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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: cafetiere on Saturday 18 May 19 20:26 BST (UK)
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Hi
This person appears on a marriage certificate of Thomas Carr (49 and a painter) and Catherine Lambert (47) married in Liverpool in 1890. Catherine's father is listed as William Irvine and she's a widow.
I can find a few Joseph Septimus Irvin(e)s but no JS Carr. It's as though the surnames are mixed up.
Can anyone please help me work out what's going on?
Many thanks
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The only Thomas Carr the right age I can find pre marriage (and not after!) was born Ireland. May be Joseph never made it to England, hence not showing up?
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There's a good chance Joseph had six older siblings, indeed six older brothers.
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Welcome to Rootschat.
I haven't looked -- but have you found Catherine's previous marriage? If so who is given as her father on that?
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I’m very confused now! I couldn’t find the Lambert marriage, so it thought I would look for Thomas’s previous one.
1881. I think this is them
5 Walpole Street, West Derby
Thomas Carr 43. Painter b Preston
Cate Carr 43. Wife b Ditto
Mary Ellen Carr 14 b Rossendale
Elizabeth Ann Carr 5 b Liverpool
Clara Carr 4 b Liverpool
But in 1891 29 Penton (?) Street
Thomas Carr 52. Painter Preston
Kate Carr 50. born Ireland
Elizabeth Ann Carr 15. Liverpool
Clara Carr 14. Liverpool
Birth for Clara.
CARR, CLARA LAMBERT
GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 584
Birth for Elizabeth Ann
CARR, ELIZABETH ANN LAMBERT
GRO Reference: 1875 J Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 583
So any previous marriage for Catherine/Kate/Cate Irvine must be before 1875
But, Ancestry is suggesting a baptism for Elizabeth Ann
Elizabeth Ann Carr
Birth 31 May 1875
Baptism 12 Jul 1875
Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father Thomas Carr painter Lyan Street (from image)
Mother Emma
and for Clara
Clara Carr
Birth 14 Feb 1877
Baptism 19 Mar 1877
St Peter's, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father Thomas Carr. Occupation a Painter. Address Emlyn Street. (From image)
Mother Maria
Only Mary Ellen CARR I can see reg Haslingden (Which I think is the right district for Rossendale)
Is
CARR, MARY ELLEN BOND
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 08E Page 160
But I can’t see a Thomas CARR Bond marriage and that Mary Ellen would be 16 or 17 at the 1881, not 14. And I think she is more likely to be the daughter of Robert Carr & Margaret Bond and she is with them in the censuses so hasn’t moved in with an uncle.
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Thanks for all of these replies.
To answer what I can, no I can't find a Catherine Lambert marriage.
I'm interested in Mary Ellen Carr so I'm trying to find out who her father is. I know (or think I do!) from her marriage certificate that her father was Thomas and a painter. So, the various censuses showing this with a mother called C/Kate make sense. Mary Ellen was born in Bacup or Rossendale (depending) on who completed the census.
Interestingly, she appears to have converted to Catholicism in May 1896 and her mother is recorded as Catherine Lombard. Is this Lambert? Mary Ellen got married a few days after converting. Why did Catherine Lambert get married in 1890?
And, I'm also not sure if Cate/Kate is the same person as Catherine as I also noticed born in Ireland on one census.
I'm finding this hard to unravel so I'm very grateful for all of your replies.
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What about
IRVINE, MARY ELLEN LAMBERT
GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 08E Page 105
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In which case this birth might be connected
IRVING, JOSEPH SEPTIMUS LAMBERT
GRO Reference: 1863 J Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 397
Also
IRVINE, ANNIE LAMBERT
GRO Reference: 1870 M Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 08E Page 119
IRVINE, THOMAS LAMBERT
GRO Reference: 1871 D Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 08E Page 108
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This person appears on a marriage certificate of Thomas Carr (49 and a painter) and Catherine Lambert (47) married in Liverpool in 1890. Catherine's father is listed as William Irvine and she's a widow.
You mean he was a witness? Perhaps he just turned up for the wedding and went away again. Got on a boat after the reception.
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He’s down as Thomas’s father
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This person appears on a marriage certificate of Thomas Carr (49 and a painter) and Catherine Lambert (47) married in Liverpool in 1890. Catherine's father is listed as William Irvine and she's a widow.
You mean he was a witness? Perhaps he just turned up for the wedding and went away again. Got on a boat after the reception.
Hi
Thanks for looking. No, the document I'm looking at is the banns. Definitely says father. Both Thomas and JS Carr are listed as painters. I've tried to attach it but it's too big.
Thanks
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Interesting
Joseph Septimus Irvine
Age: 4
Birth Date: abt 1863
Burial Date: 30 Mar 1867
Burial Place: Newchurch in Rossendale, St Nicholas, Lancashire, England
Parish as it Appears: Newchurch
Father: Thomas Irvine
Mother: Catherine Irvine
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Yes, lots of JS Irvines. Which makes the Carr one so confusing. The families could have married in previous generations so the name appears in both, I suppose. But why no other references to JS Carr??
Thanks for looking. Helps to have someone to bounce possibilities around with.
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1871
Glen Bottom Newchurch, Haslingden
Thomas Irvine 33 b Preston painter
Kate Irvine 32 Wife b Liverpool
Mary E dau 4 dau b newchurch
I think there has been a name change here.and they’ve made up the marriage cert details.
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Maybe you should be looking for J.S Irvine with a son Thomas Irvine.
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What about
IRVINE, MARY ELLEN LAMBERT
GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in HASLINGDEN Volume 08E Page 105
Sub-district was Newchurch i.e. Newchurch-in-Rossendale to distinguish it from Newchurch-in-Pendle. This fits with her having Bacup as p.o.b. on a census. Newchurch isn't far from Stacksteads which is near Bacup. Newchurch Road goes through Stacksteads.
The 1864 Mary Ellen Carr, mmn Bond was registered in Accrington sub-district.
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He’s down as Thomas’s father
Thank-you. The word father wasn't in original post, hence my question.
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From LANOPC.
Abode of the family at burial of Joseph Septimus Irvine in 1867 was Tunstead Bottoms.
Baptism 1872 St James the Great, Waterfoot (C. of E.)
Thomas Teaby Irvine child of Thomas Irvine & Kate Marie
Born 5th Nov. 1871. Abode Waterfoot. Occupation painter.
Edit. Waterfoot is about half-a-mile south of Newchurch. Tunstead is about half-a-mile N.E. of Waterfoot and similar distance east from Newchurch. So they hadn't moved far in those years.
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Other birth registrations from Lancs. BMD.
1870 Irvine, Annie, mother's maiden name Lambert; Newchurch sub-district
1871 Irvine, Thomas, mother's maiden name Lambert; Newchurch sub-district
Edit. Seen since that these births have already been posted. Sub-districts are from Lancs. BMD.
