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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Cramond Brig on Saturday 11 May 19 19:00 BST (UK)
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We believe that this First Nations Canadian serving in Brock's Rangers (114th Haldimand Rifles) died at Merryflats, possibly in 1916, and that his burial was paid for by Walter Freer, who managed Glasgow Corporation halls and was later made a chief by Chief Clear Sky. We have been unable to find any details about where he is buried, but of course he may not have been buried using his First Nations name.
Any help would be appreciated.
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Some background information here:
https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle-2-15039/chief-clear-sky-and-his-men-made-ultimate-sacrifice-at-the-somme-1-4286126
Imber
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I am very curious as to where the name came from.
Flier is not a name I recognize associated with the Six Nations. That being said here is the list WWI and II http://www.vcn.bc.ca/~jeffrey1/tribute.htm
And there is a site from the old Department of Indian Affairs which has individual records.
Don
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Some background information here:
https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle-2-15039/chief-clear-sky-and-his-men-made-ultimate-sacrifice-at-the-somme-1-4286126
Imber
Yes, thank you. That was written by my wife, now Professor Yvonne McEwen.
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I am very curious as to where the name came from.
Flier is not a name I recognize associated with the Six Nations. That being said here is the list WWI and II http://www.vcn.bc.ca/~jeffrey1/tribute.htm
And there is a site from the old Department of Indian Affairs which has individual records.
Don
Hi Don, thanks for that. It could have been "Flyer" or even "Guy". It came from an extract from a book written by Walter Freer, who managed the Glasgow Corporation halls and theatres. We believe he paid for the burial in Glasgow. Freer was eventually made a Chief by Chief Clear Sky.
Alistair
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Flyer became the name of the 114 when it was absorbed in 1916.
I think you your best shot at finding who you seek will be at the Mitchell in Glasgow. I would imagine there would have been a blurb about the burial in the Herald but perhaps not.
Did your wife ever read "The People of the Longhouse" highly recommend it if she hasn't. And one last thing about the photo. The one wearing an Onondaga headdress is the one on the right not the one shaking hands who is wearing a western style headdress. Here's an example http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/newhouse_seth_15E.html
Don
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Just wondering if the request has anything to do with this link which I found on google as I thought Merryflats were houses rather than a hospital as the post didn't mention hospital hence my search;
https://wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/hospitals/hospital.php?pid=13120
Annie
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Merryflats was the Poorhouse for Govan Combination Parish and, if he died there, there is probably a record of his claim for poor relief. If you can send me the full details I will check at the City Archives tomorrow, as I plan to do some other research in the poor reliefs claims there anyway.
You will see a picture of the original Merryflats in this page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_General_Hospital
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Merryflats was the Poorhouse for Govan Combination Parish and, if he died there, there is probably a record of his claim for poor relief. If you can send me the full details I will check at the City Archives tomorrow, as I plan to do some other research in the poor reliefs claims there anyway.
You will see a picture of the original Merryflats in this page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_General_Hospital
We believe he died in Merryflats Military Hospital in 1916.
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Just wondering if the request has anything to do with this link which I found on google as I thought Merryflats were houses rather than a hospital as the post didn't mention hospital hence my search;
https://wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/hospitals/hospital.php?pid=13120
Annie
We believe he died in Merryflats Military Hospital in 1916.
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As Lodger has said Merryflats was originally part of the Poorhouse complex of Govan Parish - the hospital and asylum sections are reputed to have had space for 700 patients.
Merryflats Military Hospital came into being in 1914 when part of the Merryflats complex was requisitioned by the Government for use as a 250 bed military hospital.
https://canmore.org.uk/site/44226/glasgow-1345-govan-road-southern-general-hospital
Modified : In this case I'm not sure that the archives will be with the Poor Law Records but possibly with the Archives of the Southern General Hospital which are also available at the Mitchell but accessed through the NHS Archivist.
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As Lodger has said Merryflats was originally part of the Poorhouse complex of Govan Parish - the hospital and asylum sections are reputed to have had space for 700 patients.
Merryflats Military Hospital came into being in 1914 when part of the Merryflats complex was requisitioned by the Government for use as a 250 bed military hospital.
https://canmore.org.uk/site/44226/glasgow-1345-govan-road-southern-general-hospital
In this case I'm not sure that the archives will be with the Mitchell.
Thanks for responding. You are correct - we have tried the Mitchell without success.
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Flyer became the name of the 114 when it was absorbed in 1916.
I think you your best shot at finding who you seek will be at the Mitchell in Glasgow. I would imagine there would have been a blurb about the burial in the Herald but perhaps not.
Did your wife ever read "The People of the Longhouse" highly recommend it if she hasn't. And one last thing about the photo. The one wearing an Onondaga headdress is the one on the right not the one shaking hands who is wearing a western style headdress. Here's an example http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/newhouse_seth_15E.html
Don
Thanks again. We have tried the Mitchell and the newspaper archives without success. He may not have been buried under his First Nations name. Yvonne has read the book.
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My apologies - I was modifying my post when we cross posted.
Were you able to contact the NHS Archivist - who although based at the Mitchell is not part of their staff and is only available part of the time. (The last time I dealt with them it was Wednesday only).
https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/search/archives/d602a15c-d77f-35f8-8cb6-73b3320936c7
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My apologies - I was modifying my post when we cross posted.
Were you able to contact the NHS Archivist - who although based at the Mitchell is not part of their staff and is only available part of the time. (The last time I dealt with them it was Wednesday only).
https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/search/archives/d602a15c-d77f-35f8-8cb6-73b3320936c7
Thanks for that very useful information.
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Hiya,
I know you are looking for burial information, but can I ask - have you found the death registration?
Or would a Canadian national / First Nation Canadian soldier's death not be registered in Scotland even though he died there?
Looby :)
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Hiya,
I know you are looking for burial information, but can I ask - have you found the death registration?
Or would a Canadian national / First Nation Canadian soldier's death not be registered in Scotland even though he died there?
Looby :)
Probably not as he was a serving soldier. Had a look, though, using the name we have, but nothing. Thanks for the idea.
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Hiya,
I know you are looking for burial information, but can I ask - have you found the death registration?
