did find in the Nottingham Evening Post, Friday 20 January 1893 another Vashti, She was living or staying at 1 Bailey-Street Old Basford, and was a Fortune-teller, She was known as Vashti Butler-Gipsy, I think She was of the famous Derbyshire Boswells, I may be wrong but Linda as a photo of Her on Her web
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SEQUEL TO A HORSE DEAL
these incidents were reported in the Nottingham press
1909
during the hearing a case in which Joseph Thompson, commonly known as Slabbs,” aged 38, hawker, 51, Narrow-marsh, and Frederick Wiltshire, aged 35, horse dealer, living in a travelling van standing in Hawthorne street, the Meadows, were charged with stealing £23 from the person of Samuel Potter, Nottingham horse dealer,
the two prisoners said the prosecutor, each holding an arm, and Wiltshire deliberately took Potter’s gold out of his inside pocket. When Potter resisted, -Wiltshire struck him a violent blow under the jaw. knocking him down, and both men remanded.
see how still in 1909 they are still using the old name Narrow Marsh, that's a good bit of history
this is just local writing, unless you were there in 1909 that's all it will be
1900
THIS DAY'S POLICE NEWS
The nets. were ordered to be confiscated.—Charles Bacon, gipsy, ailing from Shirerbrook. was summoned for aiding and abetting Fred Wiltshire, Richard Elliott. and John Gregory, in tresspassing in search of game
Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
Reply #191 on: Sunday 07 February 16 14:09 GMT (UK)
A good bit of history
looks like Hawthorne street was a stopping place for the Wiltshire's
1909 Frederick Wiltshire, aged 35, horse dealer, living in a travelling van standing in Hawthorne street, this is the area called the Meadows, now below William is there seven yeares later in 1916 its just south of the Marshes, Sneinton is to the East, St Anns more northwards but all join, this is where they may have kept there Wagons over the years, ready for when they took the notion to be on the move.
Nottingham
1916
IGNORANT OF THE LAW
FAILURE TO REGISTER. The excuse that he was no scholar was offered by vandweller, named William Wiltshire, 39, of Hawthorne-street, who at the Nottingham Policecourt to-day was charged with being drunk and disorderly and also failing to Register
Now you have living at 25 Fyne Street Sneinton the Wiltshire's also using the name Wilsher same residence different name, same People.
Sneinton Nottingham
1920
A DRUNKEN FRENZY
NOTTINGHAM MAN DISCHARGES GUN IN STREET. The discharging a firearm in Fyne-street last night created quite a sensation among the residents, at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day,
James Wiltshire (45), described as a poacher, living 25, Fyne- street Sneinton
“STAND BACK!” THREAT TO SHOOT NOTTM. POLICEMAN. EXCITING STREET AFFRAY. . An exciting affair took place in Fyne-street last night, as result of which James Wiltshire, aged 46. who resided there appeared at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day
SHOTS IN THE NIGHT
arrested, Wiltshire was found to be mad drunk. Mr. W. E. (defending);
Was he not firing in the air?
He was firing at us, One shot hit the wall in Fyne-street
NOTTINGHAM SHOOTING AFFRAY. PRISONER AGAIN REMANDED. Wiltshire. of Fyne-street. discharging and threatening an officer, Nottingham Guildhall to-day, remanded
NOTTM. HAWKER GETS A MONTH FOR UNPROVOKED ASSAULT.
at the Nottingham Guildhall today James Wilsher 26. hawker. Fyne- Street
1925
NOTTINGHAM MAN. Said to have undergone the punishment of the cat, the birch, and penal servitude, James Thomas Wilsher, hawker, of 25. Fyne-street, Nottingham,
was given two months imprisonment at the Guildhall to-day for being suspected person, and loitering.
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Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
Reply 193 on: Friday 19 February 16 13:20 GMT (UK)
Quote
This is the story of Hawthorne Street Kings Meadow Road
Thompson the so called writer found one story in 1909 and merited it warranted but a single line
AFFAIRS OF EGYPT 1909
By Thompson
These notes are compiled almost entirely from the large volume weighing seven pounds of Press cuttings collected by the Society's Honorary Secretary On March 15 some so called Gypsies were evicted from a camping ground in Hawthorne Street, Nottingham
AFFAIRS OF GIPSYS 2016
By Me
Nottingham 1909
After numerous written notices and two and one quarter hours of argument, a body of Gipsies were removed from land in Hawthorne street, Nottingham. belonging, Mr. H. Brown and Messrs. Brothers. For two or three years this land has been the free habitat of the Bohemians, the landowners, in co-operation with the city sanitary inspector, determined to them, notice of eviction Mr. Brown's agent, together with two gentlemen from Red Lion-street, two other men' on behalf of Chorley Brothers, and a couple of policemen, at nine o'clock this morning. Perhaps the order had not been taken seriously, for the encampment had yet made the slightest preparation, and the only horse fetched from the fields was promptly sent away when the police were spotted. There were three caravans, in which some 15 people lived, Billy Bacon, pleaded that his only available horse was lame, and refused to quit. Thereupon the two gentlemen from
Red Lionstreet, capable looking, stepped to the front
“The first man who touches my van I'll lay out" intimated Billy, the powerful looking fellow standing over six feet high. The gentlemen from Red Lion-street consulted, and decided that they could not interfere under the circumstances. Meanwhile, one of the owners of the other vans said he was quite willing
"to have a flutter'’ and stand the consequences.
someone was despatched to negotiate
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Nottingham 1900
Charles Bacon, gipsy, ailing from Shirebrook. was summoned for aiding and abetting
Fred Wiltshire, Richard Elliott. and John Gregory, in trespassing in search of game, on land belonging the Duke of Portland
Nottingham 1909
REMARKABLE CASE
A story unfolded in the Nottingham Guildhall during the hearing a case in which Joseph Thompson, hawker, Narrow marsh, and Frederick Wiltshire, horse dealer, living in travelling van standing in Hawthorne street, the Meadows, were charged with stealing a leather bag, containing £23 in gold, from the person of Samuel Potter, general dealer, who resides at 9, Victoria place, Fishergate, on Saturday the 4th.
Mr. R. A. Young, who prosecuted, explained that on the date named Potter met the prisoners in the Nottingham Cattle Market, and bargained with Wiltshire for some time about the purchase of a horse. The deal did not come off, but while it was in progress Potter happened to show them his money, Afterwards all three adjourned to a public house, and later in the evening met in the Great Market place. They sat drinking for some time, and Wiltshire introduced Potter to couple of women, the three men set off towards the tramway depot, the two women being some distance behind. On a piece of waste land Wiltshire deliberately took Potter’s purse gold out of his inside pocket. When Potter resisted, Wiltshire struck him a violent blow under the jaw. knocking him down .
threats had bean made against the women in the event of giving evidence, necessary to subpoena. Evidence was then given by the woman referred to Ethel Lakin, 17 Kid street The witness, spoke to seeing the robbery committed. she threatened to give information, and Wiltshire retorted that he would smash a bottle on her head . Wiltshire Offered her £8 to leave the town and let the case fall through, when charged Wiltshire replied that he knew nothing about the £ 23, but Potter was “flashing the money about" Thompson denied the theft. the identity of the other woman concerned, Castle said he had never been able to trace her. She was referred to "Birmingham Annie.'' and had reason to believe that she had left the town
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NOTTINGHAM POLICE-COURT 1924
BRAWL IN A CARAVAN
For considerable time, magistrates at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day were engaged in hearing a case of alleged theft and assault. Thomas Smith, 28, dealer, 71a, Red Lion-street, William Smith. 57. labourer, 2, Essex-street, and George Smith, 59. hawker living in a caravan in Kings Meadow road were charged with stealing eleven and a quarter yards of linoleum belonging William Wiltshire, senr., a caravan dweller, Kings Meadow road, George Smith was also charged with assaulting William Wiltshire jun, while the later and his Farther were summoned for assaulting George Smith. Mr R.A Young, represented the Wiltshire's, while Mr A.F Heane appeared for the Smiths.For the prosecution it was alleged that the three men entered the caravan of William Wiltshire Senr. In Kings Meadow road, late on the night of February the 28th and stole a role of linoleum.
George Smith who was alleged armed with an iron bar, afterwards struck William Wiltshire jun, who was injured in the groin.
" ATTACKED WITH A SPADE"
It was admitted George Smith was injured on the head, but it was alleged that he was hit by his own son Tommy by mistake.
For the defence it was contended that George Smith had lent Wiltshire Senr money, and as he had been unable to get some of it back he went to the caravan to get the linoleum.
The Wiltshires, George Smith alleged, attacked him with a spade, the result beying he had to be conveyed to hospital, where two stiches were put into his head,
what happened in the caravan, said Mr Heane, was something akin to a drunken brawl.
The summonses against the Wiltshires was dismissed and the bench considered the assault by George Smith proved, but taking all the circumstances into consideration, they imposed a fine of one pound.The charge of theft against the three Smiths was dismissed.
Nottingham 1916
FAILURE TO REGISTER
The excuse that he was no scholar was offered by vandweller named William Wiltshire, 39, of Hawthorne Street
FIGHT AMONGST THE GIPSIES 1918
SEQUEL TO A MELEE
As sequel to regular melee between bands of Gipsies who have settled on a waste piece of land in Hawthorne street, Nottingham, George Smith, 57, popularly known as "Gipsy Smith," appeared at the Nottingham Guildhall to day charged with wilfully damaging a caravan, three violins, and other property, value £20. belonging to basali, a swarthy looking foreigner who has not yet mastered the english language. Smith was also charged with assaulting Barthelmy Ferret, another van dweller. so far as the charges of assault were concerned permission was asked to withdraw them on the understanding that prisoner compensated prosecutor for damage. Mr. Clayton for Smith facetiously remarked that was a demonstration of Gipsy love, adding that prisoner was not an evangelist, though born and bred in a tent. (laughter) Smith ordered to pay the £20 to Basali, Prisoner expressed his gratitude to the magistrates
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Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
Reply 194 on: Friday 19 February 16 16:46 GMT (UK)
Quote
http://www.nottstalgia.com/images/nottingham_1920s_map.jpg
you can zoom this map up, follow the trent to your left, there is the old Wilford toll bridge, just above is Hawthorne street leading on to Kings Meadow road, to your left is old Lenton were the Gipsy Isaac Herron says he liked to stay, just below the toll bridge is Wilford, that's were lots of Gipsys are buried
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/resources/maps/Nottingham/nottinghamstreetmapc1960.pdf
scroll down eight pages and see Hawthorne Street and Kings Meadow Road, the land where Gipsys would stay was next to the power station and cliffton colliery
in the photo below you will see the river, to the top middle is the places I talk, this photo is from the twenty's so this is more or less how it was
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjs_f78x4TLAhUDNxQKHYYPAG4QjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.britainfromabove.org.uk%2Fimage%2Fepw021043&psig=AFQjCNHm8XjF24wX40pNVIar6ueQqGmYow&ust=1455996453213373
Robert Mellors, Old Nottingham suburbs: then and now Wilford 1914
NORTH WILFORD
By an Order of the Local Government Board, made in 1894, the parish of Wilford was divided, and that part of the parish to the north of the Trent was directed to be called North Wilford. It will surprise some people to be told how large a portion of Nottingham Meadows was in the original parish, and now forms the new parish named
The Wilford Meadow was the land west of what we call Wilford Boad, now the Colliery district, and south of "The King's Meadow." In a perambulation of the boundaries of Sherwood Forest in 1505, the officers started from the King's Castell att Nottingham, "and then by the Ould Trentt to the oulde corse of the watter of Leene (which is the bound between the King's medows and the medow of Wilford " etc. B. B., 413.
Between the King's Meadow and Wilford Meadow, it is probable, the boundary was a great dyke. A lithographic view of Nottingham was taken by Henry Burn in 1845, apparently from the northern boundary dyke of Wilford parish, at the junction of King's Meadow and Wilford Roads. It shows the footpath to the ferry, and the dyke, with a tree prominent in the foreground. A copy of this picture appears in "In and about Notts.," page 248.
Crocuses. At the middle of the last century millions of crocuses were growing on both parts of North Wilford meadows, forming a sight of beauty such as no-one who had seen them could ever forget. They are nearly all gone now. Two fields near the Colliery survive, west of Bosworth road Schools. But why mourn over lost flowers?
The places where they grew are occupied with houses, and the houses are full of children, and the children are more beautiful, and of greater value than the flowers.
Colliery. There are in North Wilford two parts necessarily and permanently divided. In the west section the Colliery is the principal feature. When the Pit was sunk, and the Colliery opened out, the business was for several years carried on in the name of Mr. Saul Isaacs as proprietor, until in 1876 the Clifton Colliery Company, Ltd., was formed. It is now the largest employer of labour in the parish, usually having 1,000 workmen and boys,
Schools.
The Bosworth Road Schools were opened in 1886, suggests that the names of local streets are reminiscent of the end of the Wars of the Roses, and of the Civil War.
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If any one is looking for Familys around Nottingham i have found many in many old unknown camping grounds, i have done this over several yeares now from learning from Richard the great book man of the south, He writes about the Gipsies in many new books of this day, a very good noted writer, i know every inch of Nottingham, all if not everything is nigh on gone or changed but i have found little bits of land or streets left, it as been great to find the lost places, i hope others like the ones now looking keep up the great look, this will help others to look and find their People, all Gipsies are Gipsy, they all come from the People in their own little way, let the truth never rest till every lie is nailed to its masters forehead, a snake is a snake, a lie is a lie, but how does the Dead live in such lies, its when the living speak the truth, then the snake dies, its then that the Dead rest and the living live to tell the tale of the Dead
michael
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my granny was an Elliott ,her dad was the mentioned Fred Elliott and her mam was the mentioned Emily Smith ...my granny Jinny Elliott married Ben Smith .My Elliotts were around Retford .My greatgrandads parents Thomas Elliott and Lydia Wiltser.Thomas parents William Elliott and Harriet Gray .my greatgrannie Emily Smith parents Thomas Smith and Syberina Smith .My grandad was Ben Smith ,he came down from Smiths Butlers Deadmans and Boswells .I still have family living in the area Nottingham Retford ... ...
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thank you again, i have read all your words of your long Families, that is a great history you speak of, many great names like the Grays, all of them tho real good People of respect, all the People you mention, i have only read of certain things, i was told lots about history through growing up that i write about, i listoned then to storys about the Familys of the North Notts, but i have read only about Retford, i never did hear of it before i started to learn in this manner, many times i have read records of the Elliotts around there, the Wiltser Wilshers Wiltshires Wilshaws Wiltshaws welshires and more are around Retford long ago, all thoes surrounding places, they are related to Familys like the Heaps and Sharlotts Charlotts plus many other names, Retford hold many storys i just know it does, the Boswells are there from long long ago, wild to, so wild and free, all Gipsy People have a big history in being from many peoples, some are more intune with the past, there are more who are not, there are many types of cross over people who are thinking just through the reading thought, i would love much to hear more of your knowledge, you must write down all you have learned, you are important more than you know, thank you again it as been my luck to have read your words
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my granny was an Elliott ,her dad was the mentioned Fred Elliott and her mam was the mentioned Emily Smith ...my granny Jinny Elliott married Ben Smith .My Elliotts were around Retford .My greatgrandads parents Thomas Elliott and Lydia Wiltser.Thomas parents William Elliott and Harriet Gray .my greatgrannie Emily Smith parents Thomas Smith and Syberina Smith .My grandad was Ben Smith ,he came down from Smiths Butlers Deadmans and Boswells .I still have family living in the area Nottingham Retford ... ...
Lydia Wiltser is my 1 cousin 6 x removed, she comes from another branch of my tree... If you have not purchased the Elliot book, you should buy that, much of your Elliot/Smith blood lines have had much research done on them.