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26 June 1875 - Preston Herald - Preston,
Might be pertinent?
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Burial 1871 St John the Evangelist, Blackpool Joseph Septimus Irvine, age 55; abode Blackpool.
2 baptisms in same place 1876 and 1880 Joseph Septimus Irvine. Father of one was a painter and the other a plumber.
Marriage 1849 All Hallows, Bispham
Joseph Irvine, age 35, widower; abode Blackpool; occupation painter. Father Thomas Irvine, spirit merchant. Bride Ann Bickerstaff.
I couldn't find a birth registration or baptism for Thomas Irvine around 1838.
However might this be a sister?
Baptism 10th Sept. 1841 St. John, Preston
Mary Irvine child of Joseph Irvine & Ann
Abode Edgar St.; Occupation painter.
I found a burial of an Ann Irvine in Preston 1840s but have mislaid note.
All info from LANOPC.
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Remaining in Blackpool, or rather nearby Poulton, Joseph Irvine & wife Ann Bickerstaff had 4 children including Robert Carr Irvine registered 1852 !!! Robert became either painter or plumber.
Other children were Agnes Jane 1850, John 1853 and Edward 1856.
Do I deserve a chocolate rabbit?
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Crossed with Maidenstone, but I’d written it so left it :)
1851. Indexed as Swine on Ancestry
Joseph Septimus Irvine 37. Painter. Lancaster
Ann Wife 36, Blackpool
Thomas Son 12 , Preston
Mary 9 Preston
Agnes 1 Blackpool
1861. It’s hard to make it Irvine, but rest of details match.
Joseph Brine 46 House painter. B Lancaster
Ann Brine 46. B Blackpool
Agness Brine 11. B Preston. (And rest of children)
John Brine 7.
George Brine 5
James Brine 3
Robert Brine 9
Births with Bickerstaff mother seem to match including
IRVINE, JOHN BICKERSTAFFE
GRO Reference: 1853 S Quarter in FYLDE Volume 08E Page 481
IRVINE, ROBERT CARR BICKERSTAFF
GRO Reference: 1852 M Quarter in FYLDE Volume 08E Page 488
I found a previous marriage of Joseph Septimus to Thomas’s mother also Ann, but I’ve lost it for the moment
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Marriages at Blackpool. St John's.
1873 Robert Carr Irvine, age 21, plumber; abode Waterfoot near Manchester*
Bride Margaret Eaves.
Groom's father Joseph Septimus Irvine, painter.
A daughter and another son of Joseph Septimus Irvine married a brother and sister called Watson.
1871 John Watson & Agnes Irvine
1873 John Irvine, age 19, painter married Mary Watson.
*Waterfoot is not near Manchester. >:( OK, it's nearer to Manchester than Blackpool.
Edit. NB. Baptism of Thomas Teabay Irvine at Waterfoot 1872 reply #17. So Robert was staying with or near his half-brother Thomas at the time of his marriage.
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1841
Preston
Joseph Irvine 25 Painter
Ann 25
Thos. 2
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Earlier marriage for Joseph Septimus?
Joseph Irving
Age: 24
Birth Year: abt 1813
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 29 Jul 1837
Parish: Preston, Lancashire, England
Spouse: Ann Rawsthorne
Spouse Age: 25
Father: Thos Irving
Spouse Father: Thos Rawsthorne
Bishop's Transcript
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Joseph Septimus Irvine
Birth Date: 12 Dec 1813
Baptism Date: 27 Mar 1814
Baptism Place: Lancaster, Lancashire, England
Father: Thomas Irvine
Mother: Mary
It’s really hard to read but I think occupation of Thomas is Spirit Merchant
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There's a birth registration for Thomas Irvine 1838 in Preston, mother's maiden name Rawsthorne.
Reply #22 So if somebody had looked for Joseph Septimus Swine they would have found him no bother. Just as well he doesn't know he's become swine in brine. ;D
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Joseph Septimus Irvine
Birth Date: 12 Dec 1813
Baptism Date: 27 Mar 1814
Baptism Place: Lancaster, Lancashire, England
Father: Thomas Irvine
Mother: Mary
It’s really hard to read but I think occupation of Thomas is Spirit Merchant
It was spirit merchant at his 2nd marriage to Ann Bickerstaff 1849 at Bispham.
Edit. Transcription on LANOPC has spirit merchant for Joseph's baptism and Sp...t dealer for Mary 1815. Thomas 1812 had parents Thomas & Mary but no occupation for father.
I don't see a marriage for parents.
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There's a birth registration for Thomas Irvine 1838 in Preston, mother's maiden name Rawsthorne.
Where do you see that? Only one I can see is
IRVINE, THOMAS -
GRO Reference: 1838 J Quarter in THE PRESTON UNION Volume 21 Page 604
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There's a birth registration for Thomas Irvine 1838 in Preston, mother's maiden name Rawsthorne.
Where do you see that? Only one I can see is
IRVINE, THOMAS -
GRO Reference: 1838 J Quarter in THE PRESTON UNION Volume 21 Page 604
Must have been Lancashire BMD as that's where I've been looking.
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Another Carr birth
IRVINE, JOHN CARR RAWSTRONE
GRO Reference: 1839 D Quarter in BLACKBURN Volume 21 Page 7
So, if a CARR birth to both wives, the name CARR must come from Joseph’s side. Yes.
Perhaps Mary wife of Thomas (mother of Joseph) was a CARR?
No, she was Mary TEBAY. Spinster of this parish Married Thomas Irvine, widower, Liquor Merchant 3 March 1811
Witnesses Agnes TEBAY and James TOPHAM. Everyone signs.
And from earlier
]Baptism 1872 St James the Great, Waterfoot (C. of E.)
Thomas Teaby Irvine child of Thomas Irvine & Kate Marie
Born 5th Nov. 1871. Abode Waterfoot. Occupation painter.
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You beat me to John Carr Irvine. He may have died young as there was John Irvine registered 1843 in Preston, mother's maiden name Rawsthorne. Also Mary 1841, Preston. Mary may be the baptism at St. John's I posted. Birth regs from Lancs. BMD.
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You beat me to John Carr Irvine. He may have died young as there was John Irvine registered 1843 in Preston, mother's maiden name Rawsthorne. Also Mary 1841, Preston. Mary may be the baptism at St. John's I posted. Birth regs from Lancs. BMD.
Yes I think so, as only Thomas with them in the 1841.
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So, if a CARR birth to both wives, the name CARR must come from Joseph’s side. Yes.
Perhaps Mary wife of Thomas (mother of Joseph) was a CARR?
I agree. Carr was obviously important.