Or would a Canadian national / First Nation Canadian soldier's death not be registered in Scotland even though he died there?
Looby :)
Probably not as he was a serving soldier. Had a look, though, using the name we have, but nothing. Thanks for the idea.
So a serving soldier's death would be registered in his own country - and you obviously haven't found that in Canadian records :(
Looby
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Hiya,
I know you are looking for burial information, but can I ask - have you found the death registration?
Or would a Canadian national / First Nation Canadian soldier's death not be registered in Scotland even though he died there?
Looby :)
Probably not as he was a serving soldier. Had a look, though, using the name we have, but nothing. Thanks for the idea.
So a serving soldier's death would be registered in his own country - and you obviously haven't found that in Canadian records :(
Looby
Can't find him anywhere at the moment. This may mean we do not have the correct name.
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:-\ He died in the Merryflats Military Hospital, Govan. By law, his death would need to be registered at the registry office there I would think. How it was reported back in Canada I don't know.
Monica
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Monica is correct about the death having to be registered in Scotland. Apart from that if he was still serving he would qualify for commemoration by the CWGC. However, difficult to know what name to search under on their database. The chances are that he is there somewhere. If he was still serving then someone would be keeping tabs on the outcome and that would have made its way into military records and, ultimately, to the CWGC.
Imber
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Monica is correct about the death having to be registered in Scotland. Apart from that if he was still serving he would qualify for commemoration by the CWGC. However, difficult to know what name to search under on their database. The chances are that he is there somewhere. If he was still serving then someone would be keeping tabs on the outcome and that would have made its way into military records and, ultimately, to the CWGC.
Imber
No doubt, the name is a problem. His death may have been registered but not in his First Nations name.
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Some possible sources to pursue:
http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.lac_reel_c8510/13?r=0&s=1
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/Pages/introduction.aspx#g
Imber
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Alan, is the timeline you are thinking of that this soldier was part of the group who arrived in Glasgow on 9 December 1916 and became ill and admitted to hospital then?
Just been looking at newspaper reports for William Freer in the Scotsman (Glasgow Herald hard to search after 1900). Just as an aside, I see that William Freer and family lived at 33 Montheith Row. My father and his family were living at 30 Montheith Row at this time. World is small.
You mentioned you had found out about this soldier from writings by William Freer. Guessing there was little detail other than what you mentioned.
Monica
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Re. CWGC. I had a look for a Canadian soldier buried in Glasgow in 1916 /17 and couldn't see any. There were about 7 Canadian servicemen buried at Ayr in Ayrshire during this time but the regiment was different : :-\
Unless I missed something ::)
Looby
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Some possible sources to pursue:
http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.lac_reel_c8510/13?r=0&s=1
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/Pages/introduction.aspx#g
Imber
Thank you.
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Alan, is the timeline you are thinking of that this soldier was part of the group who arrived in Glasgow on 9 December 1916 and became ill and admitted to hospital then?
Just been looking at newspaper reports for William Freer in the Scotsman (Glasgow Herald hard to search after 1900). Just as an aside, I see that William Freer and family lived at 33 Montheith Row. My father and his family were living at 30 Montheith Row at this time. World is small.
You mentioned you had found out about this soldier from writings by William Freer. Guessing there was little detail other than what you mentioned.
Monica
Hi Monica, it's Alistair not Alan :D We have tracked down a copy of the book in the National Library of Scotland, so will book to read it. We did find another Canadian that died in Merryflats but not until 1919, and there is no indication that he was First Nations.
Alistair
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Where did I get Alan from ::) Sorry!
Monica
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Where did I get Alan from ::) Sorry!
Monica
No problem, Maureen ;D
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;D
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You probably have this, but thought to add as it gives some more detail to the story although no answers:
Another fleeting recollection of 1915 was the swift passage through wartime Glasgow in a bleak week of smirring drizzle and gloom, of an exotic party of Canadian Indian troops commanded by Chief Clear Sky. They were on their way to the war and sampled Glasgow hospitality enjoying a first, and no doubt last, taste of black pudding.
But they left one young Indian behind. His name was Gay Flier. He was very very ill with flu and died in Govan Military Hospital. My grandpa had been seeing to Chief Clear Sky’s men when they were in Glasgow and so’s not to let the boy get buried in an unmarked grave he claimed the body and saw to it that there was a right funeral in Glasgow with magistrates there, a gun carriage and a party to fire a salute at the grave. It wasnae among his own open-air folk, but it was better than being not heeded at all.
https://dianacranstoun.com/tag/world-war-i/
Monica
PS: Just realised that aside from me calling you Alan rather than Alistair, I have also been referring to Walter Freer as William. I must have bopped by head yesterday!
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Wasn't it December 1916 when the Canadians were in Glasgow? Also, how odd, if magistrates, a gun carriage and party to fire salute were at the funeral, you would have expected even a small mention in the papers ( as numerous, similar funerals of the time were).
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Looking at some burials within a fortnight of the Canadians passing through Glasgow, I can see a David Stalkie, aged 25 (possibly the David Stalker, aged 21, in SP Service Returns for 1916, albeit on CWGC, can only see one David Stalker death in 1916, aged 19, on Thiepval memorial, died October), buried at Eastern Necropolis 29/12/1916, died at Merryflats from Consumption. No relatives mentioned. No other obvious burials from Merryflats at the Eastern during the two week or so period.
Any other nearby cemeteries to Merryflats that may have burial registers that can be viewed ? Checking Craigton just now.
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You probably have this, but thought to add as it gives some more detail to the story although no answers:
Another fleeting recollection of 1915 was the swift passage through wartime Glasgow in a bleak week of smirring drizzle and gloom, of an exotic party of Canadian Indian troops commanded by Chief Clear Sky. They were on their way to the war and sampled Glasgow hospitality enjoying a first, and no doubt last, taste of black pudding.
But they left one young Indian behind. His name was Gay Flier. He was very very ill with flu and died in Govan Military Hospital. My grandpa had been seeing to Chief Clear Sky’s men when they were in Glasgow and so’s not to let the boy get buried in an unmarked grave he claimed the body and saw to it that there was a right funeral in Glasgow with magistrates there, a gun carriage and a party to fire a salute at the grave. It wasnae among his own open-air folk, but it was better than being not heeded at all.
https://dianacranstoun.com/tag/world-war-i/
Monica
PS: Just realised that aside from me calling you Alan rather than Alistair, I have also been referring to Walter Freer as William. I must have bopped by head yesterday!