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If any one is looking for Familys around Nottingham i have found many in many old unknown camping grounds, i have done this over several yeares now from learning from Richard the great book man of the south, He writes about the Gipsies in many new books of this day, a very good noted writer, i know every inch of Nottingham, all if not everything is nigh on gone or changed but i have found little bits of land or streets left, it as been great to find the lost places, i hope others like the ones now looking keep up the great look, this will help others to look and find their People, all Gipsies are Gipsy, they all come from the People in their own little way, let the truth never rest till every lie is nailed to its masters forehead, a snake is a snake, a lie is a lie, but how does the Dead live in such lies, its when the living speak the truth, then the snake dies, its then that the Dead rest and the living live to tell the tale of the Dead
michael
What do you think of this Smith's field King's Meadow rd?
Do you think this land was owned by the smith's or was it a street called Smith / landed used by them?
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Sky
tell me of the records you have for this, tell me every word on the record that says Smiths Field, do not leave a single word out, i need to read every word, how are you any way, i am fine by the way, my missis as gone on holiday, i stayed here to work, but i,v been researching for hours, i,ll tell her i done a lot of hidden work, merrrmm, anyway i have many records of the place you talk of, i need you to tell me of your records that say Smiths Field, wild times back then in Nottingham, wow tho some wild ones came out of them, a bit sad to, theres more to being wild, but thats just the way of it
Leahcim, SkyO the Greek, or you can just call me michael, some this way know me by the name the Albainan, they think i am always tanned up, mermm, shall i show you a photo of me
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Sky
tell me of the records you have for this, tell me every word on the record that says Smiths Field, do not leave a single word out, i need to read every word, how are you any way, i am fine by the way, my missis as gone on holiday, i stayed here to work, but i,v been researching for hours, i,ll tell her i done a lot of hidden work, merrrmm, anyway i have many records of the place you talk of, i need you to tell me of your records that say Smiths Field, wild times back then in Nottingham, wow tho some wild ones came out of them, a bit sad to, theres more to being wild, but thats just the way of it
Leahcim, SkyO the Greek, or you can just call me michael, some this way know me by the name the Albainan, they think i am always tanned up, mermm, shall i show you a photo of me
Like I stated at the start... This is on our Wilsher cousins/uncles certificates, which I currently hold 3 being given as Smith's Field, Kings Meadows rd, Nottingham... In Census My 3rd great gran father plus his bother are living in caravans, place giving as Smith Field, Nottingham, Meadows. From this Information I can only believe this must of been even a field own by a smith or some land with the name smith field. Either way this was defo a place the Wilsher family would of been using as a camping ground for 10 ish years...
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Sky
you have not answerd my question, but thats fine gal, no problem talk as you feel fit, i am already a hero,
look are you my Cousin, dont be giving me no talk of 3x this or that, and dont be saying words like removed, are you related to me, dont talk no daft talk, look just tell the truth, what you afraid of , you are in the comony of me, you so lucky, i am the only ony left, how about that then, i know the lot,what about the photo do you want one, then you got to give me one, sure i,m hansome as hell,
merr, come on Sky theres more in the records that you tell, remember i am the last of the last, there will be no more after me, make the most of it for tomorows people i have lots to say, good luck to you now with love xxx
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Sky
you have not answerd my question, but thats fine gal, no problem talk as you feel fit, i am already a hero,
look are you my Cousin, dont be giving me no talk of 3x this or that, and dont be saying words like removed, are you related to me, dont talk no daft talk, look just tell the truth, what you afraid of , you are in the comony of me, you so lucky, i am the only ony left, how about that then, i know the lot,what about the photo do you want one, then you got to give me one, sure i,m hansome as hell,
merr, come on Sky theres more in the records that you tell, remember i am the last of the last, there will be no more after me, make the most of it for tomorows people i have lots to say, good luck to you now with love xxx
2 kids birth certificates from my 3rd great gran parents and 1 birth certificate from a 4th great uncle... Place of birth is give as Smith's field, Kings Meadow rd, Nottingham. The names are of no real importance because you'd need a tree to place them on...
both these parents of the kids would be Rebecca Wilsher uncles.
The Cuneus is the 1901, Fred Wilsher and family plus Joseph Wilsher and Family... Both being Rebecca Wilsher uncles. One being my 3rd great grand father.
There is at least 3 different bothers, that are stated as being in the Smith's field over a 10ish year gap... So I can only believe this was a camp site of some sorts.
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look i have lots of records, lots if you research on the newspaper archives, show me the words on the records you have i would like to read them as they were wrote
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Birth certificate
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1901 census
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looks like your on to something, i have been looking at maps of this area from a time back and i can not find relavant informaion, not yet, i will have to look into some of the things i found, it may be a few months from now, Smith as in George i will say may have been a sort of top man of thoes lands, they are known also as waste lands and such but it looks like theres an answer to your find, Kings Meadow road and Hawthorne street lead on to the same land, maybe they had to mention a sort of name in a legal record, the most name i have read of is George Smith from these lands, he was in more places to, there will be more answers to this story i am sure it will come, there is a builders merchants named Wicks there now its in the land behind that building, i offten think of them all, i pass thoes land every day now, i work out the town and head of over Cliffton bridge, it was the lands round the old Cliffton pit that we know and talk of, i found this place several yeares back but you are the first to put a sort of name to it, i am nearly sure Smiths field is the same as what i have wrote of many times, we will see where this goes, i saw a record of William in his van, it said it was painted in colours of red and yellow and such, theres much more to theses storys, your doing good, keep up the good work
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Sky
i have been looking at over all my old writings of notes collected in the old way that i first did, from what i have seen the things you found are the oldest records yet. they are Wilsher People, the Smiths are later so far in records, Hawthorne street is to be reserched more, i will try and find out as much as i can and put it on your thread here, i have lots of records already and will write them up one at a time trying to work out the truth
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Sky, i was looking and maybe its only a maybe, well the name Smiths field could of come from one of the local farmers, there is a farmer below who fits the bill, the lands we talk of are right next to him, i think he is on the other side of the river though, i understand all the clues from the writings, he may well or his forefathers owned the land that the Cliffton colliery brought, Smith Field could be an ancient name that died out later, everything is there, i have looked on the old maps and cannot find evidence yet, it was once all just fields and such not long before i would say, the toll bridge at wilford leads right on to Hawthorne street Kings Meadow road and Cremorne street, all these places have had Gipsy Caravans on theire land, i have found out the Gipsys had camps over all these fields from storys i have found, over from the meadows is Wilford which is just up from Bridgford, the Wilford bridge is almost on top of Smiths Field, maybe this is just an ouside chance but its a part of the bigger picture, i will keep trying, after the few things today i put up i will find everything i have and put it on here, then we can search through it all for clues
Friday 19 July 1895
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
NISI PRIUS COURT
(Before Mr. Justice Charles.) His lordship took his seat half-past ten o'clock and was accompanied on the bench by the Mayo (Councillor Joseph Bright), the Under-Sheriff (Councillor J. A. H. Green), Mr. Marsh (Under Sheriff for Notts.) , and Sir S. G. Johnson (Town Clerk).
ACTION FOR DAMAGE GRASS. Smith v. Forman.—ln this action Mr. Georg Smith, farmer, of Wilford, sought to recover from Mr. Arthur Forman of Wilford, the sum o £69 11s., damage done to mowing grass trespass alleged to have been committed by Mr. Forman cattle and horses in the summer of 1893. Mr.H. Y. Stanger (instructed Messrs. Green Williams) appeared for the plaintiff, and Mr Graham (instructed by Messrs. Freeth, Rawson and Cartwright) for the defendant. —In opening the case Mr. Stanger said the parties were occupier of adjoining meadows at Wilford, that of the plaintiff comprising about 19 and a half acres, which the liad out for mowing in May, 1893. Between the fields there was a dyke, and this dyke formed a natural barrier. In the summer of 1893 it was a particularly dry one, and the dyke was frequently dried up. Mr. Forman had a number of horses, cattle, and sheep in his field, and from time to time these animals found their way across the dyke, not once, twice, but repeatedly, week by week, and som-times day by day. Complaints were made by Mr. Smith, and Mr. Forman made certain promises, but nothing was done. On the 12th of July Mr. Smith wrote to Mr. Forman complaining of the trespass of his cattle, and stating that damage had been done up to that time to the amount of £5. The trespass however continued and the summer being dry it was impossible to get a second or third crop of grass, the land being so much trampled upon. In August several complaints were made to Mr. Forman's bailiff, an appointmet was made with Mr. Forman that he should go to the field, and see the extent of the damage, and take some effective steps to keep the cattle from trespassing……..
At the same time he understood that the dyke was being cleared out and expressed the hope that the work would on quickly…….. Mr. John Smith, farmer, Wilford, said that he had seen as many as 30 beasts and a dozen horses belonging tothe defendant in the mowing grass in his field .—Cross examined by Mr. Graham: He was not feeding cattle himself on that land up to the end of June. Counsel suggested that the season was dry one, and that no rain fell up to the end of August the grass did not grow. The witness said that the grass did grow, the Witness heard that Mr. Forman had instructed a boy to watch over the cattle, but he did not see the boy. Some gipsies were allowed to have cattle on a field near by but these animals could not get into his field…… .— Richard Blount said that he was employed in cleaning the new drain in 1893 until July. He had seen horses and ponies belonging to gipsies grazing on the mowing grass in question, and had noticed the gipsies fetch them off in the morning.... . —Edward Ross, who superintended the men making the new drain, said he had seen horses and donkeys belonging to the gipsies encamped the the other side of the drain in the mowing piece.—Samuel Fox, who assisted in cutting the new drain, gave similar evidence . He had seen the animals which did not belong to Mr. Forman in the mowing piece. The cattle could get in by the footbridge put over the dyke by the Clifton Colliery Company.— Thomas Lamin, foreman to Mr. Arthur Forman, said that in 1893 there was a certain amount bother about cattle going backwards and forwards over ihe dyke.Ctle got onto Mr Foremans land, both from the plaintiffs and other peoples fields.Witness had seen animals belonging to gipsies on Mr Smith land…… . So far as they could tell, however, the matter had been very much exaggerated. The gipsies, either rightly or wrongly, had their horses in, and if damage was done it certainly was not all not done by Mr. Foreman……………. Having reviewed the evidence, his Lordship said he thought, he should do justice if he gave judgment for 50 guineas with costs
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Tuesday 12 November 1889
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
THE SAD DROWNING CASE AT WILFORD
THE SAD DROWNING CASE AT WILFORD. INQUEST THIS DAY. This morning an inquest was held by Mr. D. Whittingharo. the District Coroner, at the Ferry Inn, Wilford, Notts., on the body of Harold Jardine Smith, aged three years, whose body was recovered from from the river Trent Wilford yesterday.— Mr. George Smith, of Wilford, farmer and baker, said that the deceased child was his son, and had been in perfect health up until Saturday last. He was able to walk about by himself. Witness last saw him alive about noon on Saturday in the garden, which adjoins the river Trent. Steps led down from the garden to the waterside. The deceased was accustomed to the garden, but had always been forbiddon to go to the water side.—Mrs. M. E. Smith, wife of the witness, deposed to seeing the deceased about half-past three o'clock on Saturday afternoon in the garden, and missing him later about a quarter of on hour after that. She went immediately to look for him, and found his toy waggon near the steps leading to the water's edge. Witness had never allowed deceased to down to the river side and never let him be alone in the garden long.— Police-sergeant Notts Constabulary, stationed at Wilford, said he was present yesterday when the body of the deceased child was recovered from the Trent, near Wilford Bridge. It was at the bottom of the river on the Wilford side.—A verdict of Accidentally drowned was returned. r.i.p
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Thursday 24 October 1872
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
THE FLOODS IN NOTTINGHAMSHIRE.
Since writing our notice of yesterday, there has been a very perceivable increase in the extent of the floods which then prevailed. The rise, the interval, has been considerable, and still continues, with what precise results we are not at present prepared to say. It will, however, easily be understood, even by those of our readers who have not personally experienced the effects of those inundations, that to persons inhabiting in the low-lying districts of the town much discomfort and inconvience of serious kind, and well as, in many cases, no slight damage to property, in the neighbourhood of Willfordbridge and Trent bridge, the water, at the end of Queen’s walk, rushing down with a considerable degree of velocity. Beyond Wilford road the fields present very much the appearance of a sea, the large expanse of water being relieved only by the hedgerows, tree and buildings, which, from their superior elevation, are here and there visible. In some instances the removal of cattle has been rendered necessary by the encroachments of the water. On the tops of some hedges which appeared above the water a number of field mice and rats were to be seen, having been literally been flooded out of their holes, while, floating on the surface of the water, several drowned rabbits and hares have been noticed. At the time of writing,the floodmark is an inch above that of 1857, and between the marks of 1857 and 1869. At a late hour last night the water was within a few feet of the top of the foot-bridge just below the Trent-bridge, and did not appear to give any signs of an early subsidence , but rather the reverse. A great deal of damage has been done by water from the sewers forcing its way into the cellars of many dwelling-houses in the lower parts of the town. In the bakehouse of Mr. Brinkwater, baker and confectioner. Sussex-street, the water is two feet deep, and within a foot and a half of the oven : but fortunately he had not a large stock of flour the place at the time, and had placed a dozen or two sacks boxes and benches by way of precaution. The backwater has also made its way into the cellar of the Radcliffe Arms inn, and in many cellars. — The floods have not left the railways in the vicinity of Nottingham free from their ravages. The rising of the water against the embankment of the Great Northern Railway near Radcliffe was the cause of the giving way of the elevated permanent way; and, besides workmen being detailed to bank it with dirt and stone, night watchmen were placed at different places on the line, so as, if possible, to prevent any accident to passing trains. Near Grantham there was much flood, and the low lying grounds were submerged many acres in extent on the Midland line, between Nottingham and Derby, the fields were under water for a considerable extent, and much damage has been been done, chiefly the gardens. A great deal of inconvenience was also occasioned to the residents of such places as were close to the river. The Trent Bridge and District.—Looking up the river from the Trent-bridge, a vast expanse of water meets the eye, dotted here and 'there the tops of trees and hedges; the latter being almost entirely hidden. The remains of the old bridge are covered by the water only the rippling at the surface denoting that they exist. The rush of water through the arches runs very great, and carries with it portions of trees and other matter collected in its course. The usually placid stream known as the old Trent, which runs by the side of the Water Works, is transformed into a roaring river, and has flooded all the neighbouring fields, and joins the Trent again by the side of the Union Inn. Persons residing in the country experienced difficulty in getting home, owing to the roads being under water, in some instances to a considerable depth. The middle of tho road leading to the Wilford toll bar is under water. This difficulty being overcome, Ruddington may be reached by keeping upon the footpath, although the road in some places is covered with water. Unwary passengers are in great danger of a thorough wetting, if not something more serious; indeed, a tramp coming from Loughborough inadvertently stepped intothe road, and, after going a few yards, found himself standing up to the neck in water, having gone into a dyke close by the road side. His loud cries for help soon brought a number of persons to his assistance, and he was rescued from his queer position just as Sergeant Walker, with ropes and drags, came up. He was taken to the Trent Bridge inn, where, by the kindness of Mrs. Jameson, he was refreshed both inwardly and outwardly, and continued on his journey. After this incident a fire was lighted upon elevated spot, and a watchman placed on the road to warn persons of their danger. The Cricket Ground.— This is covered by the flood ; which…………
At a late hour last at night the water was within a foot from the metals of the Midland Railway near the bridge on the Wilford-road. A tribe of wandering gipsies who had taken up their quarters in one of the arches of the Wilford Bridge, had to move very hastily; as the water rushes through the arches with great velocity, and in a short time would have carried away their fragile dwellings.