I'm wondering if Joseph Irvine's parents were Scottish. Carr may have been Kerr. There's an Irvine Street in Preston with an Irvine family living in it at one time. I researched Scottish population in mid 19thC Preston in an attempt to find origin of my Scottish ancestor. Some Preston Scots spent time in Cumberland before moving to Lancaster or Preston.
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Yes, I had been thinking about KERR
Thomas Irvine seems to have been in Lancaster at least by 1793, when he I think, married Jenny WARBRICK
He was a Cooper then but that seems a logical step towards Liquor Merchant to me
A probable brother (relative anyway) John who is Bondsman on marriage license
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3 burials in register St John, Preston.
1840 John Carr Irvine aged 1. Abode Spring Gardens.
29th March 1844 John Irvine, infant, Abode Spring Gardens.
14th April 1844 Ann Irvine age 30. Abode Spring Gardens.
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Yes, I had been thinking about KERR
Thomas Irvine seems to have been in Lancaster at least by 1793, when he I think, married Jenny WARBRICK
He was a Cooper then but that seems a logical step towards Liquor Merchant to me
A probable brother (relative anyway) John who is Bondsman on marriage license
If it was the same Thomas, what happened to Jenny and when and where did Thomas marry Mary?
Edit. I now see that Thomas & Mary marriage is in reply #31.
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Looks as though Mary TEBAY’s parents were George TEBAY and Ellen MASON. All Lancaster. So no Carr/Kerr there.
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If it was the same Thomas, what happened to Jenny and when and where did Thomas marry Mary?
I think Jenny is possibly burial as Jane wife of Thomas Feb 1894. Not sure.
Marriage to Mary Lancaster 3 March 1811
BUT. Hold on
Just found this
Mary Irvine
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 27 Jun 1819
Parish: Lancaster, Lancashire, England
View this parish
Spouse: John Carr
Mary is a widow.
So...
Mary TEBAY married Thomas IRVINE 1811
Thomas died bef 1819
Mary remarried to John CARR who was thus stepfather to Joseph Septimus Irvine 😀😀😀
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Decided to look at any Mary Carr in Lancaster in appropriate period. What about this marriage at Lancaster?
April 1793 John Casson, grocer & Mary Carr. Witnesses Repentance somebody and Jenny Warbrick.
Now there was more than 1 Jenny Warbrick in Lancaster. However … a woman called Mary Casson was a witness to Thomas Irvine's marriage later that year. Joseph Irvine was the other witness.
Grocer and spirit dealer are occupations which went together. Irvine and Casson might have been in partnership, or just members of a business association or friends. I can't see a burial for John Casson or for Jenny/Jane/Jennet Irvine. There were several Casson children of John & Mary baptised at Lancaster and a couple were buried there.
Lancashire Archives site isn't working for me so I can't look for marriage bond or will for John Cassson.
There might be adverts or notices in Lancashire newspapers.
I've just seen your latest post but I'll post this anyway.
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Perhaps John CARR is that Mary Carr/Casson’s brother.
Jane Irvine wife of Thomas age 28 buried st Mary Lancaster 28 Feb 1794
Only trouble is there is a baptism for James Irvine son of Thomas and Jenny in April 1794. If Jenny died in childbirth wouldn’t they have done an earlier baptism?
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This will might be Useful?
John Carr 1849 Preston Amounderness Lancashire
Or this one
John Carr 1844 Garstang Amounderness Lancashire Timing fits with naming of child John Carr.
Possibly
Mary Carr 1833 Preston Amounderness Lancashire
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Perhaps John CARR is that Mary Carr/Casson’s brother.
Jane Irvine wife of Thomas age 28 buried st Mary Lancaster 28 Feb 1794
Only trouble is there is a baptism for James Irvine son of Thomas and Jenny in April 1794. If Jenny died in childbirth wouldn’t they have done an earlier baptism?
Perhaps he was a big , healthy baby. Or that was his reception into church and he'd been baptised privately earlier. 1-2 months was a popular age for baptisms in my village at the time. (Curate recorded birthdates.) Poor Jenny didn't last long.
They might all have been related to each other in various ways. Sally Irvine married a Casson who was a shipwright in 1789. Lancaster was a busy port. Thomas Irvine may have supplied rum to ships. I noticed a Swarbrick marriage to one of those surnames. (Swarbrick/Warbrick variants)
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Plenty there for Cafetiere to be looking at.
But...what about Catherine/Cate/Kate Marie Lambert. Who was she and why did she say her father was William Irvine? Illegitimate and made him up?
Why didn’t they marry much earlier?
Was one or other previously married?
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But...what about Catherine/Cate/Kate Marie Lambert. Who was she and why did she say her father was William Irvine? Illegitimate and made him up?
Why didn’t they marry much earlier?
Was one or other previously married
William Irvine and Carr might have been clerical errors. What was source?
I suspect a prior marriage.
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Back to Thomas Irvine for a moment
Here’s his death
19 August 1815 - Westmorland Advertiser and Kendal Chronicle - Kendal, Westmorland, England
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William Irvine and Carr might have been clerical errors. What was source?
I suspect a prior marriage.
Image of marriage cert is on Ancestry.
Marriage is clearly as OP posted. With father of Catherine Lambert as William Irvine a butcher and father of Thomas Carr Joseph Septimus Carr, painter
Catherine a widow and Thomas bachelor. Amazingly they give different addresses.
17 Great Crosshall Street and 14 Hunter Street
(Marriage is St Nicholas, Liverpool)
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A few Catherine Lambert marriages to consider.
1860 West Derby: Patrick Quirk - Catherine Lamberd
1862 West Derby : Thomas Hardman - Catherine Lambert
1858 Liverpool : Francis Johnson - Catherine Lambert
1857 Manchester : John Marsh - Catherine Lambert
(Lancashire BMD)
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A few Catherine Lambert marriages to consider.
1860 West Derby: Patrick Quirk - Catherine Lamberd
1862 West Derby : Thomas Hardman - Catherine Lambert
Can’t find images for those first two at moment
1858 Liverpool : Francis Johnson - Catherine Lambert
Father William Lambert a Butcher . Francis Martin Johnson, a Mariner, Father is Francis Johnson a shipwright, both of full age. address Wiliam or maybe Milham Street for both
1857 Manchester : John Marsh - Catherine Lambert
Father John Lambert, a labourer
(Lancashire BMD)
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1858 Liverpool : Francis Johnson - Catherine Lambert
Father William Lambert a Butcher
If that was her then 2 out of 3 pieces of information about her father at 1890 marriage were correct!
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1858 Liverpool : Francis Johnson - Catherine Lambert
Father William Lambert a Butcher
If that was her then 2 out of 3 pieces of information about her father at 1890 marriage were correct!
Seems reasonable to me.
Quite a good cover up.