Thanks, Monica. It was 1916 in December that they came to Glasgow.
As to your problem with names - either advancing senility or not enough water in your whisky!
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Wasn't it December 1916 when the Canadians were in Glasgow? Also, how odd, if magistrates, a gun carriage and party to fire salute were at the funeral, you would have expected even a small mention in the papers ( as numerous, similar funerals of the time were).
I agree. The apparent absence of any report is unusual.
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Looking at some burials within a fortnight of the Canadians passing through Glasgow, I can see a David Stalkie, aged 25 (possibly the David Stalker, aged 21, in SP Service Returns for 1916, albeit on CWGC, can only see one David Stalker death in 1916, aged 19, on Thiepval memorial, died October), buried at Eastern Necropolis 29/12/1916, died at Merryflats from Consumption. No relatives mentioned. No other obvious burials from Merryflats at the Eastern during the two week or so period.
Any other nearby cemeteries to Merryflats that may have burial registers that can be viewed ? Checking Craigton just now.
The CWGC Stalker was in the West Kent Regiment, so unfortunately not Canadian. Thanks for looking.
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Just to add a bit more flavour...
https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/bts/2018/10/29/first-world-war-native-stories
Scroll down to Chief Clear Sky. His name was Joseph Henry Clear-Sky a Caughnawaga (Mohawk) from Quebec and he didn't survive the war.
Don
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Just to add a bit more flavour...
https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/bts/2018/10/29/first-world-war-native-stories
Scroll down to Chief Clear Sky. His name was Joseph Henry Clear-Sky a Caughnawaga (Mohawk) from Quebec and he didn't survive the war.
Don
Don, Are you sure he didn't survive? I found a record of Joseph Clear Sky, born 6 December 1888, died in Los Angeles on 11 January 1942.
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This one was born 2 Nov 1887 as written by him on his Attestation.
Perhaps Indian Affairs got it wrong.
Don
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This one was born 2 Nov 1887 as written by him on his Attestation.
Perhaps Indian Affairs got it wrong.
Don
Could be, Don. According to his Service Record, he was demobbed on 23 April 1919. There is also a record of him collaborating some time after the war with John Lame Deer on a history project.
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Not sure if this has been gone through before.
This is the Nominal Roll of the 114th Batallion taken at Camp Borden on 27 October 1916. It states that these are the men who came to England (is this the group who left for England on 31 October 1916?).
http://images.ourontario.ca/haldimandmuseums/74094/data?n=8
http://images.ourontario.ca/haldimandmuseums/73360/image/187789?n=12
I have worked through SP deaths for Lanark/Govan 1916-17 for a male aged 17-30, searching by a* b* c* etc and cross checking any enties (surprisingly, not too many) against this list. Sadly no matches :-\ Likely other lists? The Indian contigent of the 114th Battalion was up to 500? http://contentdm.ucalgary.ca/digital/collection/cmh/id/37993
Monica
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Not sure if this has been gone through before.
This is the Nominal Roll of the 114th Batallion taken at Camp Borden on 27 October 1916. It states that these are the men who came to England (is this the group who left for England on 31 October 1916?).
http://images.ourontario.ca/haldimandmuseums/74094/data?n=8
http://images.ourontario.ca/haldimandmuseums/73360/image/187789?n=12
I have worked through SP deaths for Lanark/Govan 1916-17 for a male aged 17-30, searching by a* b* c* etc and cross checking any enties (surprisingly, not too many) against this list. Sadly no matches :-\ Likely other lists? The Indian contigent of the 114th Battalion was up to 500? http://contentdm.ucalgary.ca/digital/collection/cmh/id/37993
Monica
Given that it is a Military Hospital - could the death have been recorded under Service Returns in the Minor Records rather than specifically Govan, Glasgow or even Lanarkshire.
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Yes, there is that too, Falkryn.
You cannot search for those online on SP as a database which is a pity (used to be able to before the major changes on the site a couple of years ago I think). Not sure if you can do this with a personal search at one of the main centres?
Monica
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This may be a more complete list of the 114th Battalion http://data2.archives.ca/e/e444/e011092706.pdf
Monica
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Yes, there is that too, Falkryn.
You cannot search for those online on SP as a database which is a pity (used to be able to before the major changes on the site a couple of years ago I think). Not sure if you can do this with a personal search at one of the main centres?
Monica
Searching for males 17 to 30 died from 1916 to 1917 without using any names or initials gives quite a few returns on the Minor records - too many to search through
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My grandfather died in Stobhill Military Hospital while he was home on leave in 1919, his cause of death was directly linked to the war and his death is recorded in the 1919 returns, not in the Service Returns.
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Hopefully Falrkryn's suggestion of making contact with the dedicated NHS Archivist at the Mitchell may yield something new.
Monica
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You probably have this, but thought to add as it gives some more detail to the story although no answers:
Another fleeting recollection of 1915 was the swift passage through wartime Glasgow in a bleak week of smirring drizzle and gloom, of an exotic party of Canadian Indian troops commanded by Chief Clear Sky. They were on their way to the war and sampled Glasgow hospitality enjoying a first, and no doubt last, taste of black pudding.
But they left one young Indian behind. His name was Gay Flier. He was very very ill with flu and died in Govan Military Hospital. My grandpa had been seeing to Chief Clear Sky’s men when they were in Glasgow and so’s not to let the boy get buried in an unmarked grave he claimed the body and saw to it that there was a right funeral in Glasgow with magistrates there, a gun carriage and a party to fire a salute at the grave. It wasnae among his own open-air folk, but it was better than being not heeded at all.
https://dianacranstoun.com/tag/world-war-i/
Monica
PS: Just realised that aside from me calling you Alan rather than Alistair, I have also been referring to Walter Freer as William. I must have bopped by head yesterday!
Would a serving soldier who died in a military hospital be buried in an unmarked grave?
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Would a serving soldier who died in a military hospital be buried in an unmarked grave?