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19 September 1850
Nottinghamshire Guardian
Nottinghamshire
Stealing an Axe. —John Smith, a vagrant gipsy, was charged with stealing, on the 12th instant, an axe belonging to John Crabtree. keeper of the West Bridgford toll-bar. On Thursday afternoon the prosecutors grandson was chopping sticks in the yard adjoining the house when the prisoner went into the yard in a state of intoxication. There was nobody at home but the lad and his grandmother. The prisoner asked for a bit of baccy, and then for a glass of beer, which being refused he snatched the axe from the lad's hand,and went away with it. The boy and his grandmother followed, and when they came up with the man he turned round, flourished the axe and said 'If any body, man or woman, comes near me I'll knock their brains out.” He was then allowed away. The same day he was apprehended pc. Pool, at the camp in Wilford lane. where also the axe was found. When asked if he had an axe in his possession which did not belong to him, he replied that he believed he had such a axe, but he did not know where he had got it from. The prisoner pleaded that he was drunk at the time, and did not know what he was doing.—Dismissed with a caution
Tuesday 10 July 1934
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
THE POETRY OF NOTTS
In Praise of Wilford. Dr. Spencer Hall, self-educated from the stocking frame and printing machine to literary eminence wrote the following lines
Wilford: when, first I gazed on thee Whilst leaning o'er upland stile. Thy flooded meads were one vast lake And thou little bowery isle! Time passed, but left me not at rest. untill a pilgrim I had been. All pensive, ’neath thy grey church tower All cheerful on thy rural green. Wilford! whichever way to thee come from thy surrounding plains— Whether Clifton's wood walks dim. Or Bridgford's gipsy-haunted lanes; Or from yon spired and castled town. O’er meads where flowers in myriads blow , Thy scenes so beautify the rest. That all through thee, more lovely grow. Dear village! i have wandered far. And much have known and felt and done. Since first from Lenton fields i saw Thy waters mock the setting sun. As up they sent to heaven again The beams it shed o'er them and thee. While Spring went softly forth and touched With mellower brightness tower and tree
Thursday 05 January 1899
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
—Detective-Sergeant Clifton apoke of arresting the prisoner at Peterborough on a warrant, and he replyed to the charge and said, “I can only plead guilty to it.” witness recovered the harness from gipsies at Giltbrook; the remainder he obtained at a saddler's shop in ilkeston. The barrow found on some waste land at Wilford
Friday 13 January 1899
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
THIS DAY'S POLICE NEWS
A Case for the Sessions.—Geo. Withers, labourer, Stilton. Huntingdon was charged with stealing a pony, a trap and harness, value £10. the property of Arthur Simpson, 25, West-street August 14th. 1898. Joseph Trout, 2. Provident-street, stated that he was employed by the prosecuter and let the defendant have the pony and trap on hire for 6s. with Simpson Prosecutor deposed that the prisoner at one time worked for him. He did not give the prisoner permission to borrow his pony and trap in August. John Smith, travelling dealer, spoke of purchasing the pony and trap from the prisoner for 32s. 6d.. and Clifton said he arrested he the prisoner at Peterborough, Prisoner was committed the Sessions.
Saturday 14 January 1899
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
Labourer Committed to the Sessions. George Withers, labourer, of Stilton, Huntingdon, was charged on remand with the theft of a pony, barrow, and a set of harness, together of the value of £lO, the property of Arthur Simpson, of 25, West-street. According to the evidence the prisoner went to a man named Trout, of Provident-street, a cabman in the employ of the prosecutor, and asked him for a pony, a barrow, and a set cf harness, for which he said he had paid Simpson 6s. Trout let him have them, and had not seen him since.Simpson denied that he had either seen the prisoner or received any money from him. The pony and harness were sold to man named John Smith, living in a caravan in Cremorne-street, for 32s. 6d., and the barrow was found on some waste land near Wilford Bridge. Withers was arrested at Peterborough Detective-sergeant Clifton, when charged by whom he said: I can only plead guilty.—Prisoner was committed to the Sessions.
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Sky
If you read through all the storys above there are clues, i pick up on them for this is my place, i have a feel for everything and know all the land, all these storys have great history clues, the Gipsy people must have been camping round this part of the town yeares and yeares ago, much more to learn, we will get there in the end, when i put every record on i can find we will try and work everything out and who is who, evan the Belgium Gipsies was campt in their caravans, but George Smith hammered them rotten and smashed theire caravans up, he evan smashed theire fiddles up, try and find the clues yourself ,look for things like the colliery land and things like that, trust me they are all in a stones throw of each other, everything connects, what does Smiths field meen, as yet we can not truthfully say
Tuesday 21 June 1927
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
A DAMAGED FENCE
When George Smith, living In a caravan Hawthorne-street, Nottingham appeared at the Summons Court yesterday charged with damaging to the extent of 40s a fence belonging to the Clifton Colliery Co the watchmin said that on 9 June he saw the defendant (who owned four horses) pull down the fence and lead the animals Into a field beyond. When he was spoken to he said: Somebody’s got to keep them. The defendant declared that the fence had been down since the coal stoppage, and that he had been told the field was tip ground which he could take his horses. A fine of £3 was imposed
Monday 20 June 1927
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
CARAVANER AND HORSES. NOTTINGHAM CONVICTION FOR FENCE DAMAGE.
It was said of George Smith, of the Caravan, Hawthorne-street.,who was summoned at the Nottingham Guidhall to-day for wilfully damaging a fence to the extent of 40s., the property of the Clifton Colliery Company, that he pulled down the fence, and fetching his four horses drove them into a field mowing the grass owned by the company. Mr. R. A. Young prosecuted, and a watchman at the colliery said that when he spoke to defendant about the fence, the man replied, I have got 'em (the horses) and someone has got to keep 'em. Smith, who created much amusement with his excitable attitude in the dock, declared that the fence had been down since the colliers were on strike. He further stated that the land upon which he sent the horses was tip land. A fine of was imposed.
when you click on this link below just then click on the link at the top, and there is the land, at the top of that big chimney, and that the old Wilford toll bridge from some of the storys i just put on, where the Gipsies camp, can you see the archers on the left bank, and at the bottom is the Cliffton colliery site and power station land, and just over the river i think that is the old Smiths field from the farmer storys
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjs_f78x4TLAhUDNxQKHYYPAG4QjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.britainfromabove.org.uk%2Fimage%2Fepw021043&psig=AFQjCNHm8XjF24wX40pNVIar6ueQqGmYow&ust=1455996453213373
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Robert Mellors, Old Nottingham suburbs: then and now Wilford 1914
little extracs
NORTH WILFORD
By an Order of the Local Government Board, made in 1894, the parish of Wilford was divided, and that part of the parish to the north of the Trent was directed to be called North Wilford. It will surprise some people to be told how large a portion of Nottingham Meadows was in the original parish, and now forms the new parish named
The Wilford Meadow was the land west of what we call Wilford Boad, now the Colliery district, and south of "The King's Meadow." In a perambulation of the boundaries of Sherwood Forest in 1505, the officers started from the King's Castell att Nottingham, "and then by the Ould Trentt to the oulde corse of the watter of Leene (which is the bound between the King's medows and the medow of Wilford " etc. B. B., 413.
Between the King's Meadow and Wilford Meadow, it is probable, the boundary was a great dyke. A lithographic view of Nottingham was taken by Henry Burn in 1845, apparently from the northern boundary dyke of Wilford parish, at the junction of King's Meadow and Wilford Roads. It shows the footpath to the ferry, and the dyke, with a tree prominent in the foreground. A copy of this picture appears in "In and about Notts.," page 248.
Crocuses. At the middle of the last century millions of crocuses were growing on both parts of North Wilford meadows, forming a sight of beauty such as no-one who had seen them could ever forget. They are nearly all gone now. Two fields near the Colliery survive, west of Bosworth road Schools. But why mourn over lost flowers?
The places where they grew are occupied with houses, and the houses are full of children, and the children are more beautiful, and of greater value than the flowers.
Colliery. There are in North Wilford two parts necessarily and permanently divided. In the west section the Colliery is the principal feature. When the Pit was sunk, and the Colliery opened out, the business was for several years carried on in the name of Mr. Saul Isaacs as proprietor, until in 1876 the Clifton Colliery Company, Ltd., was formed. It is now the largest employer of labour in the parish, usually having 1,000 workmen and boys,
Schools.
The Bosworth Road Schools were opened in 1886, suggests that the names of local streets are reminiscent of the end of the Wars of the Roses, and of the Civil War.
click on this link below then click on the x at the top when the link opens, then at the bottom middle is the old Wilford toll bridge, just up from there is Bosworth street, thats next to Hawthorne street but its not marked on there , you can see the old Cremorne ground and Kings Meadow road, the bleach works is on the land, i think thoes are allotments of gardens on the bottom of the land, have you got your bearings, the Toll bridge has only the brick pairs left the middle span they pulled down years ago and put up a rubbish mettle bit, i used to go over the old Toll into Wilford with my Mother long ago, it was real narrow, i think thats why they pulled it down maybe, or maybe it was unsafe, that was a long time ago, my Mother the champion at getting the deal, door knocking hawking, what ever you call it in what ever time, you still had to get the deal, boy ho boy, sometimes she got no money but would come back with food, evan a clock or a painting, one day she came back with a dog in her pocket, a deal is a deal, i liked to count the money on the floor, happy days, long days ago
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101603268
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That's some really good information about the area, if there was a farmer in the area with the name smith, it could be a fair assumption to think the land name was given as smith field because that family owned it...
There could of even been seasonal work on the Smith farm/ fields, hence why the Wilsher family keep showing up in this place, ofc a great deal of more reserch is needed, hopefully as I purchase more certificates, this area turns up more.
I also now have Rebecca Wilsher's fathers birth certificate now too... If you have a email address I will happily send you a copy.
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Sky
If you read through these storys you will read of the land that we think is Smiths Field from your research finds in the records of the Wilshers camping there in their caravans in the 1890s now known below as waste lands, Colliery lands or land Belonging to Mr. H. Brown and Messrs. Brothers. offten it is stated in the storys that Hawthorne street and Kings Meadow Road is like a side address, in one of the storys below it says George Smith broke down a fence to get into a field there, this would be proof of a kind that proved he as a Smith did not own any land there and the Smith name of the Field in the older storys connected to the Wilshers was not connected to him so must derive its name elsewhere, look how also it states in one story.........
"George Smith, of the Caravan, Hawthorne-street"
Nottingham 1909
After numerous written notices and two and one quarter hours of argument, a body of Gipsies were removed from land in Hawthorne street, Nottingham. Belonging, Mr. H. Brown and Messrs. Brothers. For two or three years this land has been the free habitat of the Bohemians, the landowners, in co-operation with the city sanitary inspector, determined to them, notice of eviction Mr. Brown's agent, together with two gentlemen from Red Lion-street, two other men' on behalf of Chorley Brothers, and a couple of policemen, at nine o'clock this morning. Perhaps the order had not been taken seriously, for the encampment had yet made the slightest preparation, and the only horse fetched from the fields was promptly sent away when the police were spotted. There were three caravans, in which some 15 people lived, Billy Bacon, pleaded that his only available horse was lame, and refused to quit. Thereupon the two gentlemen from
Red Lionstreet, capable looking, stepped to the front
“The first man who touches my van I'll lay out" intimated Billy, the powerful looking fellow standing over six feet high. The gentlemen from Red Lion-street consulted, and decided that they could not interfere under the circumstances. Meanwhile, one of the owners of the other vans said he was quite willing
"to have a flutter'’ and stand the consequences.
Someone was despatched to negotiate
FIGHT AMONGST THE GIPSIES 1918
As sequel to regular melee between bands of Gipsies who have settled on a waste piece of land in Hawthorne street, Nottingham, George Smith, 57, popularly known as "Gipsy Smith," appeared at the Nottingham Guildhall to day charged with wilfully damaging a caravan, three violins, and other property, value £20. belonging to basali, a swarthy looking foreigner who has not yet mastered the english language. Smith was also charged with assaulting Barthelmy Ferret, another van dweller. so far as the charges of assault were concerned permission was asked to withdraw them on the understanding that prisoner compensated prosecutor for damage. Mr. Clayton for Smith facetiously remarked that was a demonstration of Gipsy love, adding that prisoner was not an evangelist, though born and bred in a tent. (laughter) Smith ordered to pay the £20 to Basali, Prisoner expressed his gratitude to the magistrates
Monday 20 June 1927
CARAVANER AND HORSES. NOTTINGHAM CONVICTION FOR FENCE DAMAGE.
It was said of George Smith, of the Caravan, Hawthorne-street.,who was summoned at the Nottingham Guidhall to-day for wilfully damaging a fence to the extent of 40s., the property of the Clifton Colliery Company, that he pulled down the fence, and fetching his four horses drove them into a field mowing the grass owned by the company. Mr. R. A. Young prosecuted, and a watchman at the colliery said that when he spoke to defendant about the fence, the man replied, I have got 'em (the horses) and someone has got to keep 'em. Smith, who created much amusement with his excitable attitude in the dock, declared that the fence had been down since the colliers were on strike. He further stated that the land upon which he sent the horses was tip land. A fine of was imposed.
when you click on this link below just then click on the link at the top, and there is the land, at the top of that big chimney, and that the old Wilford toll bridge from some of the storys i just put on, where the Gipsies camp, can you see the archers on the left bank, and at the bottom is the Cliffton colliery site and power station land, and just over the river i think that is the old Smiths field from the farmer storys
Nottingham 1931
The gallant rescue of two horses from a burning stable in Hawthorne-street, The Meadows, Nottingham, early this morning, was effected by Albert Ashley, a travelling showman, living in a caravan on a piece of waste ground in Hawthorne-street.
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Sky
Did you read the information in one of the above posts i sent, in one of the accounts from this book below its states about the Dyke Drain, and Fields next to Bosworth Road ....."Two fields near the Colliery survive"
Robert Mellors, Old Nottingham suburbs: then and now Wilford 1914
NORTH WILFORD
Between the King's Meadow and Wilford Meadow, it is probable, the boundary was a great dyke. A lithographic view of Nottingham was taken by Henry Burn in 1845, apparently from the northern boundary dyke of Wilford parish, at the junction of King's Meadow and Wilford Roads. It shows the footpath to the ferry, and the dyke
Crocuses. At the middle of the last century millions of crocuses were growing on both parts of North Wilford meadows, forming a sight of beauty such as no-one who had seen them could ever forget. They are nearly all gone now. Two fields near the Colliery survive, west of Bosworth road Schools. But why mourn over lost flowers?
The places where they grew are occupied with houses, and the houses are full of children, and the children are more beautiful, and of greater value than the flowers.