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Who were witnesses at wedding of Thomas Carr/Irvine to Catherine Lambert?
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A few Thomas Irvine/Irving weddings in case he was hiding another Mrs.
Liverpool: 1855 Mary White; 1856 Mary Kennedy or Tobin; 1857 Margaret Coulter; 1861 Elizabeth Carrall.
Toxteth: 1863 Elizabeth Irving (Toxteth is Liverpool)
Blackburn: 1858 Sarah Bridge
Manchester: 1856 Rebecca Butterfield or Oxford; 1860 Alice Whitmore
Salford: 1854 Mary McNamara
1860 Elizabeth Ann Forster (Didn't note where).
All from Lancs. BMD.
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Who were witnesses at wedding of Thomas Carr/Irvine to Catherine Lambert?
Agnes Evans & Sarah Wilson
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Oh, wow, just woke up to see all of this. Thank you both so much!
Now to unpick it all. ;D
Are you suggesting that Thomas Carr was possibly Thomas Carr Irvine and that his father was JS Irvine not Carr? Plus, his mother looks to be Ann Rawsthorne? So he's dropped the Irvine for some reason.
And Catherine Lambert/Lombard might have been her maiden name and she made up borrowed Irvine as a cover for something?
It all sounds a bit shifty - why the late marriage, why is Kate from Ireland in one census and why the "false" names on the banns? If she was married to someone else but living with Thomas, the Lambert butcher father doesn't fit.
Thanks for all of your help on this, it's been fascinating to read.
So, to look for Mary Ellen's ancestors I should look for Irvines and Lamberts really?
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Oh, wow, just woke up to see all of this. Thank you both so much!
Now to unpick it all. ;D
Are you suggesting that Thomas Carr was possibly Thomas Carr Irvine and that his father was JS Irvine not Carr? Plus, his mother looks to be Ann Rawsthorne? So he's dropped the Irvine for some reason.
And Catherine Lambert/Lombard might have been her maiden name and she made up borrowed Irvine as a cover for something?
It all sounds a bit shifty - why the late marriage, why is Kate from Ireland in one census and why the "false" names on the banns? If she was married to someone else but living with Thomas, the Lambert butcher father doesn't fit.
Thanks for all of your help on this, it's been fascinating to read.
So, to look for Mary Ellen's ancestors I should look for Irvines and Lamberts really?
Getting married late and fudging the details seems to have been far more common than you might think. You've only got to follow a few threads on Rootschat to see.
I've got a couple in my own tree who lived together for 50 years before marrying! And she, used all sorts of alternative names along the way - but all somehow connected so possible to track.
In general it seems to be that a first marriage broke down and they moved on to another relationship but couldn't marry as first spouse still living. Alternative was to commit bigamy and you could get a hard labour term for that!
I think once you actually look at all the documents, luckily its Lancashire so there are a lot online :-), you will hopefully come to the same conclusions as we have.
Yes to Lambert and Irvine, although I have to say the Lamberts are proving difficult. We could do with a few more census appearance for Catherine. I am hoping the one Ireland mention is a redherring/error on the part of the enumerator/Misheard place name..... Ireland can be difficult.
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The rest of my ancestors are from Ireland so I was relieved to find an English line thinking it'd be more straightforward ;D
I keep forgetting about the Lancashire records. I'd (foolishly) discounted non-Catholic records as hadn't considered they'd converted. Big lesson learned.
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Now I've just put Carr into the Lancashire records with no other search criteria, there are loads with it as a middle name. Will need some mapping now to work them all out.
I'm assuming Carr is a middle name and not a term seen on records for somethings else?
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I’ve found them on the 1861
49 Haigh Street, Everton household is
Daniel WILSON, labourer 44 b Liverpool
His wife Margaret 50 b Ireland
Kate JOHNSON married 25 niece dressmaker, b Ireland .....sorry. margaret must be the Aunt?
AND lodging there is Thomas IRVINE 23 a painter.
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Marriage.?
Can’t find image yet
Daniel Wilson
Marriage Date: 24 Aug 1845
Marriage Place: Saint Nicholas,Liverpool,Lancashire,England
Spouse: Margaret Lambert
Image
Daniel WILSON, labourer. Highfield street, father Thomas WILSON, Weaver
Margaret LAMBERT, widow , Highfield Street, Father Lawrence LAMBERT a butcher.
Witnesses John BOND and Mary something like HENSLEY. All mark except John Bond
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Sorry, just remembered a key bit of information. On Mary Ellen's baptismal certificate, her dob is 27 November 1870. The baptism is dated 2 May 1896 which is why I'd scrolled past it earlier as presumed the age didn't fit. So, earlier censuses with Mary E as 4 in 1871 may refer to a previous child?
And, whilst looking for Thomas Carrs born in 1871, I found a Thomas Joseph Carr marrying in 1898 and giving his address as Hunter Street, Liverpool. Hunter St was the road Catherine Lambert gave on her marriage banns. But he lists his father as John Carr. :-\
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Where is the baptism image for Mary Ellen?
And do you have a copy of her marriage?
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Here's the baptismal record from Ancestry. And she married 11 days later.
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Sorry, just remembered a key bit of information. On Mary Ellen's baptismal certificate, her dob is 27 November 1870. The baptism is dated 2 May 1896 which is why I'd scrolled past it earlier as presumed the age didn't fit. So, earlier censuses with Mary E as 4 in 1871 may refer to a previous child?
These are the children of Thomas & Catherine whom we have found with mother's maiden surname Lambert.
Joseph Septimus Irving registered 1863 J Quarter West Derby & Toxteth Park
Mary Ellen Irvine registered 1866 D Quarter Haslingden (Newchurch sub-district)
Annie Irvine registered 1870 M Quarter (Newchurch sub-district)
Thomas Teaby Irvine born 5th November 1871 according to his baptism at Waterfoot church.
Elizabeth Ann Carr born 31st May 1875 according to baptism in Liverpool. NB. Mother's name is Emma on baptism.
Clara Carr born 14th Feb 1877 according to baptism. NB Mother's name on baptism record Maria.
Annie may have been born in last quarter of 1869 or first quarter of 1870. Not much time for another birth between her and Thomas. The family seem to be settled in Newchurch area in those years.
Deaths:
Joseph Septimus Irvine age 3 Newchurch 1867 (Burial is on LANOPC)
Annie Irvine age 0 Newchurch 1870 GRO Ref: 1870 M Quarter Haslingden volume 08E page 98
So Annie, born either last quarter of 1869 or 1st quarter of 1870, died when a baby.
Thomas Teeby Irvine was born too late in 1871 to be on 1871 census and was not with the family on 1881 census so may have died. If he died in Rossendale his death would have been registered as Irvine but if his death was after the family returned to Liverpool it may have been registered as Irvine or Carr. (I'm having problems with GRO site.)