It's possible, as the CWGC did not come into being until 1917 (Royal Charter dated 21st May 1917)
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Would a serving soldier who died in a military hospital be buried in an unmarked grave?
It's possible, as the CWGC did not come into being until 1917 (Royal Charter dated 21st May 1917)
I feel sure that Walter Freer would not have allowed him to be buried in an unmarked grave. It is believed he claimed the body and arranged the funeral. Again, it is believed he was buried with military honours.
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The Southern General Archivist says, "I can confirm that we hold a substantial archive from the Southern General Hospital (formerly Govan Parochial Poorhouse Hospital) at Merryflats. I am sorry to have to say that we cannot help you as we do not possess any records of Govan War Hospital / Govan Military Hospital. The records of temporary military hospitals were all gathered up in 1919 for use by the Ministry of Pensions. The Ministry had been created to deal with claims for disability pensions, widows’ pensions, etc. To the best of my knowledge and belief, the records of temporary military hospitals are in the custody of the War Pensions Branch of the Department of Social Security. Unfortunately the DSS does not provide a research service. There is some uncertainty as to where Govan War Hospital / Govan Military Hospital was located. The minutes of the Parish Council show that they offered the army the use of premises at Merryflats and were turned down. One possibility is that the terms Govan War Hospital and Govan Military Hospital may refer to the British Red Cross Hospital in Bellahouston Park. This, however, makes little difference as the Bellahouston records seem to have been collected up with the rest."
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Mmmm :-\ That is a disappointment.
It is a pity the Glasgow Herald is not searchable by key word from 1900. I have tried all sorts of key word searches on the Daily Record, Sunday People and the Scotsman but nothing showing for me.
As fantastic as it is to have google's images of the Glasgow Herald through the 1900s, images can be quite hard to work through page by page https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=GGgVawPscysC
What's left, Alastair? Walter Freer's book, 'My Life and Memories'?
Monica
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Craigton interment records had a good number of folks buried from Merryflats in the few weeks after mid December, but no obvious 'Gay Flier'. Their books also noted who owned/purchased the grave, but none of those checked for the period seemed to be Walter Freer, unless I missed any when looking (they aren't indexed, unfortunately). If anyone wants to double check, they are available at :
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nt4/
With Craigton for the timescale being https://www.familysearch.org/search/film/008012786?cat=1305975
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As a side note, Walter Freer and some family members were buried at Cathcart Cemetery www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2164838/memorial-search?firstName=&lastName=freer&page=1#sr-158275666
Monica
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Flyer became the name of the 114 when it was absorbed in 1916.
I think you your best shot at finding who you seek will be at the Mitchell in Glasgow. I would imagine there would have been a blurb about the burial in the Herald but perhaps not.
Did your wife ever read "The People of the Longhouse" highly recommend it if she hasn't. And one last thing about the photo. The one wearing an Onondaga headdress is the one on the right not the one shaking hands who is wearing a western style headdress. Here's an example http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/newhouse_seth_15E.html
Don
Looks like 4 chiefs with different headdresses
https://picclick.co.uk/m1d-ephemera-ww1-1916-picture-canadian-indians-323764382766.html#&gid=1&pid=1
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Mmmm :-\ That is a dissapointment.
It is a pity the Glasgow Herald is not searchable by key word from 1900. I have tried all sorts of key word searches on the Daily Record, Sunday People and the Scotsman but nothing showing for me.
As fantastic as it is to have google's images of the Glasgow Herald through the 1900s, images can be quite hard to work through page by page https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=GGgVawPscysC
What's left, Alastair? Walter Freer's book, 'My Life and Memories'?
Monica
Yes, we still have to book a reading at National Library of Scotland, and I have been in touch with the Curator at Haldimand Museum. She feels that Gay Flier may have been a nickname.
I'm really grateful for the efforts that you are all making to help.
Alistair
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Flyer became the name of the 114 when it was absorbed in 1916.
I think you your best shot at finding who you seek will be at the Mitchell in Glasgow. I would imagine there would have been a blurb about the burial in the Herald but perhaps not.
Did your wife ever read "The People of the Longhouse" highly recommend it if she hasn't. And one last thing about the photo. The one wearing an Onondaga headdress is the one on the right not the one shaking hands who is wearing a western style headdress. Here's an example http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/newhouse_seth_15E.html
Don
Looks like 4 chiefs with different headdresses
https://picclick.co.uk/m1d-ephemera-ww1-1916-picture-canadian-indians-323764382766.html#&gid=1&pid=1
Chief Cook, standing on the left in the picture with the Lord Provost is wearing the correct headdress ffor the area from which the Haldimand Rifles were recruited. Chief Clear Sky, shaking hands with the Lord Provost, is wearing a Western headdress. Clear Sky, by the way, was a vaudeville entertainer.
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The Southern General Archivist says, "I can confirm that we hold a substantial archive from the Southern General Hospital (formerly Govan Parochial Poorhouse Hospital) at Merryflats. I am sorry to have to say that we cannot help you as we do not possess any records of Govan War Hospital / Govan Military Hospital. The records of temporary military hospitals were all gathered up in 1919 for use by the Ministry of Pensions. The Ministry had been created to deal with claims for disability pensions, widows’ pensions, etc. To the best of my knowledge and belief, the records of temporary military hospitals are in the custody of the War Pensions Branch of the Department of Social Security. Unfortunately the DSS does not provide a research service. There is some uncertainty as to where Govan War Hospital / Govan Military Hospital was located. The minutes of the Parish Council show that they offered the army the use of premises at Merryflats and were turned down. One possibility is that the terms Govan War Hospital and Govan Military Hospital may refer to the British Red Cross Hospital in Bellahouston Park. This, however, makes little difference as the Bellahouston records seem to have been collected up with the rest."
I believe the archivist is wrong about Merrylats and Bellahouston although both are within Govan Parish.
1. Historic Environment Scotland places them at two different locations (both basically where you would expect them to be)
2.The National Archives in England have some records - searching for "merryflats" brings up three references to soldiers being treated in Merryflats Military Hospital in Govan (Ministry of Health series MH106) - In a similar vein searching for Bellahouston also brings up references to Bellahouston Hospital (although after the war)
I do not believe that the two terms are interchangeable although the archivist may be correct regarding the records having been swept up by the Ministry of Health and a visit to the National Archives in Kew may be required
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Where did the info about him dying at Merryflats come from?