Sky click on this link below that i sent you before, it lets you zoom right in, at the bottom is the area we talk of, and see Bosworth Road to, look at the Dyke, there is massive amounts of evidence in all the storys to start forming a bigger picture, do not just collect pieces of paper, thats just like a game, you want to learn of the Wilshers and their life as i do, its not that easy though, you can just collect census records, i notice you refear to such things in a way that they are hard evidence, theres far more to People than most people are innterested in, you can only be yourself i guess, i am just being me
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101603268
Sky read again all the evidence try and look into the storys, they all contain evidence, it is easy like most people do and just skip through storys and only look for a name or a date, this way of researching is just like playing a jigzaw puzzle or card game, most people just are not rearly innterested in the truth, its the taking part in a bit of a fun time that they like, you wanted to find out about Smiths Field, if at the end you may write a book or a great report up of the Wilshers, you have done a very good job of it so far, well done
Friday 19 July 1895
ACTION FOR DAMAGE GRASS. Smith v. Forman.—ln this action Mr. Georg Smith, farmer, of Wilford, sought to recover from Mr. Arthur Forman of Wilford, the sum o £69 11s., damage done to mowing grass trespass alleged to have been committed by Mr. Forman cattle and horses in the summer of 1893. that of the plaintiff comprising about 19 and a half acres, which the liad out for mowing in May, 1893. Between the fields there was a dyke, and this dyke formed a natural barrier. In the summer of 1893 it was a particularly dry one, and the dyke was frequently dried up. Some gipsies were allowed to have cattle on a field near by but these animals could not get into his field…… Richard Blount said that he was employed in cleaning the new drain in 1893 until July. He had seen horses and ponies belonging to gipsies grazing on the mowing grass in question, and had noticed the gipsies fetch them off in the morning.... . —Edward Ross, who superintended the men making the new drain, said he had seen horses and donkeys belonging to the gipsies encamped at the other side of the drain in the mowing piece.—Samuel Fox, who assisted in cutting the new drain, gave similar evidence . He had seen the animals which did not belong to Mr. Forman in the mowing piece. The cattle could get in by the footbridge put over the dyke by the Clifton Colliery Company.— Thomas Lamin, foreman to Mr. Arthur Forman, said that in 1893 there was a certain amount bother about cattle going backwards and forwards over ihe dyke.Cattle got onto Mr Foremans land, both from the plaintiffs and other peoples fields. Witness had seen animals belonging to gipsies on Mr Smith land…… . So far as they could tell, however, the matter had been very much exaggerated. The gipsies, either rightly or wrongly, had their horses in, and if damage was done it certainly was not all not done by Mr. Foreman……………. Having reviewed the evidence, his Lordship said he thought, he should do justice if he gave judgment for 50 guineas with costs
"Richard Blount said that he was employed in cleaning the new drain in 1893 until July. He had seen horses and ponies belonging to gipsies grazing on the mowing grass in question, and had noticed the gipsies fetch them off in the morning.... . —Edward Ross, who superintended the men making the new drain, said he had seen horses and donkeys belonging to the gipsies encamped at the other side of the drain in the mowing piece.—Samuel Fox, who assisted in cutting the new drain, gave similar evidence . He had seen the animals which did not belong to Mr. Forman in the mowing piece. The cattle could get in by the footbridge put over the dyke by the Clifton Colliery Company"
and liston to this Cliffton Colliery is on the same side of the river as Hawthorne Street, think about it, that must or may meen George Smith the Farmer had one of the fields and thats why it was known in the older records as Smiths Field, its only a maybe we have to start somewhere
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https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/the-gypsys-encampment-nottingham-from-wilford-hill-22830
Sky there is Nottingham about no more than two miles away, just down in the trent valley is the places we talk of, if you look between the gap in the two trees on the right just above that horse you will see a big hill, i live just over there, about a mile from this picture or a bit less is the river Trent and the lands we talk of, its just straight ahead in the picture, the flat low lands, trust me i know all these lands, the wind would carry the water that was evaperated from the sea inland, when it met high ground it gathered into dark clouds, then it rained in little brooks then streams then into the river Trent , then of to the Sea, in the old times there was the ice age, they had what you call claziers, big rivers of ice, they carved out vast highways in low lighing land, look at the picture in the link above, this is the Trent Valley, behond is Nottingham, yeares back the Gipsies stoped in the Farmers fields but the incloser laws and such drove them nearer to the Town, closers to the City, the Gipsies have been round my town for hundreds of yeares, its just, the writer people have been looking for a people who never existed, the Gipsies have always been alive, why did strangers just think they have to talk of them like exstinct dinosaurs
Robert Mellors, Old Nottingham suburbs: then and now [West Bridgford] (1914)extract
When Throsby, about one hundred and twenty years ago, visited the place, he described it as old Inclosure—that is enclosed probably in the sixteenth or seventeenth century. It was well built, and consisted of about thirty dwellings. "Mr. Hornbuckle, a gentleman of considerable property, resides in one, built in a pretty style. A resident, of the name of Easton, is now in good health at the advanced age of ninety. The Clerk informed me that there was not a dissenter in the place!!" It was, however, a favourite haunt for gipsies, being near to the town, but outside the stricter supervision. The Wilford Lane, near to Boots' Pleasaunce Grounds, was a choice spot. Spencer Hall in the "Peak and Plain" sings—
"Wilford whichever way to thee we come
From thy surrounding plains,
Whether by Clifton's wood walks dim,
Or Bridgford's Gipsy haunted lanes."
H. Hampton Copnall, Nottinghamshire County Records: Notes and Extracts from the Nottinghamshire County Records of the 17th Century, Henry B. Saxton, 1915 extract
The Justices had full power at any time to cancel Licences, and they did so on the complaint or at the instance of inhabitants of Parishes:
In 1615, the Justices outside Sessions had made an Order disallowing certain tipulators before allowed and licensed, from keeping alehouses, but a Certificate under the hands of the Inhabitants of Wilford was presented that one of the above Richard Cooke "was so well behaved and modest and governed his house without disorders or bad behaviour." He was allowed by the Court to continue his house.
On 14th July, 1617, a Certificate was read that both the Inhabitants of Lenton and the County near adjacent to it sustain great damage and detriment by the Keepers of Alehouses and tiplers in Lenton, who frequently under colour of harbouring honest travellers receive and harbour thieves, prostitutes, cut-purses and other persons of the worst kind, "And because Nottingham is a market town near adjacent and a place convenient for harboring travellers, there is no need for a superfluity of tipplers nor of any of them to lodge for the night and harbor any wayfarers." The Constables were ordered to prohibit all those who brew or keep alehouses or tippling houses in Lenton whether with or without licence, and from then those with licences were to relinquish same.
On 6th October, 1680, a Complaint was made of a disorderly alehouse to ye great disturbance of neighbours and the Constable of Caunton was ordered to suppress the Keeper thereof from brewing or selling of any more beare or ale.
There were a large number of Indictments and presentments against Brewers and alehouse keepers for offences "contrary to the tenor of license," such as the following:
For harbouring persons or permitting them to tipple in the Alehouse during prohibited hours, such as at night time or on the Sabbath "during time of prayer."
For allowing drinking and playing at cards and other unlawful games in the Alehouse, and bad behaviour.
For disorders and bad behaviour in the Alehouse, and for harboring lewde and uncivil company and gipsies in the house.
For drunkenness.
For receiving stolen goods, &c, &c.
Sky thank you for saying you would let me share your records that you have, you said you would send me a copy of Rebeccas Dad, that was very kind of you, thank you for thinking of me
Sky look at these words below from the above words
" The Wilford Lane, near to Boots' Pleasaunce Grounds, was a choice spot." this place is near to the lands we talk of
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Sky
Do not forget my old posts from a few yeares back, read again where lots of the Wilshers are burried
Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
« Reply #185 on: Saturday 02 January 16 08:37 GMT (UK) »
Quote
I would often go with my Mother to pay respects to People at Wilford Hill, there are lots there
names like William, Joseph, Percy, Henry, Edward, James, Frederick, Maria ,Rebecca, Letty, and more those sorts of names
lots we new of, lots as come as a surprise to me, I'm as sure as sure can be thoe that there all related, and more to, same as those other cemetery's, they were just ordinary people living there own life in there own time, there were no fancy kings or great names known by others, no fancy big gravstones, not nothing at all much just People gone now to this life, but I will speak more of them and what I know another time, oral history,
there on the right side as you go in the main entrance, up that little winding path, i know this is true for i was there, i hope this is of help one day, some of there relatives will look, and they will find there way through my words, all those times long ago I would jump and skip along that path, seems so long ago now, my Mother had great love for the Dead, happy days,
most were born mid to late 1800s,I think there are more over at the northern bulwell cemetery,
but I was never there, I seen their names on records, I would say some could be right,
pluss on some records its not just the last name that can be spelled differently, where people have marriage records giving a Fathers name say George,
and yet they can not connect a George to an older Family that stands out as true, this is be course on records I have seen William be known as George William, then just William, so if you come across say a George don't be thinking that was the only name he went by,
you have to take no notice of what you think is the right way of researching, you are dealing with people far different from anyways you thought was possible
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Hi, Today I received the birth certificate for the daughter of George Smith bn 1868-1941 "Gypsy Smith" and Ellen Clayton. Esmeralda Smith was born In a Van, Roberts Road, Leicester on 25 Feb 1905. On the 1911 census she is down as Esperella - then I have lost all trace of her, but will keep on looking... Kx
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Hi Kizi
Nice one, thats rearly interesting, would you write up the full history that you know of these Smiths on here, everyone is connected in some way, i love genealogy, its great, rearly good, no its brilliant, fanstastic, you to are doing rearly good, i am very proud of your great efforts, well done Lady, it as been a pleasure indeed to have such a fine aquaintance as your most beautifull self, indeed i am very lucky, but i will share the luck with you, we shall give Sky a third share, its only right, Sky sure as done massive amounts of research, of course i remember you saying on another thread that you said you would answer any question i ask if you new the answer, did you think i forgot, its just not the time yet, if you can tell of the Smiths of Georges i would be very grateful, plus the Claytons, are they the Gipsies from the Black Patch, they are the Clayton Smiths i have read much of, i have lots of storys of the Claytons but some i am not sure if they are the ones you talk of, they may just be locals, it does not matter which way, its all apart of the bigger story we all should look for, we should on our journey be educated to all that comes to us, everything counts, everyone counts, this is the right way of looking back in the past, this shows the past who we are in their future, the future ones will then learn from us when we are gone the right and proper way of going on, these few storys below are just people they are more than likley locals just living their life, its interesting tho, i learn everyday of my life that learning makes you a more fuller person
12 October 1883
Derbyshire Advertiser and Journal
Derbyshire
Ellen Clayton, chair bottomer, was charged with stealing a fowl, value 2s., on the Ist of Oct., from in barn Hulland Ward. Her husband was also charged with the same offence, but had absconded.—The Bench committed the woman to gaol for month, with hard labour.
Wednesday 15 November 1882
Derby Mercury
Derbyshire, England
—Ellen Clayton and Frederick Clayton tramps, were charged with stealing a half sovereign, at Tickenhall, the property of John Orton, on the 3rd inst
Wednesday 03 March 1886
Derbyshire Times and Chesterfield Herald
Derbyshire
Relations at Loggerheads.—Matthew Clayton, grinder, of Short's Yard, pleaded guilty to assaulting Henry Booth, gardener, and Janet Clayton, of Church lane. Booth said he did not wish to press the charge against defendant and Mrs Clayton expressed a similar wish. -Defendant said he was very sorry for what occurred. On Saturday night he had heard a lot of family talk, and he wiped his brother-in-law over the mouth, and his sister-in-law flew at him with a poker, and he pushed her back by putting his against her stomach. —The magistrates discharged the defendant on payment of the costs, 15s.
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look at this for great evidence, this is looking out at the church opposite the lands we talk of, that's the church in the map i put on in the link from a few posts back, opposite the lands where they all campt on, Hawthorne street yeares later would be behind the artist painting this picture, look at the little brook stream flowing into the Trent, this is evidence of the old dykes that they made into drains in the storys i have found, that would be Smith farmland over the river i would say,maybe anyway, this is great evidence to back up everything yet found
Artist: Barber, Thomas - Title: The Trent at Wilford - Date: 1840 - Original Medium and Size: Oil on Canvas 48.9 x 62.2
https://www.nottinghamprints.co.uk/fine-art/landscapes/trent-wilford-1745521.html
and look at this painting from the opposite side looking towards Nottingham there are the lands we talk of the Kings Meadow area, Hawthorne street, the artist this time would be on the land of the Smith Farmer, he may have had land over the river to, but these two paintings have great history clues that together with the old storys from the newspapers and the legal papers like census things and such show us a big picture is emerging of the past, look how the animals are going in and over the high pebble grounds in the river, this is what is mentions in the storys i found saying about how the animals could stray into another farmers land, history is great, the truth is there, you just have to want to know it
View At Wilford, Nottingham, by Benjamin Shipman, ca 1830 27 x 39 in., oil on canvas
https://www.nottinghamprints.co.uk/nottingham-views/view-wilford-nottingham-benjamin-shipman-ca-5851617.html
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I will write up George's story (What I know it) when I'm fresh and awake, I'll get my facts right then... - he is the son of John "Johnny 2 wives" Smith and his 1st co-wife Maria Smith, the other co-wife was her sister Carolina Smith. Kx
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Hi Sky & Kizi
Sky read all of this story about the history of Wilford Toll Bridge, first there was a ferry there going back hundreds of yeares, Gipsies must of used this as one of the ways into Nottingham, i have been looking for you to let you know, so you will start to think of Smiths field as more than a name, the bigger picture is now emerging of why the Gipsies over hundreds of yeares campt around these places, there must of been several such places that surrounded Nottingham, we found the one at Radford, now we are finding more and more the history of the South side of the City, reread all the posts that are done in this thread to, or check through them, combined with this latest post and photos you will work out yourself and see the bigger picture with colour, i am glad you put this post up it helped me to see, just when you think you have found something and then more information comes to light you realise you are but standing in a dark room trying to view the past and meet the People, one day they come to you and help you, they draw back the curtain that holds back the days of the past and they allow you see the night, thank you for putting up your post i have come to learn what i only thought i may know and still i know there will be much more to come
https://nottinghamhiddenhistoryteam.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/archaeology-along-the-tram-route-wilford/
this is the best set of photos i found to show you, you must look through all of them and get a feel for the history, look at the old signe on the Toll House saying of how much things cost like taking a horse and cart and such over the old bridge, i bet that old church Wilfreds knows some secrets and the Ferry Inn public house, evan though we have found lots i bet we know not much at all, i wander is Smith Field from the name of the old farmer or is there another answer, i will keep looking, they used to call it the half penny bridge from some of the writings i have been reading, this from the old tolls of the past times, but how mad is this, well i now rember it being called the penny bridge when i was small, well i am sure it was a penny not the half penny, i rember my Mother taking me across and telling how you had to pay the man in the toll bearth a penny, this as been a great time for me to learn all about the Wilshers and all the other People in these storys, thank you for starting your request, it as helped me to find understand learn and respect, well done
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wilford_Toll_Bridge
this below is the old painting of the ferry that was there before the toll bridge was built, by John Holland 1831-1879- Wilford Ferry, Nottingham (The Cherry-Eatings)
https://www.nottinghamprints.co.uk/fine-art/landscapes/wilford-ferry-nottingham-the-cherry-eatings-1745547.html
Sky
this one will give you a feel for the location and distance of inner Nottingham back in the older times, just to the left is the old Trent Bridge, this is upstream about half a mile i would say from the old Toll Bridge and old Hawthorne Street, in this day everything is joined up by buildings and just one mass of everything, but in this old painting see the old Castle on the left on the high sanstone rock, and then to the right is the two old churchers well the big Church on the far right is St Marys where my Mother was taken as a child, when She died we took her back to the same Church, i think if i remember the Castle is the land of the Normans after the 1066 invation and the high ground of St Marys was the old Saxon lands, i think i got that right, St Marys as lots of history, Dan Boswells wife Sarah was taken there when She died, i tryed to find Her, it was stated there were three burriel grounds for graves but one was dug up and the bones reburried at Wilford if i remember so She may be there now, i think i saw records of Woodwards over the years at that Church to but i have found that history is full of names in every timescale, thats when the census reports and other legal records help, i do not know how to find thoes records, and i dont want to, i like this way of looking, keep up the good work you have done very well, i was just thinking to myself, maybe the Gipsies through many old yeares past down the old camping grounds through relatives telling of the history, and the truth could be that it was the Citys that came to them, what i meen is the Gipsies used the same old farms grounds lands or things like that for generations but the Towns and Citys expanded, through these storys we have found Gipsies have been on these Fields for hundreds of yeares, they used to be on the outside of the City, by the middle to late 1800s the City was knocking on their door, something to think of, it could be a clue
https://www.nottinghamprints.co.uk/fine-art/landscapes/nottinghamshire-south-george-lambert-style-of-4016485.html
in this one below you will see old Nottingham on the right, the river Trent to the left, now do you see the big hill to the South, well thats Wilford Hill, the low lands below this hill are in the middle known as the Kings Meadows where Hawthorne street was and Kings Meadow Road, the farmers lands that the old Gipsies campt on are all these lands, in later yeares the City grew and now you cannot evan see Wilford Hill its all one mass of roads and buildings
https://www.nottinghamprints.co.uk/fine-art/landscapes/colwick-hill-nottingham-1745845.html
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Kizi
i looked for you in Leicestershire, you said Georges farther was from that way and George to at some point, i have been trying to collect storys so you may link back through locations and names, you never know some thing may turn up, George Smith of Nottingham was around Hawthorne Street Kings Meadow Road, the land that is maybe Smiths Field, i hope you have learned from these few post i have more on the Smith Claytons from the Leicestershire way, in time i will put them on to see if they may help you, Vince is from the Smiths, he told me most came out of Northamptonshire and spread out, they must of first settled there hundreds of yeares ago and becourse there came to be so many some of them had to find new land
Tuesday 04 October 1904
Market Harborough Advertiser and Midland Mail
Leicestershire
FORTUNE TELLER SENT TO PRISON. Hattie Smith, alias Emily Clayton, married, a hawker, of no fixed residence, was charged, at the County: Police Court, on Tuesday, with stealing 27s. 6d., belonging to Sarah Seaton, at Great Wigston, on March 30th ...