The surviving daughters on census:
1871 Mary E. Irvine age 4, born Newchurch
1881 Mary Ellen Carr age 14 born Rossendale; Elizabeth Ann Carr age 5, born Liverpool; Clara Carr age 4, born Liverpool
1891 Elizabeth Ann Carr age 15, born Liverpool; Clara Carr age 14, born Liverpool. (Mary Ellen not present)
Mary Ellen's ages and birthplace(s) were consistent on 1871 & 1881 censuses with the birth registration of Mary Ellen Irvine in Newchurch sub-district of Haslingden registration district in December Quarter of 1866. The only thing different is that the surname has changed to Carr on 1881 census.
The birthplace of Bacup for Mary Ellen (on another record?) is also consistent with Newchurch and Rossendale. Newchurch, Waterfoot and Bacup are all in the ancient Forest of Rossendale and in the present Borough of Rossendale. Newchurch and Bacup are only about 2 miles apart as the crow flies and Tunstead, abode of Thomas Irvine's household in a church register, is between the 2 places. Newchurch Old Road, not far from the Tunstead area and now part of the Irwell Valley Way, leads to Bacup.
Mary Ellen may have been "economical" with her age if she was a spinster nearly 30. What age was she at marriage? How old was her husband? More than one of my female ancestors subtracted a couple of years when she married - husband being a bit younger. One was born around same time as your Mary Ellen. Mine had a younger sister with the same first name so it was easy to confuse them.
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I think this might be Thomas ‘ s death
Deaths Jun 1874 (>99%)
CARR Thomas Tivy 2 W. Derby 8b 380
Buried Rice Lane, Walton, Liverpool 12 May 1874
Abode 21 Ct, Jubilee Street
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My previous post has appeared as all quote. ???
Mary Ellen might have been born on 27th November but not on 1870 if she was who we think she was.
If she was born 1870 she should have been on 1871 census as a baby. There have been errors with age of a baby recorded or transcribed in years instead of months but I think it was uncommon. She would have been on 1881 census as 10 years old.
1896 might have been the first time that Mary Ellen had been asked for her age and date of birth.
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Thanks again. Yes, she may well have fudged her age a bit.
I think I've found her on the 1891 census as a servant for a William Ramsden. She's listed as being born in Bacup on that one.
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You could edit your post to get it out of quote, but I realised and read it OKl thank you for that summary.
I think you are right, Mary Ellen is older than her husband so has knocked some years off and then she stuck with it.
1891 when she is a servant her age is consistent with the birth we think is her. And gives place as Bacup, knocks a couple of years off for baptism and marriage and it’s official!
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Thank you. I'm not sure I'd have made sense of Mary Ellen's info without all of your help.
Quick checks of Catherine Lambert suggest one with her parents lodging with a John and Jane Bond in Liverpool. They may have come from Ireland which may explain Ireland being on Kate Carr's census entry once? Maybe.
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Burial 1871 St John the Evangelist, Blackpool Joseph Septimus Irvine, age 55; abode Blackpool.
He died in Whitworth & Brandwood sub-district of Rochdale registration district.
GRO Ref: 1871 D Quarter in Rochdale; Volume 08E page 87.
There are 2 entries for the death on Lancashire BMD with different reference numbers. Will one be an amended entry?
Brandwood is a bit of the town of Stacksteads on the opposite side of Newchurch Road from the Tunstead area and just along the road from Waterfoot. The town of Whitworth is S.E. across the moors.
It seems to me that he was visiting or staying with his son, Thomas or the son who was the plumber (Robert?), who was in Waterfoot prior to his marriage. It would be interesting to see who registered his death and why there are 2 records at Preston.
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They may have come from Ireland which may explain Ireland being on Kate Carr's census entry once? Maybe.
Twice. See reply #59
Also, remember John Bond a witness at the LAMBERT WILSON marriage.
There’s another (1866 I think, Ancestry is not loading for me at the moment) of another Daniel WILSON to a Margaret Lambert widow, whose father is John Bond
And Sarah Wilson was a witness for the Carr lambert wedding so she might be connected somewhere
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Thank you. I'm not sure I'd have made sense of Mary Ellen's info without all of your help.
Quick checks of Catherine Lambert suggest one with her parents lodging with a John and Jane Bond in Liverpool. They may have come from Ireland which may explain Ireland being on Kate Carr's census entry once? Maybe.
That's possible. If she was consistent about p.o.b. on every other census. She might even have adopted an Irish accent to fit in. It has been known. ;)
We always have to remember that we are only looking at census enumerator's books apart from 1911 census. The household member completing the return may have made a mistake or the census enumerator might have copied it down wrong.
I came across several households in Preston whose members were all born in Ireland according to census enumerator's book. Many of them were actually born in Lancashire. There were Irish households in the first few houses in the street and the census clerk had written "do" for ditto under "Ireland" and continued writing "do" for several pages even when it was obvious that birthplaces were in Lancashire. I checked that there were no places called Bacup, Rawtenstall or Oswaldtwistle etc. in Ireland before reporting the error. ;D
My Scottish ancestors in Preston are down as Irish on 1841 census but Scottish in 1851.
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Thank you. I'm not sure I'd have made sense of Mary Ellen's info without all of your help.
Quick checks of Catherine Lambert suggest one with her parents lodging with a John and Jane Bond in Liverpool. They may have come from Ireland which may explain Ireland being on Kate Carr's census entry once? Maybe.
But this Catherine has Father James Lambert a cooper. I don’t think she can be yours.
Another possibility is Cathe Lambert 15 b Ireland servant for the Chandler family.
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They may have come from Ireland which may explain Ireland being on Kate Carr's census entry once? Maybe.
Twice. See reply #59
1861 reply #59 and 1891 reply #4. 1881 has a ditto for Preston, birthplace of Thomas. That may be clerical error. Cath's p.o.b. was Liverpool on 1871 census, wasn't it?
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Cath's p.o.b. was Liverpool on 1871 census, wasn't it?
Yes
Thomas Irvine Preston
Kate Liverpool
Mary E Newchurch
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I think Catherine dau of James and Mary Lambert Baptism 1839 Liverpool married Edward Jacob BERGMAN 1873
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They may have come from Ireland which may explain Ireland being on Kate Carr's census entry once? Maybe.
Twice. See reply #59
Also, remember John Bond a witness at the LAMBERT WILSON marriage.
There’s another (1866 I think, Ancestry is not loading for me at the moment) of another Daniel WILSON to a Margaret Lambert widow, whose father is John Bond
And Sarah Wilson was a witness for the Carr lambert wedding so she might be connected somewhere
That's what made me think the Bond census data may be relevant. But, yes, the father doesn't match then.