Could he be in a lair owned by Walter Freer and under the Freer name?
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Where did the info about him dying at Merryflats come from?
Could he be in a lair owned by Walter Freer and under the Freer name?
The original information says Govan Military Hospital. Are Govan Military Hospital and Merryflats Military Hospital one and the same place?
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The original information says Govan Military Hospital. Are Govan Military Hospital and Merryflats Military Hospital one and the same place?
According to Historic Environment Scotland Merryflats was referred to as the Govan Military Hospital. The confusion appears to stem from the fact that the Red Cross Hospital in Bellahouston was also in Govan and was referred to as the Scottish National War Hospital.
I wonder if given their relatively close proximity it is possible that for administration purposes one was treated as an offshoot of the other.
In either case it would appear that the records are not in Scotland but if they survived may be in the Archives at Kew.
For any trace in Scotland, Sancti's suggestion may be the path to follow.
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I find it strange that there is no record on CWGC of a Canadian being buried in Glasgow at that time, especially as he was allegedly buried with full military honours
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I went through the Glasgow Herald from 9-22 December last night. Couldn't see anything. I worked from the timings that the group left Glasgow on the 9th for Edinburgh. They were there for a few days before heading back to England. My thoughts are that if Gay Flier took ill when the group arrived in Glasgow and admitted to a Glasgow Hospital unable leave Glasgow with the rest of Group, not sure how many days he was ill for before he died but with pneunomia likely not too many days before he died. Just trying to work within some timescales.
Monica
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In either case it would appear that the records are not in Scotland but if they survived may be in the Archives at Kew.
From the National Archives, there are only 3 refs to Merryflats Military Hospital that I can see. The source for these seems to be 'Medical Sheets 1914-15'
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=merryflats%20war%20hospital&_dss=range&_sd=1916&_ed=1917&_ro=any&_p=1900&_st=adv
References to the Red Cross hospital are also few:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_dss=range&_sd=1916&_ed=1917&_ro=any&_p=1900&_q=Scottish+AND+National+AND+red+AND+cross+AND+War+AND+Hospital+AND+Bellahouston+
The main holdings at TNA, as described by the Southern General Hospital Archivist, are these https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10949
Not clear whether the individual records linked above are all there is for these hospitals (and period 1914-15) or what else they may hold for these hospitals.
Monica
PS: Happy to follow up further in person at TNA if we can confirm that they hold some relevant records for the hospitals and dates we need.
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I find it strange that there is no record on CWGC of a Canadian being buried in Glasgow at that time, especially as he was allegedly buried with full military honours
CWGC records are not perfect, particularly when people died from causes unrelated to combat. Even now, casualties from WW1 are being added to the database.
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Hi again,
Been following the thread with interest. Searched on British Newspaper Archive for some mention of the funeral given to Gay Flier, but no joy.
Can I ask, how many sources do you have for the death and burial taking place?
Looby :)
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Hi again,
Been following the thread with interest. Searched on British Newspaper Archive for some mention of the funeral given to Gay Flier, but no joy.
Can I ask, how many sources do you have for the death and burial taking place?
Looby :)
From the book, TEA AT MISS CRANSTON’S, which recounts the memories of Glaswegians growing up in the city in the first half of the 20th Century.
Chapter 15 – Their Weans Would Never Be. P127
Another fleeting recollection of 1915 was the swift passage through wartime Glasgow in a bleak week of smirring drizzle and gloom, of an exotic party of Canadian Indian troops commanded by Chief Clear Sky. They were on their way to the war and sampled Glasgow hospitality enjoying a first, and no doubt last, taste of black pudding.
But they left one young Indian behind. His name was Gay Flier. He was very very ill with flu and died in Govan Military Hospital. My grandpa had been seeing to Chief Clear Sky’s men when they were in Glasgow and so’s not to let the boy get buried in an unmarked grave he claimed the body and saw to it that there was a right funeral in Glasgow with magistrates there, a gun carriage and a party to fire a salute at the grave. It wasnae among his own open-air folk, but it was better than being not heeded at all.
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A copy of Walter Freer's book My Life and Memories is available on Ebay just now being sold to raise funds for the Red Cross at £40 - more attractive than the £127 on Amazon! They are open to offers so it might be that a bid of around £30 might secure it given it's unlikely to sell quickly.
Imber
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A copy of Walter Freer's book My Life and Memories is available on Ebay just now being sold to raise funds for the Red Cross at £40 - more attractive than the £127 on Amazon! They are open to offers so it might be that a bid of around £30 might secure it given it's unlikely to sell quickly.
Imber
Well spotted. I've made an offer.
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We have had a bit of a discussion previously here as to whether deaths at the military hospitals would show on the statutory records or service returns only.
The snip below is from a 19yr old Welsh soldier's death reg at Merryflats military hospital. It shows on the statutory records in Govan...that is not to say that they may all show this way. Just adds to the problem of finding him so far:
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My understanding is/was...
If anyone Military/Seaman/Airman...
KIA (while on duty) as opposed to dying in a Hospital or abode would be listed as one of the many choices of 'Service Returns'...whereas dying in a Hosp/abode they technically weren't KIA i.e. recorded as a 'Statutory' although as they were recognised as 'Service' then the info. would be passed on to whichever authority, Military/Sea/Air i.e. records with whichever should still have been noted with their 'Service' as it's only a difference of how they died i.e. not 'killed'?
Annie
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My understanding is/was...
If anyone Military/Seaman/Airman...
KIA (while on duty) as opposed to dying in a Hospital or abode would be listed as one of the many choices of 'Service Returns'...whereas dying in a Hosp/abode they technically weren't KIA i.e. recorded as a 'Statutory' although as they were recognised as 'Service' then the info. would be passed on to whichever authority, Military/Sea/Air i.e. records with whichever should still have been noted with their 'Service' as it's only a difference of how they died i.e. not 'killed'?