Saturday 11 May 1889
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
A fire broke ont in a gipsy camp at Merryhill between Handsworth and Smethwick, on Friday morning, and Carnathia Clayton, a girl aged five, was burned to death
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Saturday 05 February 1887
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
THE KING OF THE GIPSIES. When the gipsies were allowed to encamp in the lanes and waste grounds of Leicestershire and other counties, Absolom Smith was their recognised king they had their code of laws, and any infringement of them Absolom adjudicated upon, and his decision was final. Absolom Smith was a tall man,of dark complexion, black hair, with long curls on each side of his face. He generally wore a long blue coat (with large silver buttons thereon, with hislnitials engraven upon them), breeches, leggings, and silver-buckled shoes. The king of the gipsies was a good athlete, and was especially a good runner and jumper. I heard an uncle say that he had seen him jump six yards at a stand jump. He could fiddle well by the ear, and used to play at country feasts. I have danced, with others to his fiddling at Scalford feast. One Whitsuntide. Tuesday I was in Melton Mowbray playclose, and the king was there. It appeared that a donkey stood on the fiddle of one of his sons and injured it. A little urchin (a grandson of the king) called out, Grand- pau ! grandpau ! the stupid ass has broken my father's fiddle. The king replied, Oh!if I had been there I would have slain him. One of Absolom's daughters, Beatta by name, was considered to be extremely handsome. I have heard it said that a fine portrait of her (taken in a red cloak) hung on the wall of an apartment in Belvoir Castle. Beatta had 24 children. On one occasion she was confined in the camp in Goadby-lane, and was frequently visited by Mrs . Norman, of Goadby Hall, and Mrs. Norman stood sponsor to the child, and it was named after her. Absolom died in 1826, when resurrectionists were very busy in robbing the graveyards of England of their recently interred dead. Absolom's grave was made secure and watched for some time. The following appeared in the obituary of the Leicester Chronicle of Saturday, February 18th1826 :— On Wednesday night, aged 60, Absolom Smith, better known in this neighbourhood as the King of the Gypsies , leaving behind him a wife and 13 children (to whom he is said to have left £100 each) and 54 grandchildren. He was attended in his last illness by Dr. Arnold and two surgeons at his 'camp' in Twyford -lane, and was followed to his grave in Twyford Churchyard by a long retinue of his own tribe on Friday last. He was interred in his coat, the buttons on which were silver and marked ' A.S. Lest this circumstance should be a temptation to dis-turb his body, his followers caused alternate layers of straw and timber to be put into the grave with
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Saturday 28 January 1882
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
Edward Smith, Robert Smith, and Jas. Booth, gipsies, were charged with encamping in Laughton on Monday night. Defendants made fires by the side of the highway between Mr. Smith's ...
Friday 14 May 1880
Leicester Journal
Leicestershire
Mary Ana Smith, a gipsy, was finedj 2s. 6d. and 17s. costs, for allowing two horses to stray on the ...
Saturday 11 December 1880
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
Alleged Theft —Isaiah Smith and Divers Smith, pedlars, both of Leicester, were charged with stealing 12 6., from George Mutton, of Market Harborough, on the 2nd ...
Friday 19 January 1877
Leicester Journal
Leicestershire
DISTRICT INTELLIGENCE
... the child, Elizabeth Bellingham, said she was a single woman, and lived with a gipsy named Israel Smith. They lived in a tent, and had no fixed abode. Elvina Smith took the child to Dr. Lakin, Leicester, on Tuesday and Wednesday last. said it was not to ...
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Saturday 05 June 1875
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
COUNTY PUBLIC OFFICE
... John Smith, a man and a boy, were charged with sleeping-out — the prisoners were lying under a stack at Belgrade. The man was asleep; and both were covered with straw. Riley had three half-pence in his possession, but Smith was ...
Friday 16 October 1874
Leicester Journal
Leicestershire
MARKET HARBOROUGH
Supt. Holioway charged Israel Smith and Robert Smith, two gypsies, with being drunk and riotous on the highway Market Harborough, on September 19th.—P.C. Aspell said, he was sent
Saturday 06 January 1872
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
CRIMINAL BUSINESS
STEALING RAZORS. Benjamin Clayton alias James Clayton, 49, razor grinder, pleaded guilty to stealing five razors, value 5s.,
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Friday 05 January 1872
Leicester Journal
Leicestershire
TRIALS OF PRISONERS.—TUESDAY
Benjamin Clayton alias James Clayton, 49, razor grinder (gipsy), was indicted for stealing five razors, value 5s, the property of George Callis, at Markfield ...
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Saturday 08 July 1871
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
Melton.— Petty Sessions, July 4.—(Before W. A. Pochin and T. W. Claggett, Esqrs.)— John Smith, chair mender, Wymondham, Israel Smith, fiddler, no residence, and Bob Holland, chair maker, of Collingham, Notts., were charged by P.C. Bott ...
Friday 08 September 1871
Leicester Journal
Leicestershire
Joseph Smith, 49, chair bottomer, and Israel Smith, chair bottomer, no residence, were charged with stealing from a field, at Barkstone, on the night of or ...
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Saturday 19 March 1864
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
The Ringstead Murder. — The expectation that the trial of Weekley Ball for the murder of Lydia Atley would take place at the Assizes has been disappointed Ball is discharged, without having had the charge against him investigated, even by the grand jury. Mr. Serjeant Tozer, on the part of the prosecution, stated that there were certain defects in the evidence which rendered it desirable that no bill Should be presented to the jurry. Within a short time an addition had been made to the evidence, and he therefore thought the case could not now be carefully investigated. A few minutes later the learned Sergeant added that important additions had been lately made to the evidence and he was instructed that there were some more additional facts which had not been fully investigated. Without, of course, imputing to the prosecution the intention in any degree to mislead the public, we cannot help thinking that this statement may tend to induce a belief that the case against Ball has been strengthened since his committal by the-magistrates by the discovery of facts of a serious character. We may, we think, take upon ourselves to say that this would be an erroneous conclusion, shown to be so by the very course adopted by the prosecution. If there were within a grasp important facts which only required arrangement and investigation, the prisoner would, of course, have made his detention more necessary than before, and this might have been pursued by the grand jury. That there may be some additional evidence calculated to strengthen the belief that the disappearance of Lydia Atley could not have been accomplished by herself un- assisted, and that she was therefore, probably murdered, is possible enough.But the main part of the additional evidence is certainly in the opposite direction. On Friday week a second skeleton was found lying foot to foot with the first — the skeleton of an adult man of six foot stature. On Monday two others were discovered in the immediate vicinity, a little nearer to Mr. Peach's lodge; and other traces of human remains are talked of. The truth, in fact, has oozed out that Ringstead open-field was greatly frequented by gypsies, who ordinarily buried their dead there. The practice was carried out to such an extent that fifty years ago legal steps were taken to check. it is of course obvious enough that these discoveries are nearly fatal to that of the skeleton first found with the body of Lydia Atley. It may be assumed that the murderer, whoever he was, chose the open-field for the burial of the body, precisely because it was known to be a kind of gipsy cemetery, and that therefore the disturbance of the ground would be less likely to attract notice ; but it is to be remembered that a vigilant search was made by the police at the time, and the fact that the open- field was popularly known to be a gipsies' burial ground would almost inevitably lead to the search in that direction.
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Saturday 17 January 1863
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
Absalom Smith and Divers Smith, gypsies, of Melton Mowbray, were charged with trespassing in search of conies, at the parish of Leesthorpe. — Absalom was fined £1, and costs 8s. ; and Divers was fined 10s., and 8s. costs
Friday 16 January 1863
Leicester Journal
Leicestershire
DISTRICT NEWS
Absolam and Divers Smith, gipsies, charged by P.C. Ball with encamping and making a fire by the highway, in the parish of Owston. Fined 2s, mid costs 5s. Darnel Cox, labourer, and Absolam and Divers Smith gipsies, were charged by Thomas Wild ...
Saturday 16 November 1861
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
MELTON MOWBRAY AND ITS NEIGHBOUBHOOD. Police Intelligence.—(Before H. C. Bingham, Esq.)— John Smith and Hawthorn Smith, gipsies, were charged by P.C. John Sills with sleeping in an out- house belonging to Mr. Wm. Chandler, farmer, Kirby Bellars
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Saturday 10 November 1860
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
Abraham Clayton, late of Leiceater. but now travelling with a gang of gipsies was charged with having on the 28th of March last unlawfully trespassed in search and pursuit of game
Saturday 15 October 1859
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
Levi Smith and Peter Smith, two travelling gypsies, Were bronght up by warrant, charging them, with having created a disturbsnoe on the 6th instsnt. at Wymeswold, whereby James Clayton. another gypsy, was seriously hurt and remained in a dangerouse state. From the evidence it appeared that the defendant belonged to a regular gypsy band, who had encamped near to Wymeswold. There had been some dispute amongst them in referenoe to some dogs, and even when in the village itself they oould not control the ill feeling which had sprung up between them. A party of six or eight of them went to the Bull's Head, and had some drink together, but speedily one of the parish con- stables was fetched to quell a disturbance amongst them. The constable (J. Colltngton) wished them to be quiet, and they promised to be so; but two houres afterwards he was called upon a second time to interfere. Again he urged them to be of good behaviour, and requested them to leave the village, which they promised to do, and the constsble saw them out of the town, but they speedily returned and continued the disturbance. They pulled their shirts off, and walked about the town streets without them. During the affray one of the men was wounded, and fainted away and required immediate medical assistance. The whole neighbourhood was in an uproar. Defendants were ordered for sureties to keep the peace for three months and themselves to be bound in £10 each. The other men concerned in the matter have not yet been apprehended.
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Saturday 06 February 1858
Leicester Guardian
Leicestershire
—Charles and Plato Smith, hawkers, Willoughby, Notts., were charged by Mr. Harvey, grocer, Leicester, with having, stolen a quantity of hay from ...
Saturday 20 March 1858
Leicestershire Mercury
Leicestershire
— Plato Smith, a gipsy, pleaded guilty to having encamped on the highway, and was fined ls. and costs
Saturday 10 October 1857
Leicester Guardian
Leicestershire
Woodbine Smith, 84, his wife, 85, with their grandaughter and her husband (gipsies) were brought up for sleeping in a hovel on the Lawton road. They were dismissed with a ...
Friday 11 January 1856
Leicester Journal
Leicestershire
Plato Smith, a gipsy, pleaded guilty to having encamped on the highway, and was fined ls. and costs
Saturday 11 August 1855
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
Lutterworth Petty Sessions, Augnst 6. James alias Benjamin Clayton and Tobias Clayton, grinders, were charged by Supt. Deakins with having encamped within fifty yards of the highway, between ...
Saturday 21 October 1854
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
Keythorpe Hall, last week, Mary Smith, a gipsy, was taken before Lord Berners by P.C. Hawksworth, and was sentenced to fourteen days' hard labour, for camping on the side of the highway in the parish of Markfield. — Plato Smith, a gipsy, was at the same time ...
Saturday 14 May 1853
Leicestershire Mercury
Leicestershire
Market Harborugh
P. C. Plant charged Saml. Smith, a gipsy, with making a fire near the highway Mowsley, on April 24. Defendant was found lying near the fire with his son Plato. (There is a warrant out against Plato as he did not appear to-day.) Defendant was ...
Saturday 23 November 1850
Leicestershire Mercury
Leicestershire
Plato Smith was charged with stealing a donkey, the property of William Read, of Markfield, on Sunday, the 10th instant. It seemed that the donkey was taken out of Read's stable by Phinial Smith, and he gave it up to Plato, and threatened ...
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Saturday 26 May 1849
Leicestershire Mercury
Leicestershire
Melton Mowbray
Hawthorn Smith and John East were charged by Roberl Benskin with camping in the parish of Burton Lazars, or Sunday morning last, and ...
Saturday 09 January 1847
Leicestershire Mercury
Leicestershire
LEICESTERSHIRE COUNTY SESSIONS
where found in a gipsies' camp, and in it Clayton and Bennett together in bed. On searching the camp they found half the flesh that was taken away, and the police apprehended Clayton. The next day the police searched Ann Bennett's ...
Friday 20 June 1845
Leicester Journal
Leicestershire
Ann Holland, Margaret Bennett, Eunice Hodgking, Emma Dinah Clayton, Elizabeth Clayton, and Louisa Clayton, gipsies, were charged on the information of Mr. Skeviiiglon, farmer, with encamping by tbe side of the highway ...
Saturday 18 October 1845
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
MICHAELMAS.COUNTY SESSIONS
:— On the 20th of July last, the appellant, who is a widower, encamped together with his relations Plato Smith and Violet (Plato's wife), Dives Smith and his wife, and a younger female of the same name, at Knossington, on the public road between Owston ...
Saturday 06 January 1844
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
BOROUGH EPIPHANY SESSIONS
Thomas Smith (17: neither read nor write) pleaded guilty to stealing a brass rule and other articles, the property of J . A. Bosworth : — three months' hard labour. David Smith (42 : neither read nor write) — a gipsy- ...
Saturday 16 December 1843
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
David Smith, a gipsy, wa. charged as follows: — John Worsdell, a miller and one of the Belgrave parish constables, deposed that on Friday evening the 8th inst., he was called to apprehend a person named Angelo Smith (also a gipsy), the nephew ...
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Saturday 20 May 1837
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
A Gipsy Named Smith Was charged with breaking a window at the Crown and Magpie beer_bouse, because the landlady refused to furnish him with spirits, for the very sufficient reason that she had none on the premises. A policeman joked to the violence of the prisoner's conduct, and the Mayor asked him if he had any ques- tions to put to the witness. Prisoner (surveying the policeman): Really I don't know — is this the man as took me? (Loud laughter.) I was so tossicated in liquor at the time, I don't recollect him ; and I'm sure i didn't know I was at the Crown and Magpie — l thought I was at the Waggon and Horses. (Laughter.) The Mayor : I have to congratulate you, Sir, on the great improvement in your appearauce since I first saw you— you were then as dirty and as wretched a looking object as could possibly be, but the gaol has altered you for the better. Prisoner: I was always likely to look lost and dirty, when the Police pulled me about so. The Mayor : Did the Police pull that long beard into existence which you wore when you first made your appearance ? (Laughter.) The prisoner admitted that the Police were not answer- able for his beard, and, in reply to the Bench, said, that he lived in the lanes with his wife in the warm weather, but was not a gipsy altogether : he had led a wandering life from his birth, like his father before him. The landlady stated that the gipsy's friends had re- paired the window, and the Magistrates then said that the prisoner had rendered himself liable to a fine of £5 but they would mitigate it to 5 s. and the costs, or, in default, seven — " I'll pay the fine for him, your honour," exclaimed a gruff voice from the body of the room. The Mayor: You're so prompt, that you make us almost regret we did not inflict the whole penalty— l don't doubt but you would have paid the £5 for your friend as cheerfully as the 5 s. (Laughter.)