I was a census enumerator for 1991 census. I had to try to explain to a bloke in a tiny 1-bed flat that it wasn't likely he had 14 people there that night - had he just listed all his family? I think he shut the door on my face. That'll be fun for his descendants.
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I was a census enumerator for 1991 census. I had to try to explain to a bloke in a tiny 1-bed flat that it wasn't likely he had 14 people there that night - had he just listed all his family? I think he shut the door on my face. That'll be fun for his descendants.
Perhaps he'd held a party and everyone stayed upright. ;D
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Morning,
In reply #59. Who is Mr Johnson... or am I missing something?!
Bitzar.
P.S. Am really enjoying this thread.
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I've done a very quick read of the threads and have wondered if you have looked at the surname of Corr. I have Corr & Carr in my tree from Ireland & it is a common transcription error.
I have also found a birth for Thomas Corr whose details are - birth 22 December 1839 Preston. Parents look to be Late Margaret who lived in Duke Street.
I'll come back to this thread as I just wanted to put this suggestion in. I'm curious to see the outcome.
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Morning,
In reply #59. Who is Mr Johnson... or am I missing something?!
Bitzar.
P.S. Am really enjoying this thread.
Mr Johnson is Catherine Lambert’s first husband Francis Martin Johnson
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I've done a very quick read of the threads and have wondered if you have looked at the surname of Corr. I have Corr & Carr in my tree from Ireland & it is a common transcription error.
I have also found a birth for Thomas Corr whose details are - birth 22 December 1839 Preston. Parents look to be Late Margaret who lived in Duke Street.
I'll come back to this thread as I just wanted to put this suggestion in. I'm curious to see the outcome.
Did he have a father named Joseph Septimus ? Or was father Unknown?
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There's a good chance Joseph had six older siblings, indeed six older brothers.
All named Joseph? Joseph, Joseph Secundus, Joseph Tertius ……
;D
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#82 I took it as Cate Margaret as I thought late was a strange first name for a man. If that is the case there was no father obviously listed
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#82 I took it as Cate Margaret as I thought late was a strange first name for a man. If that is the case there was no father obviously listed
Where did you see it?
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on ancestry.
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I've also found another possibility for you to look at - Joseph Hamilton Irving Born Liverpool 1840 had a father Joseph.
There is also a possibility his Thomas' wife was married twice before.
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I found something interesting:
Robert Ogston married Mary Irvine whose father was Joseph Septimus Irvine in 1875 Blackpool, Lancashire.
It has to be the Joseph you are looking for.
Link on family search: https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?facetType=ON&query=%2Bsurname%3Airvine%7E%20%2Bmarriage_year%3A1855-1890%7E%20%2Bresidence_place%3A%22Preston%2C%20uk%22%7E%20%2Bresidence_year%3A1885-1895%7E&marriage_year0=1800&count=20&gender=F
I've also found a family tree on Ancestry - Coulthard Family Tree by Sue Charlesworth 66 will tell you what is going on.
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This is a footnote about Thomas Irvine of Lancaster, father of Joseph Septimus Irvine. He was a spirit merchant.
Marriage 6th May 1793 St. Mary, Lancaster
William Charnley, liquor merchant, abode Manchester
Esther Bradley, spinster, Lancaster
Witnesses Thomas Irvine, Jane Warbrick
Married by licence.
Thomas Irvine and Jenny Warbrick married later that summer.
Thomas Charnley and Benjamin Satterthwaite were partners as wine merchants in Lancaster. Premises in Church St. in 1791 and Market St 1792. (Sun Fire Office insurance records, London Metropolitan Archives, listed in Discovery catalogue of National Archives)
Edit. We think this Thomas Irvine is the same Thomas Irvine who married Mary Tebay after Jane died. Thomas Irvine and Mary (Tebay) were parents of Joseph Septimus Irvine. The info in this post is just to show possible connections between some wine & spirit merchants in Lancaster.
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#89 I'm not sure you have the right person. I may not either but there appears to be two lots of information - worth checking out both.
The tree I mentioned Joseph Septimus Irivine was born in 1813. Parents Thomas Irvine & Mary Tebay.
He was married more than once. There is also another child with Carr in their name Robert Carr Irvine born 1852.
Let us know how you go.
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I found something interesting:
Robert Ogston married Mary Irvine whose father was Joseph Septimus Irvine in 1875 Blackpool, Lancashire.
It has to be the Joseph you are looking for.
Link on family search: https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?facetType=ON&query=%2Bsurname%3Airvine%7E%20%2Bmarriage_year%3A1855-1890%7E%20%2Bresidence_place%3A%22Preston%2C%20uk%22%7E%20%2Bresidence_year%3A1885-1895%7E&marriage_year0=1800&count=20&gender=F
I've also found a family tree on Ancestry - Coulthard Family Tree by Sue Charlesworth 66 will tell you what is going on.
Thanks for Mary. We found a Mary born 1841 in Preston but didn't know what happened to her.
Mary 1841 was from Joseph's 1st marriage and was a full sister to Thomas. Their mother died in Preston when they were young. Joseph married again near Blackpool a few years later and had another family. Several children of 2nd family married in Blackpool in 1870s. One son, Robert, was staying in Waterfoot at the time of his marriage, which is where Thomas & Catherine & family lived.
See replies #20-27, 31, 32, 39, and 70 for more info on Joseph Septimus Irvine 1813-1871 and his 2 wives and several children.
Joseph S. Irvine lived in Blackpool area during his 2nd marriage but died near Waterfoot, presumably visiting one of his sons. Another son was a painter, like Joseph and Thomas.
I don't have Ancestry sub. I've been using free sources. Lucky it's Lancashire.
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Did you want me to send you any further details from the tree?
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#89 I'm not sure you have the right person. I may not either but there appears to be two lots of information - worth checking out both.
The tree I mentioned Joseph Septimus Irivine was born in 1813. Parents Thomas Irvine & Mary Tebay.
He was married more than once. There is also another child with Carr in their name Robert Carr Irvine born 1852.
Let us know how you go.
How we got Thomas Irvine and Mary Tebay and Thomas Irvine and Jenny Warbrick see replies
26, 28, 31, 35, 37, 39, 41 and 46.
John Carr Irvine replies 31, 36.
Robert Carr Irvine replies 21-23
Those 2 were from 2 mothers so Carr came from Joseph's side.
See also reply 39.
Sudden death of Thomas Irvine when Joseph was very young and remarriage of widowed Mary Irvine to John Carr may be why the name Carr was important to Joseph.
Can you see any flaws?
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I'm confident that we've identified the Joseph Septimus Carr, father of Thomas Carr as Joseph Septimus Irvine, born 1813, son of Thomas & Mary Irvine (Tebay) and baptised in Lancaster.