Annie
In theory this should give us two bites at the cherry but the difficulty here is that :-
a) we don't know Gay Flier's name -- is Gay Flier his real tribal name or was he known by an anglicised version (I suspect that the authorities would have used the latter for record purposes)
b) we don't know when the young man died - The contingent of troops he was with arrived in Glasgow on Wednesday 6th December 1916 and left for Edinburgh on Saturday 9th (reported in both the Glasgow Herald and Scotsman Newspapers of that date).
c) there also appears to be some confusion over where he died - The NHS Archivist says that Merryflats was turned down by the military for use as a war hospital but other records appear to contradict that. The Red Cross Hospital at Bellahouston is another candidate but while it is in Govan Parish I very much doubt if anyone local to Glasgow would refer to it as the "Govan Hospital"
Must admit I have enjoyed reading the Glasgow Herald for the period although I have only managed 2 weeks worth so far with no mention of the death or funeral.
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Must admit I have enjoyed reading the Glasgow Herald for the period although I have only managed 2 weeks worth so far with no mention of the death or funeral.
I've read through the Glasgow Herald up to the Christmas of 1916 too and like you can see no mention of either death or funeral of a Canadian soldier - although it's been an interesting read.
I hope Cramond Brig is successful in purchasing Walter Freer's book on Ebay - it will be interesting to know if this episode is recorded in his memoir.
I, too, have the book Tea at Miss Cranston's - read it so long ago I've forgotten most of what's in it :-[
The book was first published in 1985 and the memories within were gathered by the author from Glaswegians over a an unspecified time frame. I looked up the passage referring to Gay Flier to see who the quote was attributed too - but unfortunately there is no name - the contributor just refers to her "grandpa".
Looby :)
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A copy of Walter Freer's book My Life and Memories is available on Ebay just now being sold to raise funds for the Red Cross at £40 - more attractive than the £127 on Amazon! They are open to offers so it might be that a bid of around £30 might secure it given it's unlikely to sell quickly.
Imber
Made an offer for the book which has been accepted. I will let you all know what is inside.
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We will have to wait...impatiently ;)
A post here on RC on Walter Freer and family www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=731144.0
I did say I had bumped my head earlier...no memory of this at all :-\
Monica
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From the book, TEA AT MISS CRANSTON’S, which recounts the memories of Glaswegians growing up in the city in the first half of the 20th Century.
Chapter 15 – Their Weans Would Never Be. P127
....But they left one young Indian behind. His name was Gay Flier. He was very very ill with flu and died in Govan Military Hospital. My grandpa had been seeing to Chief Clear Sky’s men when they were in Glasgow and so’s not to let the boy get buried in an unmarked grave he claimed the body and saw to it that there was a right funeral in Glasgow with magistrates there, a gun carriage and a party to fire a salute at the grave. It wasnae among his own open-air folk, but it was better than being not heeded at all.[/i]
I think this grandchild may have been a Thomas Watson. Also in TEA AT MISS CRANSTON’S, chapter 18 - www.rootschat.com/links/01nts/ shrunk link from google books.
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We will have to wait...impatiently ;)
A post here on RC on Walter Freer and family www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=731144.0
I did say I had bumped my head earlier...no memory of this at all :-\
Monica
A lot of people on these posts who might also be interested in the book.
Not remembering - I have the same problem. In my case it is an age thing >:(.
Alistair
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Here is an extract from Walter Frier's book. I'm not sure if it helps much, but at least the event is confirmed: -
CHIEF OF THE IROQUOIS
Later on, Chief Clear Sky revisited Glasgow, and as the representative of the various tribes which had units in the battalion raised me to the dignity of Sub-Chief of the Iroquois with the euphonious title of “Sa-Go-Wee-Hay,” meaning Chief Generous the Giver. One of my friends suggested it should have been, “Say-Go-Wee-Freer.”
There are two good stories connected with this visit. One night I was discussing with the purveyor what the men should have for tea. I suggested in fun to give them a Scotch black pudding.
That evening when the men sat down, each one of them found an unknown and rather weird article on his plate. Not one of them touched it. They looked at the pudding, then at each other, flabbergasted. It was necessary for me to address them and let them know that this was a peculiar Scotch dainty, but that they need not eat it unless they liked, as ham and eggs were prepared for them all.
Within three minutes of my stepping down every pudding, skin and all, had vanished, and next day they asked if they could have black puddings again!
The other story might have been something more than a joke. Among other places of entertainment which we visited was Hengler’s Circus. This the Indians enjoyed best of all especially the horses.
While Doodles, that very talented humourist and ring jester, was playing one of his interludes, he drew me into the ring and started to box me. To keep up the joke, Mr. Hengler and his manager, Mr. Milne, came forward in their most dignified manner and demanding what right I had coming into their house, gripped me by the shoulders and started to pull me out.
In a jiffy there arose a wild whoop from the Indians, who sprang to their feet and rushed into the ring to tomahawk Mr. Hengler and Mr. Milne! They let me go and, by making signs to the men, I was able to show them it was fun. But they were not very sure and kept me under watch during the remainder of the show.
These men, such splendid specimens in physique, suffered greatly in the theatre of war. I was appointed Vice-Consul for their province, so that when any of them came back on furlough they came to Glasgow.
One day I was advised that a splendid fellow called Gayflier, the private secretary to Chief Clear Sky, was lying ill in the military hospital at Govan. These men had no power of resistance to influenza. They were like the coloured American troops who came over later. Influenza killed them in dozens. In ten days Gayflier died, and was about to be buried with other unclaimed bodies, when, as Vice-Consul of the province, I claimed the body.
With a gun-carriage and a firing party of twenty soldiers, accompanied by several of the magistrates of the city, this youth who had come from the land of the sky-blue water was laid to rest in the land of the white faces.
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Excellent news - and a very interesting extract, Cramond Brig.
This book was written in the 1920s. wasn't it? So much nearer the time of the incident.
Interestingly , Walter tells of the men tasting black pudding - also mentioned in "Tea at Miss
Cranston's"
Freer says I was appointed Vice-Consul for their province, so that when any of them came back on furlough they came to Glasgow.
then One day I was advised that a splendid fellow called Gayflier, the private secretary to Chief Clear Sky, was lying ill in the military hospital at Govan.
So the death could have been when Gayflier was on leave and could have been much later than the December 1916 visit.