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Saturday 17 September 1831
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
On Monday last, two the gipsy tribe, Matthew Smith, and Charlotte Eiliott, were married Loughborough, each them had been married before, and a great concourse of people were albe to witness the sight.
Saturday 14 April 1827
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
Loughborough, on the 6th int. Mary Ann, wife of Mr.T. Smith, higgler
Saturday 14 January 1826
Leicester Chronicle
Leicestershire
Tobias Clayton, gipsy, or travelling tinker, was found guilty of stealing a copper, the property of Mr. Jemeson, Basset House, Thurlaston, on
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these are just extracts in there full accounts you may find more information, signe onto the British newspaper archives web site they are a good bunch of like minded genealogy folk who will help you navigate their fine and great web site, the cost is minimal
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GEORGE OXBY SMITH "Gypsy Smith" 1868-1941.
He also used the alias Clayton.
George Oxby Smith was about in 1868 Stanton, Nr Bingham, Nottinghamshire, he was the son of John (Johnny) Smith bn 1833 Tur Langton, Leicestershire s/o Samuel Smith 1791-1864 and Reservoy (Reservoir) Smith 1796-1860, I think they were Uncle and Niece... George’s mother was Maria Smith bn Scalford, Leicestershire, d/o Levi Smith bn 1810 and Sophia Smith born 1811-
George's Father Johnny also had another partner at the same time (I believe the "wives" were also sisters) both wives were his 1st cousins.
1871 - He is encamped with his father, his father’s 2 "wives" and all their children in Snenton, Notts.
1881 - He is again encamped with his father, his father’s 2 "wives" and children in Pickwell, Leicestershire.
1891 - I can't find him, but by this time he has formed a partnership with Ellen Clayton bn about 1873 (not been able to find anything on her before being with George Smith – she possibly died 1912 Nottingham, but not sure at all.
1901 – I cannot find him.
1911 - He is now in Nottingham at 12 Nelson Square, Nelson St, Nottingham - A Hawker of drapery goods. He's with Ellen Clayton, they say on the census Married 20yrs 13 children born alive, 8 living, 5 had died. Children with them on this census are:
Angelina 15
Mente 14
Alfred 12
Esperella (Esmeralda) 7
John 4
Frank 2
All the children are said to be born in Leicester. I have the birth cert for Esmeralda as mentioned previously in this thread - she was born 25 Feb 1904 in a Van on Robert Street, Leicester.
Some of the children used the surname Clayton-Smith at times.
On 27 Jul 1912 George Smith married in Nottingham Registry Office Agnes White bn 5 Nov 1893 - 1982. He gives his age as 35 (he was really 44), gives his occupation as Horse Dealer and her age as 24 (she's really 19) - she was mentioned in a newspaper article in 1936 as being of stout build, with black hair and a sallow complexion. George's Fathers occupation is given a Clothes Dealer, and Agnes's father is Robert White (deceased) Scissor Grinder. Witnesses are A Bacon and E Smith.
1939 Register George and Agnes are living 4 Keswick Street, Snienton, Nottingham with Agnes and some of their children. Some of George’s other children are living in nearby houses.
Panished has previously helped with Newspaper Articles mentioning and about George Smith which has been really useful… Thanks.
I will also upload notes I have on George’s Full Siblings and then another upload of his ½ siblings…
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George Smith full siblings are
(Children of John (Johnny 2 wives) and Maria Smith).
Menty - Cinamenta Smith 1856-1949
Bn 24 Dec 1856 Eastwell, Leicestershire
Marr 12 Mar 1888 in Kegworth, Leicestershire.
Died 1949 Leicester, Leicestershire.
Amos and Menty had the following children:
Maria Towle 1889 - died before 1891
Emma Towle 1890-1891
John Towle 1891 2 Oct - 1939 reg he is a General Dealer living near his Mum in her Van.Charlotte Ann Towle 1893-1893
Eliza Towle 1894-1895
Alice Towle 1896-1898
Hannah (Toll) Towle 1896
Florence (Loodle) Towel 1899-1986
1939 Van, Thornbury Rd, Coalville, Leicester - her Grandson, John Smith, Rag gatherer is with her.
Isaiah Smith 1860-
Bn Nov 1860 Willoughby on the wolds - died 1868 Bingham, Nottinghamshire.
Died before 1871.
Levi Smith 1863-1864
Bn Jan 1863
Died 1863/4
Buried 2 Jan 1864 Croxton Kerrial, Leicestershire.
William Smith 1864-1947
Bn 12 Nov 1864 Willoughby on the wolds, Nottinghamshire.
Bp 14 Nov 1864 Willoughby on the Wolds.
Died 1947 Nottingham.
Partnered with Minnie Bacon 1870-1955
children:
Rose (Rosie) Smith bn 1892 (I have no proof of this, but a good hunch).
Emma Smith bn 1893 Hathern, Leicestershire.
William Smith bn 1896 Eastwood, Notts
Polly Smith 1900-1917 both Nottingham.
Charles Henry 1904-1943 Both Nottingham.
Rainy Smith 15 Feb 1907 - In a Van, Bosworth Rd, Nottingham - nothing on her after 1911 census.
Sidney 1909-1995 both Nottingham.
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Carolina (Selina) Smith
Bn 1866 Bingham, Notts
Bp 5 Aug 1866 St Helen's, Kneeton, Nottinghamshire.
Nothing else on her...
Mary Ann Smith
Bn 6 May 1870 Redhill, Arnold, Nottingham.
Bp 6 May 1870 St Mary's, Arnold, Nottingham.
Died 12 Apr 1949 from Cancer at 161 Ormaston Rd, Derby - her Granddaughter’s house.
She was said to be a small thin woman with long silver hair always tied back and always wore a white pinny. She was a local midwife and animal healer.
With an unknown partner (possibly a William Smith?)
She had:
Rose Ann Smith bn 1889 ? - died 1930 Derby.
Partnered George Slater 1860-1929 both Derby.
She had the following Children:
Silvery (Silvia Slater) Smith 1894-1980 both Derby
Mary Ann (Slater) Smith 1896-1983 both Derby
Violet (Slater) Smith 1899-1981 both Derby
Matilda (Tilda/Hilda Slater) Smith 1902-1995 both Derby
Samuel Smith
Bn Mar 1872 Arkwright St, Nottingham
Bp 10 Mar 1872 St Saviour’s, Nottingham
died before 1891
Hezekial (Kezia) Smith
1881 census he is down as Kezia (Female), and also on baptism Kesia? – Horse Groom Assistant in Derby.
1891 census as Hezekial (male)?
bp 17 Nov 1873 Holy Trinity, Kimberley, Nottinghamshire.
no trace after 1891
Florence (Flory/Florrie) Smith
Bn 1876 Goadby Marwood, Leicestershire.
Bp 24 Mar Goadby Marwood
Nothing on her after the 1881 census.
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Joseph Smith
Bn 4 Jan 1878 Breedon on the Hill, Leicestershire
Bp 19 Jan 1878 Breedon on the Hill
Died Apr qtr 1957 in Nottingham.
He's on the 1881 census and a Newspaper article in Feb 1893 in Evaston Derbyshire with his Mother Maria and Brother-in-law Amos Towle. The appears on the 1939 register in a caravan with his sister Charlotte Ann Smith (bn1881) in a Caravan, Holborn Place, Nottingham - living with his sister Charlotte Ann (Annie) both Amusement caterers. Encamped nearby is a group of Showmen including Sonny Brinkley and Lily Wesseldine (she is his niece) and Adolphus Brinkley and Rosie Smith (his niece d/o of his brother William Smith) who later went on to live in the house at 2 Pegg Terrace, Essex Street, Nottingham - Info from Panished made this connection for me - Thanks :)
Charlotte Ann (Annie) Smith
Bn 5 Apr 1881 Pickwell, Nottinghamshire
Bp 7 Apr 1881 Pickwell,
Died Sep qtr 1954 Basford, Notts.
I have her on the 1891 census, then nothing until the 1939 register where she is with her brother Joseph and Nieces encamped in Holborn Place, Nottingham.
I will post what I have on the children of John (Johnny 2 Wives) Smith have his 2nd "wife"
Carolina (Coralana/Selina) Smith bn 1832 Freeby, Leicestershire. As soon as I get it typed.
Please feel free to correct me - or add any other information you may have - and ask any questions...
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Hi Kizi
Thank you for helping me, i will read your posts many times to learn as much as i can, well done you have gathered much knowledge and let me and others here on RootsChat share your hard work, i am sure everyone is most gratefull and appreciate your efforts to understand the past Peoples, i am sure to that they would agree that you are indeed a fine upstanding person who wishers only to learn and help others, thank you again i will look into your great research i am sure there is more to come, i have been collecting records for you from Leicestershire, some may contain a name that triggers something in your mind, or maybe a location, or just a feeling that may lead you to look fuller into the said record story, when i find more i will post them here for you, if none are a big connection for you you will still learn though of the bigger wider picture, this is very important, thank you again i will write another time to
michaelx
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1871 - He is encamped with his father, his father’s 2 "wives" and all their children in Snenton, Notts.
of course as you know that is where i was born, that is where the Smiths was, and Letty, of the Famouse Holmes, they are to Gipsys in your long Family, wild is the truth, wild i was born, wild is my talk, only the wild would and will give me a moment, strange is the stranger, they keep to their own
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This is what I have found on Carolina Smith Smith, 2nd wife of John Smith
Carolina Smith
Bn Freeby, Leic.
Bp 29 Mar 1832 Waltham On The Wolds - Mother Sophia, Gipsy
Their children were:
George Oxby Smith’s ½ Siblings by his father’s 2nd “wife”
Caroline (Carolana/Selina) Smith
Bn 1832 Freeby, Leicestershire – I think she is the sister of the 1st “wife” Maria Smith
Bp
Ann Smith
Bn about 1855
Bp 7 Aug 1856 Croxton Kerrial, Leicestershire – this was a double baptism with her sister Harriet.
I have nothing else on her so assume she died young.
Harriet Smith
Bn about 1867 Croxton Kerrial, Leicestershire – Baptised the same day as her sister Ann above.
I have nothing else on her so assume she died you too.
Eliza Smith
Bn May 1857 Whissendine, Rutland.
Bp 30 May 1857 Whissendine, Rutland.
Marr 13 Jun 1880 Frederick Charles Blankley, Horse Dealer, at St George’s, Leicester, Leicestershire.
Died 15 Dec 1901 In a Van, William St, Loughborough, Leicestershire from Post-Partum Haemorrhage.
The female child also died.
1871 and 1881 census, she is with her parents and siblings as before.
1891 Eliza and Fred are using the surname Smith and are with Eliza’s parents John and Maria on the Morledge, Derby with a fair.
1901 census Eliza and Fred are in a Caravan in Shepshed.
Children:
John Blankley Bn 13 Mar 1881 Barrow-upon-Soar, Leicestershire. – D?
Frederick Blankley Bn 1883 Nottingham, Notts – D 1928 Loughborough, Leic.
George Blankley Bn 1885 Nottingham, Notts – D 1889 Loughborough, Leic.
Albert Blankley Bn 1886 Loughborough, Leic – D 1887 Loughborough, Leic
Flora Ann Blankley Bn 1888 Loughborough Leic – D 1888 Loughborough, Leic
Ernest Blankley Bn 1889 Syston, Leic – D 1939 Leicester, Leic
William Blankley Bn 30 Mar 1891 Loughborough, Leic – D 1891 Loughborough, Leic
Samuel Blankley Bn 1893 Market Harborough, Leic – D July 1893, Loughborough, Leic
Sidney Blankley Bn about 1895 Leicester, Leic – D 1968 Loughborough, Leic
Nathan Blankley Bn Feb 1896 – D 27 Aug 1896 Hinkley, Leic
Thomas Blankley Bn 7 Jun 1897 Litchfield, Staffs – D Jun 1897 Leicester, Leic
Female Child bn 15 Dec 1901 Loughborough, Leic – D 15 Dec 1901 Loughborough, Leic
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Beatrice Smith
Bn Jan 1860 Braunston, Leicestershire
Bp 8 Jan 1860 Croxton Kerrial, Leic
Marr 16 Jan 1888 in Leicester – James Wesseldine
D 2 Aug 1948 Nottingham, Notts.
1871 and 1881 census she is with her parents and family.
1939 Register she is living in Nottingham with her family and died there in 1948.
Children:
Lillie Wesseldine 1889-1957
John (Johnny) Wesseldine 1890-1971
Mary Ann Wesseldine 1892-
James Wesseldine 1894-1959
William Wesseldine 1894-1900
Thomas Albert Smith
Bn 1863 Plumbtree, Notts.
Bp 11 Jan 1863 Plumbtree, Notts.
D 1928 The old Workhouse Hospital, Nottingham.
Partnered Medlane Smith 1862-1907 (died from appendicitis) d/o Hawthorne Smith 1817-1883 & Cinamenta Smith 1819-1914
Children:
George Smith Bn 1889 Hyson Green, Notts.
Reservoir Smith Bn 5 Nov 1890 Castleton St, Nottingham -Died 1980 Doncaster, Yorkshire.
She married in 1908 George Edward Sidney Margetts 1886-1941
Mary Ann Smith Bn 4 Apr 1893 Hyson Green – Died 1973 Nottingham, Notts.
She married in 1915 Thomas Stanley 1892-1945
Beatrice Smith Bn 1899 Hyson Green, Notts.
Henry (Harry) Smith Bn 1901 Berridge Road, Hyson Green, Notts.
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Jemima Smith
Bn 9 Jan 1865 Blidworth, Notts.
BP 11 Jul 1865 St Andrew’s, Eakring, Notts
Died 12 Feb 1941 Belgrave, Leic.
Bur in Thurmaston, Leic.
In 1888 she met Pharoah Stafford (1867-1928) at the Belton Horse Fair, both families being at the fair.
In 1889 they Jumped the Broom – both families were against the union, they didn’t want them marrying out of their casts – they use to meet in secret at “The Gate Hangs Well” pub in Syston, Leic.
I have her on the 1871 & 1881 census with her parents.
1891 Jemima & Pharaoh are at 28 Victoria St, Belgrave, Leic.
1901 Jemima & Pharaoh are at Main St, South Thurmaston, Leic.
1911 Jemima & Pharaoh are at 41 Justice St, Leicester.
1939 Jemima is an impatient at the Leicester City Mental Asylum suffering from Senile Decay – times are different now thankfully.
I was also told that when Jemima got older, she lost her sight and went blind.
They had the following Children:
Lillie Stafford 1890-1892
Beatrice (Beta) Stafford 1891
John Robert Stafford 1892
Joseph (Joe) Stafford 1893-1960
Baby Stafford (born and died the same day) 1895-1895
Florence Stafford 1897
Edith Stafford 1898-1969
Pharaoh (Ernest Pharoah) Stafford 1900
Luther (Pharoah) Stafford 1902
Elizabeth Lilian Stafford 1904
Harold Stafford 1906-1979
Frederick Stafford 1909-1952
Marienna (Mireny) Smith
Bn 1873 Mapperley, Notts.
She is on the 1881 census with her parents and siblings
I have nothing on her after this.
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Frederick Smith
Bn 1868 Woodhouse Eaves, Leic
Bp 18 Mar 1868 Woodhouse, Leic.
Marr 10 Feb 1923 Leicester Reg Office, address Van, Back of Hardina St, Leicester. He said he was 45, he was 55 – His wife Nellie Elizabeth Horton (1903-1976) she was 23.
Died 1940 in the Workhouse Hospital, Swain St, Leicester from Chronic Myocardial degeneration and Chronic Nephritis aged 76.
1871 & 1881 Census he is with his parents and siblings.
I’ve not got him on the 1901 or 1911 census.