Thomas Irvine died when Joseph was 2. His mother married John Carr and this seems to have been the origin of the middle name Carr which Joseph gave to some of his sons, and the name which his eldest son, Thomas adopted as his surname when he moved to Liverpool with Catherine.
Joseph married twice, both wives called Ann. He lived in Preston with 1st wife and in Blackpool area with 2nd wife (but he waited until Ann #1 died before he married Ann #2).
Thomas Irvine was born in Preston, son of Joseph's 1st marriage. 3 of Joseph's sons were named John.
The death of Joseph Septimus Irvine was registered in a sub-district adjacent to where his son, Thomas Irvine lived and far from Joseph's home in Blackpool.
The reason for Thomas changing his name to Carr seems to have been connected with Catherine already having a husband, Francis Johnson when she previously lived in Liverpool.
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Can anyone offer an explanation as to why there are 2 entries for death registration (1871) of Joseph Septimus Irvine in Lancashire BMD death index. Does it mean that there are 2 death certificates at Preston or that the original certificate there has been amended? Is it anything to do with him being buried in a different registration district from the one where he died? ???
See reply #70.
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Once again, thanks for all the information and suggestions of where to look.
I couldn't find a birth certificate for Mary Ellen Carr on the PRO site when I first looked but she's probably registered as Irvine/e.
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Reply #6
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Thanks. Meant to add that I'd now found it after remembering the name change but you've beat me to it. ;D
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I've been struggling to find a Catherine Lambert with a father called William - which seems odd to me as they seem to be fairly common names. The Lancashire records only show a father called James.
Ancestry only finds 11 results for that combination and they are based in Hull, Gatesehead, London or Bristol which don't seem obvious links to me. But there is one from Wexford. This shows a
Catherine Lambert
Birth
12 Feb 1841
Baptism
13 Feb 1841 Wexford, Ireland
Father William Lambert and mother Alice Furlong.
Unfortunately, the Irish genealogy records don't go back as far as 1841 so I'll have to see if there are links to my Catherine via sibling's marriages.
I'm sure I read on here recently about people from Wexford coming to work in Garston for a particular trade. But I can't remember the details at the moment and, of course, people from Wexford may move to Liverpool anyway.
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I've been struggling to find a Catherine Lambert with a father called William - which seems odd to me as they seem to be fairly common names. The Lancashire records only show a father called James.
Ancestry only finds 11 results for that combination and they are based in Hull, Gatesehead, London or Bristol which don't seem obvious links to me. But there is one from Wexford. This shows a
Catherine Lambert
Birth
12 Feb 1841
Baptism
13 Feb 1841 Wexford, Ireland
Father William Lambert and mother Alice Furlong.
Unfortunately, the Irish genealogy records don't go back as far as 1841 so I'll have to see if there are links to my Catherine via sibling's marriages.
I'm sure I read on here recently about people from Wexford coming to work in Garston for a particular trade. But I can't remember the details at the moment and, of course, people from Wexford may move to Liverpool anyway.
Catherine's birth year is uncertain. Year of birth as estimated from her stated age on documents vary from 1836 to 1843. Thomas's estimated birth year was more consistent, varying by only a year or so.
Catherine's ages & estimated year of birth:
1858 marriage to Francis Johnson. Catherine's age? (Reply #48)
1861 census age 25 = estimated year of birth 1836. She was with her aunt & uncle, Margaret & Daniel Wilson. Lodger was future 2nd husband Thomas Irvine, aged 23. So Catherine was 2 years older than Thomas at this point. (Reply #59)
1871 census. Catherine was aged 32 = estimated y.o.b. 1839. Catherine has aged only 7 years in a decade. (Reply #13)
1881 census. Cath. aged 43 = estimated y.o.b. 1838 (Reply #4)
1890 marriage to Thomas. Catherine's age was stated as 47 = estimated y.o.b. 1843. (Slowest aging rate of only 4 years in 9 ! Thomas had overtaken her in age.)
1891 census. Cath. aged 50 = estimated y.o.b. 1841. Catherine has again aged only 7 years since previous census but her marriage has added at least 2 years to her age. (Reply #4)
Imo her ages on early records are likely to have been nearer the truth. So possibly born in 2nd half of 1830s. If born in Ireland, chances are it was in a parish with no baptism records for those years.
Any clues as to Catherine's religion?
Was Clara definitely Catherine's last child?
Liverpool Irish would have been from all over.
If you need help in tracing Catherine's Irish origins I suggest you start a fresh thread on the Ireland board. Put a summary of her life and connections in Liverpool and Newchurch/Waterfoot (her aunt Margaret (Lambert) Wilson, the 2 marriages, pretending to be married to Thomas, switching and swapping surnames, fibbing about father's name etc.). Include a link to this thread so that people can see what's already been found. Add a link here to a new thread about Catherine. You may need time to sort out information on this thread before launching into another.
Should you need to find your old threads in the future, click on your profile.
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Francis Johnson - Catherine Lambert marriage was at St. Peter, Liverpool 1858.
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Thanks very much for summarising it all like that for me - very helpful. And thanks for the tip to start a new thread when I'm ready to launch into looking for Catherine (I'd forgotten about the lodging census entry).
Re Catherine's religion, no, no clues. And nothing has come up suggesting a child beyond Clara but I hadn't considered that yet as I was looking under the wrong names originally.
I've got lots of questions about Ireland - I've got a brick wall or 4 there. ;D
Thanks again.
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I’ve not seen any births after Clara.
Earliest dob if age 1861 census is correct is 1836 this would make her 41 at birth of Clara. If no others after her, then the earlier dob seems more likely I.m.o.
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And, whilst looking for Thomas Carrs born in 1871, I found a Thomas Joseph Carr marrying in 1898 and giving his address as Hunter Street, Liverpool. Hunter St was the road Catherine Lambert gave on her marriage banns. But he lists his father as John Carr. :-\
Perhaps this family?
Baptism 2nd Feb. 1864 St. Peter, Liverpool
Thomas George Carr, child of John Carr & Harriet.
Born 30th Dec. 1863. Abode Hunter St. Father's occupation Professor of dancing.
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Perhaps this family?
Baptism 2nd Feb. 1864 St. Peter, Liverpool
Thomas George Carr, child of John Carr & Harriet.
Born 30th Dec. 1863. Abode Hunter St. Father's occupation Professor of dancing.
[/quote]
Thank you. Professor of dancing - wow! I'm going to assume it might be a name coincidence of 2 x Thomas Carrs in the same street. Looked on Google and it's all demolished now. But I'll definitely take a look this weekend.
Still trying to unpick the Lamberts and the Bonds but I won't post until I've got a clear question.
For completeness:
I think Daniel Wilson married Margaret Lambert (as Catherine/Kate) is niece on 1861 census so Margaret is the aunt - there's a marriage in 1845.