Looby :)
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Excellent news - and a very interesting extract, Cramond Brig.
This book was written in the 1920s. wasn't it? So much nearer the time of the incident.
Interestingly , Walter tells of the men tasting black pudding - also mentioned in "Tea at Miss
Cranston's"
Freer says I was appointed Vice-Consul for their province, so that when any of them came back on furlough they came to Glasgow.
then One day I was advised that a splendid fellow called Gayflier, the private secretary to Chief Clear Sky, was lying ill in the military hospital at Govan.
So the death could have been when Gayflier was on leave and could have been much later than the December 1916 visit.
Looby :)
The book was published in 1929. You have alluded to one problem. The year of death is not clear.
Alistair
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Based on that extract , I would say the death is after 1916 :-\
I think the grandchild's memory in the Miss Cranston book has been misremembered and tied in mistakenly with the "Indians" first visit to Glasgow.
You need to expand your search, unfortunately, up to the date the troops returned to Canada.
Looby :)
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Based on that extract , I would say the death is after 1916 :-\
I think the grandchild's memory in the Miss Cranston book has been misremembered and tied in mistakenly with the "Indians" first visit to Glasgow.
You need to expand your search, unfortunately, up to the date the troops returned to Canada.
Looby :)
I agree. There is no record of a soldier with that name. I'm afraid Mr Freer may have got the name wrong.
Alistair
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These men, such splendid specimens in physique, suffered greatly in the theatre of war. I was appointed Vice-Consul for their province, so that when any of them came back on furlough they came to Glasgow.
This sentence would also indicate that the young mans death was later than the original visit but in placing the incident before the troops who later came from America - this would appear to put the timescale into 1917/18. Unfortunately though there is no one listed by that name or anything similar on Scotlands People (either the regular lists or the Service Returns). This of course brings us back to the name question - was he bured under his tribal name or was an anglicised version used ?
I wonder who holds the Canadian Troop Records ?
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Why would the body of a soldier who died in a military hospital be 'unclaimed'?
Walter Freer received his award from Chief Clear Sky February 1918 according to a report in the Daily Record dated 20 February 1918.
If he 'claimed' the body as a vice-consul then the death must have been after this date.
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Why would the body of a soldier who died in a military hospital be 'unclaimed'?
Yes, that is a bit of a puzzle. There are other Canadian soldiers dying in Glasgow - I've been looking on CWGC website at several who are buried in Western Necropolis - why would this soldier "Gayflier" not be given a similar military burial?
Looby :)
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Why would the body of a soldier who died in a military hospital be 'unclaimed'?
It woud appear that before the formation of the CWGC (May 1917) that matters were basically left up to the families of the deceased to make arrangements.
Walter Freer received his award from Chief Clear Sky February 1918 according to a report in the Daily Record dated 20 February 1918.
If he 'claimed' the body as a vice-consul then the death must have been after this date.
I wonder if the "Vice Consul" position was before this - The dates are problematic and unfortunately Mr Freer does not appear to go into greater detail regarding his intent at the time. Was he referring to the possibility of an unmarked grave for "Gayflier" - which would put it before the establishment of the CWGC or was he referring to the funeral service itself i.e. he wanted to make sure the young man had a decent send off.
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I don't think the CWGC buried the dead on UK soil free of charge, either before or after 1917. The families had to pay something towards the ground and the CWGC then erected the headstone. If this wasn't the case, can anyone tell me why there are at least 6 or 8 WWI servicemen buried in common graves in the Western Necropolis of Glasgow?
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I wonder who holds the Canadian Troop Records ?
There are images of Canadian soldiers' papers on the Library Canada web site.
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/personnel-records.aspx
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I wonder who holds the Canadian Troop Records ?
There are images of Canadian soldiers' papers on the Library Canada web site.
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/personnel-records.aspx
This puts our British records to shame - and it's free. I have tried many variations of Gayflier but so far, no luck.
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I think I may have found him....let me get the sources together...
Monica
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I don't think the CWGC buried the dead on UK soil free of charge, either before or after 1917. The families had to pay something towards the ground and the CWGC then erected the headstone. If this wasn't the case, can anyone tell me why there are at least 6 or 8 WWI servicemen buried in common graves in the Western Necropolis of Glasgow?
Perhaps this may be better directed to the CWGC who state their aims are
The Commission's principles are:
Each of the dead should be commemorated by name on the headstone or memorial
Headstones and memorials should be permanent
Headstones should be uniform
There should be no distinction made on account of military rank, race or creed
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Memorial, this is not the same as a headstone. There are servicemen buried in pauper's graves in Glasgow whose names are on a memorial in the cemetery. When I contacted the CWGC I was told that the onus was on the families to bury the dead.
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ORLAFF CRYSLER
Attested with the 114th Battalion at Camp Borden on 6 Spetember 1916.
He shows on the Nominal Rolls for the 114th Battallion heading off to England in November 2016 - https://militaryandfamilyhistory.blog/2016/04/18/nominal-rolls-of-the-canadian-expeditionary-force/
His service papers are here www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=128351
His death reg, from pneumonia on 16 February 1919, at Merryflats War Hospital. Death registered in the statutory Govan death registers on SP (1919 CRYSLER, ORLAFF - Statutory registers Deaths 644/21 355). Haven't checked yet what may show re his death on the Canadian military sites or elsewhere. See below:
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Probably a victim of Spanish 'flu.
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ORLAFF CRYSLER
Ahhhh, I looked at this chap on CWGC - thought to myself " This name potentially rhymes with Flier ::)" - but there was nothing on his record leapt out that he was the man buried by Walter Freer.
Certainly sounds with pneumonia as cause of death and the year 1919 , that he could have been a victim of the Spanish Influenza epidemic.
Looby :)
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Buried in the Western Necropolis Glasgow (from CWGC)
(image from a Public tree on Ancestry)
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Yes, looks to be where he was buried.
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See also www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/666124/crysler,-/
Monica
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See also www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/666124/crysler,-/
Monica
Good work, Monica. I also had this man, but couldn't see where Freer got Gayflier from.
His wife (and mother-in-law) were First Nations - Mohawk.
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I suppose the ultimate check would be to check the lair owners registers. For the Western Necropolis, that is no mean task :-\
If you were considering having a look through the existing microfilms - The Mitchell don't have any Burial Records for the Western Necropolis.