1939 register he is living in a house on Bendbow Rise, Leicester- Fred is a retired Hawker.
The had the following children:
Frederick Smith 1927
Harry Smith 1928
Lilian Smith 1933
Sheila E Smith 1934
John F Smith 1939
John (Jack) Smith
Bn 22 Dec 1872
Died 1946 Chatteris, Cambs.
On the 1881 census he is with his parents and siblings
Haven’t got him on the 1901.
1911 Census He’s with his partner Betsy Wesseldine (1872-1954) in a Caravan, Dingley Lane, Dingley, Northants.
1939 their in a Caravan, Williey Farm, Chatteries, Cambs.
They had the following children: (not 100% sure of the dates on these).
John Joseph Smith 1892-1979
Mary Ann Smith 1893/02-1975
Beatrice Smith 1896
Frederick Smith 1898
Eliza Smith 1899
Frank Smith 1901
William Smith 1906
Henry Smith 1907
Queenie Violet Smith 1909-1996
Samuel Smith 1909
Amos Smith 1913-1992
Bella Smith 1916
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Hi Kizi
How are you this day, i am very sorry i would have wrote sooner but i have been working over Burton way, i just cooked a great dinner of a stire fry, its got chicken and vegtables in, plus a great sourse, i put lots of peppers in to, plus a few stronbows but you just drink them, there great to, i do hope you are feeling well and these past days i have thought of you much, you have done very well, i know there is more to learn, but you must know that the past Peoples would and do think well of you, the past is a hard thing to learn of, i was always rajed so its not to bad for me, i could just slip in fine with the lot of them, it must be hard for others who just do not know what to do with the past, such a strange thing for them, i must just talk openly a bit more with you just about everyday things instead of just records, do you see how most just live in dates, its not there fault, i do hope your alright today, if you ever want to say anything you can, you done a rearly good job in reseaching, dont worry if you got anything a bit wrong, i think your very special, i,m not saying i love you yet, but you never know, dordi, i hope that gave you a smile, liston, i will write back but this is not the right time, i should respectfully just talk to you like this, i will reread all your fine writings over many times and to my death respect the Dead, you have respected them with your words, i dont supose you are used to talking to someone like me, i have my own ways and true its a kind of way that most dont understand, i dont care for such peoples thoughts and not a power in the worled ever existed that could hold me in any kind of fear, its very nice though several Old people from Old Familys have wrote to me down the yeares and talked straight talk, they tell me how they understand my talk, how about that then, theres more again but i just wanted to have a chat with you to show you i like you, we will talk another day of records, you tell me now if your ever feeling bad or the like and we will deal with that, well done Kizi all your Ansecsters are ver proud of you, keep going forever, one day someone will research you, then they will find me and You having a chat, then we are apart of all the Ancesters, how about that then, and they will say, we was all good with each other, and they will say how Leahcim is such a fine fellow and so nice to the great People as Yourself, and i bet they try and cook like me to, but not the strongbow, well maybe a few cans, it makes your spelling better, well it does when you had a few, merrm, talk another time, i am very gratefull for you to shareing your reseach, i will remember you for ever, and i will think of you tomorrow, i will write back about things but this is just now the time for a little chat, look after yourself and dont ever worry of nothing, sure thats a stupid thing todo, put your shoulders back and held your head high, you must always say no one taps this kid on the back, proud is the strongest word from the Old Romanys, thats the Oldest Word, in loverly bright colours, if anyone says different in your lifetime remember they donr rearly like anyone from the Proud Gipsies, truthfully they are strangers not only to you but to the truth, its sad but they are bad people, thats just the way life is, sure in this worled someone as to be bad, sure how would they be good if there was no bad, its rearly simple when you learn to understand words right, do you see them, they fall from the sky, i hear them, i understand them to, anyway thank you again, i am sure people in this day of youres and days after will remember you, well done Kizi, well done, from your pal michael
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Hi Kizi and Sky
Try and work this out, I will say more another day of these story's, looks like we have found another camp site, try and work out yourself what is going on, I know everything and the places in these story's, I have no doubt that some of these street or field names will appear in some official record, if you can link up any record with this great new evidence put it on here, I will talk through all these story's later, we have lots of Relations now in many ways starting to come to life, Hawthorne Street Smiths Field the Meadows next to Wilford as the Wilshers in numbers staying there over many yeares, George Smith was there to with many of his Relatives in fact thanks to Kizi this place as in surrounding dwelling is quite the place of many of Kizis many Relations, what a great thing it as been for us all to bring the truth back for the great Dead, all around this place like Cremorne Street there are people living in Vans and houses, some coming and going others seem to make this place a settled place maybe for a while, now by Kizi telling of the old record of the Smiths in Sneinton I have been looking and now have this evidence below to search ever more in the hope of helping the Dead, the Smiths are all around Sneinton in the past I will talk more later of story's, I am sure we can find more, I will explain the story's next in detail, try and work things out yourself first and see if you can form that bigger picture that I always talk of, these story's are alive to me for I know everything in them yet I never new of these story's before only the fact I know the buildings placers and locality, this as been a great find to me, this is the place of my birth, we all must help each other and do our best, we can and will find much more, we can do it, these story's below talk of the place that the Gipsy's would come to in Sneinton, hopfully in the future we may find records of their names and Family's, this is just the start, Wilford and the Meadows Carry's on in the way we shall find more, all these places link up, the Family's link up to, we shall bring them to life, we will raise them, we don't have to wake them for there not sleeping
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Friday 09 May 1828
Nottingham Review and General Advertiser for the Midland Counties
Nottinghamshire
Notice is hereby Given. THAT the ANNUAL MEETING of the SUBSCRIBERS to the ASSOCIATION of the RIGHT HONORABLE ..
... Holme Pierrepont Sampson John, Kneesall Sandy Wm. Holme Pierrepont Gimson Thomas, Clipstone Green Robert, Ratclifte Hornbuckle Isaac, Sneinton……..
Thursday 09 January 1851
Nottinghamshire Guardian
Nottinghamshire
COUNTY HALL, NOTTINGHAM. ~
... Isaac Hornbuckle, victualler, Sneinton, ss. John Watson, victualler, Sneinton, £1. Henry Newbold, shopkeeper, Sneinton, ss. James Green, blacksmith, Sneintou, 10s. John Gee, flour seller, Sneinton, 20s. Francis Burrows, beerhouse keeper...
Friday 07 January 1853
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
—AII Persons Indebted to the late Mr. ISAAC HORNBUCKLE, of Sneinton, Victualler, deceased, are requested to pay their respective Debts to Mr. THOMAS GREGORY MORLIT, Solicitor…….
Friday 15 April 1853
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
William Howitt. Carlton road, lace-manufacturer.— We William Burgess, Sneinton, merchant Matthew Sheppard, Old Sneinton. Farmer…………..
Friday 11 July 1856
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
which have recently been put up to the parish church, the following gentlemen were appointed as judges, viz. Mr..l. Hornbuckle, of Sneinton, well known amongst bellringers for his taste in bell music: Mr. H. Farmer: and Mr Richanbion, organist of St. Nicholas ...
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Friday 24 December 1869
Nottinghamshire Guardian
Nottinghamshire
... intestate, are hereby required to send in the particulars of their claims of demands .to ANN SHEP- PARD (wife of Matthew Sheppard, of Sneinton, in the County of Nottingham, Farmer, to whom Letters of Adminis- tration of the personal estate and effects of the ...
Friday 25 April 1873
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
NOTTINGHAM_COUNTY COURT
Edward Hornbuckle, a pig dealer was charged with cruelty to a horse on the 19th inst.—lnspector Dobie, of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to animals...
Saturday 06 December 1873
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
W. WHITEHEAD to sell, at their Brick Works, Carlton, near Nottingham, formerly known as Hornbuckles-yard, the whole of their PLANT, consisting of three useful HORSES, three Carts, Barrows, Wheeling Planks...
Saturday 19 December 1874
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
guests sat down to an excellent dinner, at the Lord Nelson, better known as “Hornbuckle’s,” Sneinton....
Monday 28 April 1879
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
TO-DAY'S POLICE NEWS
—Thome Hornbuckle charged with causing cruelty to a horse... .….and he considered that it would be a great cruelty to drive it along the streets. The horse was fit to work upon a farm. Hornbuckle said the horse was only slightly lame when it started. The case was dismissed upon payment of 16s……………
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Monday 27 September 1880
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
TO-DAY'S POLICE NEWS
Boys.—Alfred Smedley and John Hancock, two boys, were charged with damaging a quantity of turnips, the property of Mr. Sheppard, Sneinton Dale. Smedley was discharged, and the other defendant was ordered to pay 2s. 6d ………..
Wednesday 14 September 1881
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
TO-DAY'S POLICE NEWS
... Richardson, alias Miller, four boys, were charged on remand with having stolen a quantity of apples from the garden of Mr. Sheppard, of Sneinton Dale. Mr. Swinburne, School Board officer, said careful enquiries had been made into the lads' characters, and the ...
Friday 07 October 1881
Nottinghamshire Guardian
Nottinghamshire
containing an area of 287 square yards, and which Messuages are in the respective occupations of Jane Balderton, Henry Hornbuckle, and Wm. Seymour, back and front to Nelson-street aforesaid. LOT TV.— All that Plot of BUILDING LAND, abutting upon the last ...
Friday 21 July 1882
Nottinghamshire Guardian
Nottinghamshire
POLICE INTELLIGENCE
Damage. — William Daley and Charles Rawson, boys, were charged with damaging apple trees belonging to Samuel Sheppard, Nelson-street, Sneinton.. They were dis- charged on payment of the expenses…..
Friday 15 June 1883
Nottinghamshire Guardian
Nottinghamshire
— Mr. George Topham. mineral water manufacturer, Inde- pendent-street (honorary) ; Mr. H. Hornbuckle, Lord Nelson, Sneinton ; Mr. Broadhead, The Clarence ; Mr. W. Knight, Spread Eagle, Alfreton-road ; Mr. G. Fryer, Hope and Anchor ...
Friday 02 January 1885
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
THE FATAL ACCIDENT IN A BRICKYARD AT SNEINTON
... where the deceased was at work. A man named Sheppard was working with Campion at the time. One had to hack the clay out and the other throw down to witness. Shortly before two o'clock witness heard Sheppard shout Look out, Campion there is a face giving way...
Friday 03 April 1885
Nottinghamshire Guardian
Nottinghamshire
ALLEGED GAMBLING IN A PUBLIC HOUSE
At the Summons Court on Friday, before Mr. Ashwell and Mr. Fitshugh, Emmadina Hornbuckle, landlady of the Lord Nelson Inn, Thurgarton-street, Sneinton, was summoned for having permitted gambling on her premises.— P. c. Richardson stated that ...
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Saturday 26 July 1902
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
MAN Wanted, Milk, Plough, and make himself useful on a farm.—Apply to Mr. W. Sheppard, Thurgarton street, Sneinton ...
Tuesday 22 June 1909
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
SUDDEN DEATH OF A NOTTM. VICAR’S WIFE. The death occurred yesterday at the vicarage. Sneinton-dale, Mrs. Bertha Dodds, the wife of the Rev. M. A. Dodds, the vicar of St. Phillip's Church. Pennyfoot -street. On Sunday Mrs. Dodds had bilious attack
Wednesday 19 March 1919
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
NOTTS. MINERS' STRIKE
EFFECT ON THE ELECTRICITY Addressing the members the Trent Ward No. 2 Conservative Association at the Lord Nelson Inn, Thurgarton-street, Sneinton Hollows, Nottingham, last night, Mr. R. H. Swain referred to the effect which the miners' strike would have upon ...
Tuesday 22 February 1938
Nottingham Journal
Nottinghamshire
TRENT WARD LIBERALS An Enthusiastic Meeting at Sneinton Considerable enthusiasm was displayed at a well-attended meeting at the Trent Ward Liberal Association at the Lord Nelson INN, Thurgarton-street, Sneinton, last night……
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Thursday 21 February 1946
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
“POST” QUIZ PICTURES More Interesting Details With reference to the Post quiz pictures, THE OLD HORSE BUS. Mrs. Thompson, of 134, Egypt-road. New Basford, commenting on a recent quiz picture of the Sneinton horsebus, says: “I lived on Trent-road when it was called Thurgarton-street, and I well remember Mr. C. Manfull shop. Across the road was Mr. Lilly’s grocery and P. O., and a few doors below on Trent-road was Mr. Callendine. I also remember quite well St. Christopher’s Church being built. We were the first tenants on Trent-road on that side overlooking the Vicarage . We lived there 17 years, and my father, Mr. A. Barber, was one of the first members of the church at the bottom of the Sneinton-boulevard, and there is a stone in the wall to the memory of my dear mother. We were great friends of Mr. and Mrs. Gregg and also other prominent people of the Trent Ward, as my mother held the position of president and other offices for many years. By the way. the bus used to come up Sneinton-road and round the corner of Trent-road previous to going along the Hermitage, and many a time I have been on and expected to be thrown in the road, but it- was fun and worth it. I may say that Sneinton-dale was worth living down then but. alas, it has all gone now. I look forward to your quiz pictures, and we save them, and ray my husband and I have little guesses where they are,
so keep them up.”
Saturday 14 December 1946
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
This delightful rural spot was what is now a well-developed residential area of Nottingham. Where do you think the picture was taken and approximately when? ...
Monday 16 December 1946
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
Saturday’s “Post” Quiz Picture in Our quiant picture on Saturday was of a spot at Sneinton. The pathway in the field is now Lord Nelson-street, the field was then known as Hornbuckle Field, the residence is St. Philip’s Vicarage and the gateway is where Lord Nelson-street joins Sneinton-dale. And the picture was 50 years old………… .
Tuesday 17 December 1946
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
SNEINTON MEMORIES Revived By “Post” Quiz Picture The appended interesting letters have been forwarded as a result of Saturday’s Post quiz picture. They certainly have revived happy memories. The first is from Mrs. Hockley, 11, Loscoe-terrace, Church-drive, Nottingham: Your quiz picture on Saturday night was a photo of myself, sisters, and brother, taken about 54 or 55 years ago. it is in a field called Hornbuckle. those days, the vicarage at the back was at the end of Thurgarton-street. “The photo was taken one Saturday morning.” The second comes from Mr. H. Birch. Holmeleigh, Hoveringham: Your quiz picture on Saturday it was a treat to see. I had been through the old swing gate times and times before St. Philip's Vicarage was built, in fact it started building before the bricklayers arrived. How the poplar stands out in the old Gipsy field. The Gipsies used to come every year. The footpath leading to the White Houses and Thurgarton-street with the cottages and farm yards, was a pretty spot. All the farmers were named Shepherd. Sixty to 64 years ago Old Sneinton was very rural. It even had the hunt meet facing the Hollows Your picture was before the L.N.W.R. bridge was built over the Dale. “It is all a pleasant memory.”
Wednesday 18 June 1947
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottinghamshire
OLD SNEINTON
Nottingham: CHARMS OF OLD SNEINTON. Your latest quis brings back many happy recollections of youth The subject shown, the Sneinton pin fold, was immediately near to Bill Sheppard’s farm yard. I specify Bill as his brother Sam had ...
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Hello
I am new to genealogy and RootsChat so please bear with me.
Your posts are really interesting and packed with information. Absolom is one of my ancestors and this post gives a wonderful description of him. He must have had some wealth. I am wondering who actually wrote it and now I am interested in Beatta. Well, I am interested in it all, especially when I come across a gem like this. Thanks
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I have connections to an Israel Smith, who was in Nottingham in 1914 and was suspected of being my Mother's father, he had a brother in Nottingham and Israel was a traveller. Any help would be appreciated.
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hi my great grandmother was Esmerelda( espirella smith) one of the daughters to George oxby Smith and Ellen Clayton .I never got too meet the woman as she died before I was born but I've always felt a strong connection to her and her culture. unfortunately she left my grandmother when she was a baby with my grandad and no one knows where she went or why. I wondered if you had any information on her I would love too know.