Then DW married Mary Bond in 1866. Widow and called Mary Lambert on banns. Witness John Bond (Boud on record).
Mary Bond married James Lambert in 1833 then DW.
I'm wondering if James and William were brothers. Margaret's father (Catherine's grandfather) is Lawrence (a butcher) and born in Ireland. And just looking at the banns again, a James Lambert has witnessed two other marriages - but not all on same day i.e. he wasn't just hanging around after her got married.
I can't see where I've written it but I think James and Mary were also born in Ireland (oh, 1851 census). So, I assume William Lambert also Irish. And those dates are too far back to look at Irish records online.
Thanks again, it's been really interesting.
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Found these births and deaths on the Lancashire site. I wonder if Kate Maria and Catherine is Catherine Lambert?
Death
Jan 1867 • Haslingden, Lancashire
Burial: 30 Mar 1867 St Nicholas, Newchurch in Rossendale, Lancashire, England Joseph Septimus Irvine - Son of Thomas Irvine & Catherine Age: 4 years Abode: Tunstead Bottoms Buried by: Jno. G. Haworth Register: Burials 1860 - 1871,
Baptism: 14 Jan 1872 St James the Great, Waterfoot, Lancashire, England Thomas Teaby Irvine - [Child] of Thomas Irvine & Kate Maria Born: 5 Nov 1871 Abode: Waterfoot Occupation: Painter Baptised by: Robt. Smith
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Yes
See replies 11 & 13
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Ah, sorry. Should have known you'd have spotted that already.
Took a trip (literally, as I fell over in the graveyard!) to Newchurch and Waterfoot this weekend but didn't spot any Irvine graves. Difficult to look around though - overgrown (and slippy!)
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There is a lot of information in that thread. Easy to miss.
It seems to be the rule that graveyards have a slippery patch you slip over in. Either that or the very grave you went to see is covered in blackberry and you didn’t have your gardening gloves and secateurs in the boot.
(Secateurs autocorrected to sedatives, perhaps more useful!)
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Did you get your feet wet in Waterfoot? ;)
Death of Joseph Septimus Carr , senior, object of your original search, in 1871 was reported to the coroner. It's listed in coroners' expense accounts in Lancashire Archives. If it was an accidental death it may have been reported in a local newspaper. I was puzzled because the district was Spotland on the coroner's record, whereas the death was registered in Whitworth & Brandwood sub-district on Lancashire BMD index. Turns out Spotland included Whitworth and Brandwood townships. Brandwood township was the other side of the River Irwell from Waterfoot.
His occupation on marriage register of one of his daughters has been transcribed on LANOPC as 'Grainer and sun writer'. ;D I meant to submit a correction.
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I saw that. Grainer as in a person who can paint surfaces to look like something else. Eg walnut paint effect on top of an old bit of pine. Even marble effects. There are whole kits of grainers tools you can buy. It’s a hobby of my husband. At one point we had a “marble” tile floor with “oak” strips between the “tiles” while we saved up for carpet.
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Did you get your feet wet in Waterfoot? ;)
Death of Joseph Septimus Carr , senior, object of your original search, in 1871 was reported to the coroner. It's listed in coroners' expense accounts in Lancashire Archives. If it was an accidental death it may have been reported in a local newspaper. I was puzzled because the district was Spotland on the coroner's record, whereas the death was registered in Whitworth & Brandwood sub-district on Lancashire BMD index. Turns out Spotland included Whitworth and Brandwood townships. Brandwood township was the other side of the River Irwell from Waterfoot.
His occupation on marriage register of one of his daughters has been transcribed on LANOPC as 'Grainer and sun writer'. ;D I meant to submit a correction.
Maybe he tripped over in a Newchurch graveyard as well? ;)
Interesting about grainer as well - I'd have read that and maybe assumed grain merchant? I presume 'sun writer' is sign writer?
This is all great stuff again, thanks so much both of you.
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I see you have found part of my family tree which is a maze. Re: Thomas Irvine/Carr he used both
names. His father my 2nd gt grandfather Joseph Septimus Irvine was married twice. Thomas is one of 4 children to Ann Rowstron his first wife, they had Thomas, Mary Ellen, Elizabeth Ann and Clara. Thomas is married to
Catherine Maria or Kate maybe nee Lambert! she died in July 1896 in West Derby. Joseph Septimus Irvine was born in Lancaster to Thomas Irvine and Mary Tebay but Mary married twice and her
second husband was John Carr and this is why Carr is in all their names as the children took this
name. Joseph Septimus Irvine died 29.11.1871 aged 55. An accident on slippy street I think a
broken leg and complications. He was brought back from Bacup to be buried in Blackpool. Anyway hope these few details help a little, do get in touch if I can help anymore.
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I see you have found part of my family tree which is a maze. Re: Thomas Irvine/Carr he used both
names. His father my 2nd gt grandfather Joseph Septimus Irvine was married twice. Thomas is one of 4 children to Ann Rowstron his first wife, they had Thomas, Mary Ellen, Elizabeth Ann and Clara. Thomas is married to
Catherine Maria or Kate maybe nee Lambert! she died in July 1896 in West Derby. Joseph Septimus Irvine was born in Lancaster to Thomas Irvine and Mary Tebay but Mary married twice and her
second husband was John Carr and this is why Carr is in all their names as the children took this
name. Joseph Septimus Irvine died 29.11.1871 aged 55. An accident on slippy street I think a
broken leg and complications. He was brought back from Bacup to be buried in Blackpool. Anyway hope these few details help a little, do get in touch if I can help anymore.
Hi, that's great. Yes, we must be related :D
Do you know why they changed their name? This thread has been fascinating for me and I've had great help with untangling this. I can only guess that as Kate/Catherine Lambert was married before she was still married at it was rather scandalous? I can't find much on her 1st husband to know when he died - I'm guessing he didn't until just before Kate 2nd marriage.
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Joseph Septimus Irvine died 29.11.1871 aged 55. An accident on slippy street I think a
broken leg and complications. He was brought back from Bacup to be buried in Blackpool.
So cafetiere's guess about Joseph's accident was almost correct.
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Joseph Septimus Irvine died 29.11.1871 aged 55. An accident on slippy street I think a
broken leg and complications. He was brought back from Bacup to be buried in Blackpool.
So cafetiere's guess about Joseph's accident was almost correct.
Yes! ;D ;D
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I'm afraid I don't know why they changed their name so much. It happened
quite a lot with the many marriages. Kate is a brick wall as to where she came from,
we think Ireland and as you say they lived out of wedlock for so long. Thomas
lost his mother aged about 6 years so I think the grandmother must have had something
to do with it. John Carr came from Liverpool and that is why they ended up there.
He had two full siblings and whole lot of half siblings.
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Thanks wonoona