As for the 'digitising' project - that's been the story for a good few years now and I haven't heard if anything is actually anywhere near being accessible. Apparently although all the filming has been done, no-one quite knows how to index it!! ::)
Anne
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Unfortunately the digitised burial & lair records previously held by Glasgow City Council and now at the City Archives in the Mitchell are not available to the public.
I spoke to the staff a few months ago regarding them and apparently they are still in "negotiations" to centralise the records at the Mitchell but while the records are not publicly available a staff member can conduct a search for you - at a price ( I am told the price is much lower than the figures reputed to have been quoted by Glasgow Council cemeteries Department) - I think I remember seeing someone on RC mentioning £10 per hour for a search. All enquiries to be addressed to the Mitchell and they prefer email.
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Well done, Monica, I do think you've cracked it.....the more I look at the names....
CRYSLER
GAYFLIER
Maybe Walter was working from scrawled notes ;D ??
Could there be something about the burial in the press of 1919?
Looby :)
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Well done, Monica, I do think you've cracked it.....the more I look at the names....
CRYSLER
GAYFLIER
Maybe Walter was working from scrawled notes ;D ??
Could there be something about the burial in the press of 1919?
Looby :)
I've checked the Glasgow Herald for 10 days after the date of death but found nothing - rather surprising given Mr Freer's description of the event. Although there are various articles concerning the spread and rising number of deaths from Influenza
Maybe Walter was working from scrawled notes ;D ??
I know that feeling too well ;D
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Maybe Walter was working from scrawled notes ;D ??
I know that feeling too well ;D
Me too !! ;D
Re- Glasgow Herald and the burial - that's a shame …..perhaps by February 1919 there had been so many service deaths/ burials and so many influenza deaths that another funeral (albeit of a Canadian First Nation soldier) wasn't thought newsworthy :'(
I've been trawling through news items from 1918 for something relating to my own research and have been struck by the number of references to influenza deaths :'(
Looby :)
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I don't think the CWGC buried the dead on UK soil free of charge, either before or after 1917. The families had to pay something towards the ground and the CWGC then erected the headstone. If this wasn't the case, can anyone tell me why there are at least 6 or 8 WWI servicemen buried in common graves in the Western Necropolis of Glasgow?
The CWGC (or IWGC as it was first known) was not responsible for burying the dead. That was done by others. In the fullness of time details of burial places were normally made known to the Commission who then made arrangements to record and commemorate them. On the battlefields recording was more systematic thanks to the work of the Army Graves Registration Units but clearly in the UK the situation was quite different and recording was much more random. In the UK many chose to mark graves privately but the Commission still records those graves in its register. If the private marker deteriorates beyond repair they may replace it with a Commission headstone. In the case of the common graves at the Western Necropolis it may well be that they were buried by the hospital or other authorities rather than by families. Three of the five in P2585 died in Stobhill Hospital, one died in the Western Infirmary and the final one was found dead in a close. All died between 2 and 14 November 1918 which may suggest that the lair was designated for such burials.
Because of the inadequate recording procedures etc unmarked burials still come to light. Earlier this year, together with a friend, both of us ex CWGC, we located the unmarked grave of a soldier who had died at home from illness and was buried at Duffus, Moray. After providing the necessary evidence to the satisfaction of the CWGC an official headstone was erected and marked by a small ceremony on the anniversary of his death one hundred and one years later.
Imber
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From the lair book, so this chap, Orlaff Crysler, was buried by the war department, it seems (column is for naming lair proprietor). If he was 'Gayflier', it is still possible that Walter had involvement, albeit it doesn't seem to fit with the story of Walter claiming the body to avoid an unmarked grave.
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Very well done Monica and Scotmum!
Imber
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Excellent sleuthing all, too many to mention, well done ;)
The extract at Reply #77 added a whole new dimension as the interpretation was key.
Annie
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I have so enjoyed working with you all on this thread ;)
Have to admit that I was personally totally ignorant of the huge effort and involvement by the First Nations' soldiers in WW1. I have learnt a lot these last few days.
Monica :)
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I have so enjoyed working with you all on this thread ;)
Have to admit that I was personally totally ignorant of the huge effort and involvement by the First Nations' soldiers in WW1. I have learnt a lot these last few days.
Monica :)
My wife, Professor Yvonne McEwen, is currently researching the First Nations/Scottish connections. Many of the men who came over in WW1 had Scottish surnames as a result of aboriginal women marrying Scots. After the war, First Nations sent money which contributed to the building of houses for veterans. At Longniddry, there are Mohawk cottage, Tomahawk cottage and Warrior cottage.
Some more information at http://www.scotlandswar.co.uk/clear_sky.html and http://www.scotlandswar.co.uk/housing.html
Alistair
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This has nothing at all to do with your latest posts but some time ago you posted a headstone and information regarding Thomas Neilson and his wife Margaret Smart and family in the Wellwynd Churchyard. Today we tried to locate that very worn headstone in that cemetery and could not locate it. Can you confirm if any have been removed as was indicated in 2009 or are they all still there and the location of the Lair owners book you referred to at the time. Visiting from New Zealand and only have tomorrow 29th to locate this. Very grateful if you could recollect anything.
skiffz
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This has nothing at all to do with your latest posts but some time ago you posted a headstone and information regarding Thomas Neilson and his wife Margaret Smart and family in the Wellwynd Churchyard. Today we tried to locate that very worn headstone in that cemetery and could not locate it. Can you confirm if any have been removed as was indicated in 2009 or are they all still there and the location of the Lair owners book you referred to at the time. Visiting from New Zealand and only have tomorrow 29th to locate this. Very grateful if you could recollect anything.
skiffz
I'm afraid all I know is a report that North Lanarkshire Council "tidied up" the Churchyard.
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skiffz, this was a thread from 2013 with pictures:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=522589.msg5300825#msg5300825
and a thread from 2009:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=358605.0
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Thank you for your replies we will try again today. Heard that when car park was created they didn’t move bodies but some headstones may have been placed around side of remaining cemetery. That might explain the placement of the one we are seeking ie lying down beside wall as shown in posted image.