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Hi Sky
I hope this post finds you well, i am sound, have you had enough of the researching yet, you sure went for it a couple of years back, well done i learned much from your hard work, have you come across this record its in the Nottinghamshire papers 1862 it is stated that Joseph Wiltshire died on the 25th at East Retford he was 73 years old, this would put him as born around the 1780s, have you this Joseph in your records, would he be another son to Edward, in another Nottinghamshire paper the same year they also talk of his funeral and that he belonged to a tribe of Gipsies, he was buried at Retford cemetery where the greatest of respect was manifested by the fraternity for the old man, I know we are related to Edwards son William so is this Joseph a brother of William, it looks like another branch early in the 1800s went of to the Newark and Grantham way up to early 1900s china dealers pot hawkers and such I will write up some of the information soon in the chance they may be of interest to you.
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Hello ,we have spoken a while back ,Joseph Wiltshire 1780 was my 3xs greatgrandad ,his daughter Lydia 1837 married Thomas Elliott ,their son Frederick married Emily Smith ,their daughter Jane aka Ginny, married my grandad Ben Smith ,their son Jack was my dad ..Emily Smith was the daughter of Sibberina and Tom Smith ...
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my great granny Ginnie / Jane drowned in the Wollaton Canal by the Radford bridge she was 50 yards from her wagon ,so stopping place was very near the area ?
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Hi Jane
Its good to hear from you, i hope you are well, yes you spoke to me before about your strong connections to the Wiltshire's in fact you have a fine Gipsy family through all sides, i thank you again for showing me all of your old photos i tried hour after hour to help you locate story's of your old peoples it was hard work but i was glad when you were happy. I wanted Sky to reply to me but i guess Sky's burned out. I think these Wiltshire's below may come out of Edward born around the 1760s, both sides the Newark line and the Yorkshire lot like the same names right up to the 1900s.
Jane in the Nottinghamshire press March 1924 is reported the death of Henry Wiltshire who is 71 years of age he passed away on the 2nd at Newark, under the title of ...........
"A well known Newarker's death”
Judging by his age he must have been born around the early 1850s they state he was the son of the late Joseph Wiltshire if this is the same family from the Joseph Wiltshire in my previous story then this Joe Wiltshire must be the son of the older Joseph who died in the 1860s and Henry the grandson of the Gipsy Joe Wiltshire born in the 1780s who could be the brother or son to the older Edward who married a Smith, the Joseph who was the father to Henry above had a fine trade in pottery-ware Henry and his sisters would go around the neighborhood selling pots on a dray drawn by a pony down through many decades you can see how they work the markets plus go knocking the doors, this is what makes me think that there is a chance that they may come out of the Gipsies, market traders tend to stick to markets, when you see the door to door work it shows more of a mindset.
Henry's father Joseph became well-to-do he had a fine house built in Newark known today as the old willow pattern in friary road it used to be known as priary road, its still there to this day with a plaque on the building above the archway to the front door you will see a very ornate stone decoration it represents the willow pattern of great renown in the pottery world.
Henry ended up in the Tenter building as some others did also, his fortune subsided at the deaths of his sisters who must have been the full force behind Henry at this time in his older life, we only can judge what we find there will be much more.
Henry in a lonely old state ended up seeking help from the poor law and grew weaker and weaker the relieving officer became a great friend at Henry funeral it is wrote his honesty and worth were recognized and esteemed by the wreaths on his coffin.
I am thinking all these Wiltshire's may link up, there is a chance that these people around Newark and Grantham Nottinghamshire could be from the same family line as the ones who went over to Yorkshire out of William the son of Edward, those that went over to Yorkshire were very wild like I can not help looking at all these Wiltshire's around Newark and thinking they were more of a gentle folk just pottering around selling earthenware, if they are linked up they must of just hit on a great living and evolved into the area without the need to have a larger traveling route, after the 1860s they evolve into a more settled type that's if they are all connected to the older traveling Wiltshire family's, where the alarm bells ring for me though is the fact in all the records i find around Newark there all Wiltshire's by name, the Wiltshire's over Yorkshire Nottingham Derbyshire are known as Wilsher Wilshaw Wilshire Wiltshaw. In the Derbyshire press in the month of October 1908 Thomas Wiltshire is charged and sent to prison for violently attacking the police while poaching it is told to the court how he used the alias of Wilsher and Wilshaw.
In the month of August 1860 in the Nottinghamshire press Thomas Willsher along with William Elliott was stated as being the principal Gipsies in an encampment of 30 Gipsies staying at the four lanes end Farnsfield where they were apprehended and later charged at Southwell. This is not far from Newark, this Thomas Willsher i have no doubt will link back to the Yorkshire line. It would be interesting to find out if the Wiltshire's around Newark are related to all the other Wiltshire's who are known by variations of their name and travel over several counties in a circuit.
This is a link below to a web site about Newark where these words are wrote about the Wiltshire's. They write that it was Henry who built the house, yet the story above tells of how it was Henry's father Joseph. I also came across an older record several years back stating this to, i will try and find it again, so you see how evan modern records could be found to be false, like i say i do not know for sure about the true history of these Wiltshires and if they truly link up to the older Edwards line, either way its a great story though.
http://www.newarkcivictrust.org.uk/public/documents/trails/victoriantrail.pdf
One of the Town's finest name-plaques, “The Old Willow Pattern, marks the house erected in 1885 for Henry Wiltshire, glass and china dealer."
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/The_Old_Willow_Pattern_-_geograph.org.uk_-_3116554.jpg
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I have Edward 1760 married Letitia ,
they had Joseph 1780 born in Harby married Lydia . Dorothy 1785, Elizabeth 1799 born Kirlington Nots . William 1805 Long Bennington Lincs married Lydia Jones ,.
Joseph 1780 , had Joseph 1813 Swinshead Lincs married Sarah ,they had Joseph 1835 ,Thomas 1838 , Ann 1841 Boston , Jane 1843 Grantham ,Frederick 1845 Newark ,Mary 1847 Newark ,Lydia 1849 Newark , Henry 1852 Newark ,Sarah 1853 Newark ,Elizabeth 1858 Newark
Joseph and Lydia had , Mary Ann 1816 Normanton ,, Thomas 1821 Saxilby ,
My line Lydia 1837 Notts married Thomas Elliott 1837 .my greats .
Edwrd and Letitia also had .William 1805 married Lydia Jones 1812 , they had Lotis 1829 , Adam 1830 , Eliza 1832 , Jane 1834 married Robert Winter , Sarah 1836 ,Harriet 1842 ,Joseph 1846
.Lydia 1848
My dad side , Smiths ,Elliott's ,Deadman, Hodkinson/Hodkins , Butlers , Colbourn, Boswell .
My mams side were from Yorkshire and the North , Wilsons , Burnsides ,Sowdens ,Adams , Rhodes Busfield , Patterson . Pot and china dealers and Hawkers going way back, I,m in touch with family both sides most still living the same life ,not travelling so much ,but living on sites and still in the same way of making a living .. Hope you can folllow all this ..Lol bit confusing when its written down ...so nice to hear from you ....Jane ...
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Hi Jane
I never came across the children to Edward, Sky told me about Edward being the father to William, Sue the Empress of genealogy told me about William then Joseph then William then Rebecca then Rebecca then me, I may of left someone out but that's about it, I only can have a main line through the Woman, truthfully beyond Williams wife my gr grandmother a Hartley on the census born Hull well i never found out who her mother was, I found a record of a stated William Wiltshire travelling in a caravan of bright colours, inscribed on the caravan was Hartley Leeds, the Wiltshires would often use the name Hartley as an alias when trying to evade the police. My mother would plait her grandma's hair and her grandmar would talk about Scotland, she would tell my mother all about making baskets she told of the place she was born in a place she called Musselburgh, my mother would not of known of this place she was still young herself how on the census it says born in Hull well I often wonder why, i have read records and it is obvious they have no fear of telling lies, my gr grandma's name was Maria on the census but her real name she used was Mariah my mothers mother Rebecca was born in some open outside ground in Sheffield out of a wagon, I think her father was born Woodsetts Derbyshire and his father Yorkshire then Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire all at camp sites, I do not know about Edward, he I was told married a Smith girl, Lettia, I do not know how much Gipsy they have in them, Williams lot mix with and live with many Gipsies down through the years by the look of all the records that I have came across they lived in tents and caravans then houses, my mother would always speak with Romany words to us when we was young mixed with the cant i do not think she new the difference it was only when i came on the internet that i realised the truth yet still we new a good amount of the Romany my mother died before the internet and me meeting Sue from the south and long before i took a d.n.a. test. She never new of any of the things i learned.
Strangely it was me who may have found the secret about her own mothers death, my mother would often talk about how her mother was attacked and kicked bad, my mother was young and through out her life would have the darkness come over in these times i would talk to her for a certain amount of time and then she would pull out of it, she would tell how it took her mother a year to die and that she would comfort her these were long lasting bad times for my mother she tried and tried to find out who was responsible relatives told her for years it was a jealous woman, i found out old old George Gipsy Smith or his son (same name) was charged with attacking her one year before she died, it may be one of them its the same address and the same name George Smith Keswick street Sneinton.
We would visit in later years his son Gipsy George Smith and they would talk about being Cousins, everyone dead now let them all rest in peace, now through looking and tracing through records and listening to others George Oxby Smith was born in a tent, Staunton-on-the-Wolds, Notts 13 March 1868. died on 5 Feb 1947 at 4 Keswick Street Sneinton, Nottingham, a stones throw from where my mother was born. He was Baptised 18 Mar 1868. His father is given as John Smith, (johnny two wife's) mother Maria - Gipsies.
I think any family who Carry's within them the breed of the Gipsies belong from the Gipsies through their breeding, it doesn't mean your a Romany or a Gipsy. I did my d.n.a and found a surprisingly large amount of Romany people from Europe who share d.n.a with me and they have not a drop of English or Irish Scotland or Wales in them, it must come from hundreds of years back, the amazing thing is i match to a Romany from the cold lands of Europe, I can see through their profile which countries there from, then I match mostly to the Romany Gipsy peoples from several countries right across Europe, Richard Edmund's the writer on the Gipsies of these lands once wrote that it is the Woman who hold the ancient d.n.a more that the males.
Out of all my d.n.a matches in this land the Herons hold the most Romany Gipsy in them, I have matches to born and bred Herons and one of them go over sixty % in what Ancestry has now classified as European Romany ancestry, some of the European Gipsy's that i match to go over 90% the Smiths in England and Young's in America still have large amounts in fact all the main names that are mentioned by the old Gipsy scholar's are still in this day carrying in them the old Romany genes. I suppose the old scholar's were about right in there assertion's. You do find people with large amounts of Romany d.n.a that hold names not thought of as being a Romany Gipsy name, this is where people have fallen into the trap of classifying names as having a true reference to a Gipsy identity, it is far more complicated than such a simplistic analysis.
I was about right to when i said that this line of the Wiltshire's settled heavy in Newark you only have to look at the births that you mentioned, I am no expert though, I like learning of their lives. I will write what I find soon, most of names in stories i find well they all seam to tie in to what you have wrote. Look after yourself Jane I hope you are well………..michael
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I also did DNA ,found many connections abroad from UK ,i live in Canada now moved here from UK ..The big surprise was I have Swedish and Norwegian quite a big % think it must be from mams side Yorkshire Travellers ...I found several close matches cousins on my mams side ...very interesting .Also have lots of matches in America Romany going back to the 1870s onwards when their ancestors emigrated from the UK ...They are on my dads Smith side ...Keep well ...Jane ..
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Hi Jane
In 1989 i found an article in the Grantham press telling the story of a team of horses crashing through the Town and scattering the pots of a Mr. Wiltshire into the road, i was thinking how strange and bizarre the story was evan a pig was trampled, I have been through Grantham many a time and never once did i ever see a horse never mind a pig walking down the road.
Stories may come to a person in the most unlikely of ways when you research like me, i literally read and read thousands of reports of the past, this way of researching gives you a personal insight into the very times of the peoples you are researching, I hope you and Sky benefit from the words i write, i see how you are both cousins of mine in d.n.a and you both have collected vast amounts on your own family's trees also the three of us link up in the paper trail back through Edward Wiltshire 1860s, to Sky through his son William and to you through his son Joseph, i also share d.n.a matches with others that you Jane also link to as in some of your other d.n.a matches also match to me.
Back to the story above. On reading the article i was thinking wow the Wiltshire's are still going around the Grantham way hawking pots about the place, then I looked up to the top of the newspaper and there it was stated........ "Stories that made the news about 110 years ago.”
Well i thought that one sure had me going there, like a pig was just trotting down the road in 1989, so now i went back in time to find this Mr. Wiltshire the hawker of pots. Eventually there in 1879 march the month on the 29th day i found him, he only gets a mention of a few words, yet its a goldmine of a story, i truly try and learn and understand about the life's of all our ancestors, when i read into them i feel i am walking amongst them.
The story of 1879 tells of three horses attached to an empty wagon belonging to Brackenburry of Londonthorpe, it is wrote they may have been spooked by the whistle from a train, near the BlueBell Inn they collided with pigs that have been bought by one Mr. Pock the local butcher, that's what you must of done years ago, you would just go to the local market and buy yourselves some pigs and walk them to your butchers shop chop them up in a back stable like room and then sell the meat in the room facing the roadway, well this Mr. Burden he was by trade a chimney sweep he attempted to save a pigs life by getting it away from danger, well guess what happened he got well flattened crushed they write, and now they state his business may be done for. Further along this mad dash the horses with wagon in tow now find themselves in Watergate where the “Wiltshire” man has his crockery van, they do not give him a first name they just write that its Wiltshire from Newark and that one of the wheels of his van was made contact with and his crockery was precipitated into the road, the horses did not stop it is stated until they arrived home in Londonthorpe, they say this was miraculous as there being many a tight bend on their journey home.
This to me is a fine research account and just like the census reports should be saved and made available for others to learn from as they read of the life's of the peoples they research for, in the story above great knowledge can be gained streets Towns public houses not to mention the name of the chimney sweep great evidence may be found within such discovery's, its a fine way to research and brings alive the cold names of old that just linger in dust filled files alone and abandoned tombstones they are nothing but tombstones.
I hope you liked this story and maybe we can find the name of this Wiltshire man from 1879, i bet he wasn't to pleased about the situation and how mad is it that the horses ran all the way home, that's what you see in those old cowboy films, it must be actually true, in real life not just in films they must do that when there trashed and they don't evan have the satellite navigation system, people these days forgot how to walk to a shop never mind knowing the road to Londonthorpe.
I will find some more stories I hope you and Sky save them evan just the bear record itself then along with just a name found in a death column you can say this was the life of the unknown Wiltshire the pot hawking man of Newark.
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thank you XX i,ve saved all your info ,i got out of the search for a couple of years ,but back into it now ..I have family stopping in Newark on sites and also in Leicester,I have contact with Wilsher ,also Are you on FB ? love the info you find ,puts faces and interest to names ..XX Jane
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Hi Jane
I do not go on F.B. i once years back set a page up but i forgot how i set it up, i am not a member of or chat on any web site, i only post on here now and then i am trying to find more information to help Sky in the research of the Wilshers Wiltshire family's, Sky did not ask me, i just took it on myself, Sky already told me that vast amounts of information i posted over the years was good and of use.
I have found lots that i hope you and Sky will like, it will take me a while to write everything up, i write everything up free hand it takes ages, i hope you enjoy reading what i have found and hope also you both collect the story's, that's if you both find them new. I am also going to help Kazi in new information i know about the Smiths that she was researching.
I used to work with a Newark man for a year or two, they have their own ways, his family to had the pot hawkers in the older times around Newark Grantham, he loved nothing better than walking the land with his dogs he was sound to.
take care michael