RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Leicestershire => Topic started by: pcjr on Thursday 09 May 19 05:48 BST (UK)
-
Hello,
Needing help to look for death and burial of John Outram born 1783 St Mary, Leicester.
married Susannah Jemima Rider in 1800, born c 1785 st Mary, died 1814 St Margaret.
children John Outram 1806 St Mary.
Susannah and John could have been married before this marriage. Susannah is down as widow . on the burial form for her in 1814.
thank you
pcjr
-
The only John Outram showing up in Leicestershire burials is at St Mary, Leicester and is clearly not the one you are searching for:
4 February 1816 - aged 70 or Horsepool Street.
-
Errrrm!!!
Marriage entry for John Outram 11 November 1800 is to Jemima Rider, by Licence.
The Bond and Allegation state that John OUtram is a Framework Knitter, a widower, aged 50, and Jemima is a widow, aged 40 of the parish of All Saints.
-
Baptisms - St Mary, Leicester:
John Outram - son of John and Susan - 28 February 1806
John Outram - son of John and Ann - 12 August 1783
-
Is this John Outram's first marriage - St Mary, Leicester
22 July 1770 - Ann Lacy
Two signatures for comparison :)
-
The will of John in 1817 mentions his daughter, Ann Jelley, and sons, Soloman and Thomas. All children of John and Ann, so presumably John's siblings.
He doesn't mention a son named John or a wife.
Soloman was baptised as Attram, so John may have died under a variation, but I can't find one.
David
-
So, Jemima and Susannah are 2 different people, and the 2 John's appear to be father and son.
Annette
-
So the will is related to the John Outram who was buried on 4 February 1816 - preface to the will states that John died 31 January 1816.
Father of Ann, Solomon and Thomas.
-
St Mary, Leicester - by Banns - 30 November 1801
Richard Jelley (x) and Ann Outram (x) - botp
Robert Jelley is a witness
-
I noticed that Soloman Outram was in the army, retired in 1836 and died in 1849. A person of that name married Martha Garner in 1836.
I wondered if John was also in the army and there is a possibility. A John Outram of St Mary's, Leicester, enlisted in Nottingham on 23 Oct 1806. Nothing to confirm that it was him but, if he died abroad, there may not be a record.
David
-
There is quite a lot of source material on John's military career in this public tree https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/76873421/person/32357876272/facts
The owner has the wrong marriage for his parents though!
-
A John Outram shown as aged 25 (bc.1785) was bur.9/7/1810 St. Philip, Barbados - could this be John b.1783 who appears to have enlisted in 1806 - could a soldier have ended up in Barbados? If this is the John b.1783 it would explain why he is not mentioned in his fathers will when he died 1816.
Annette
-
Ann, W of John Artram - buried 8 November 1797 at St Mary, Leicester - aged 46.
I have assumed that W = wife. Some other female burials have no defining titles.
Added: not quite sure now, what do you think?
-
John's headstone for burial 1816 with wife Ann 5th ? 1798
https://billiongraves.com/grave/John-Outram/13689071
-
Many thanks for all of your help so far, its all interesting,
1. We have two people, one named Susan and the other Jemima
2. Susan could be the wife of John Outram (1783) as Annette as found the death of a John Outram in 1810, which states that he was in the army enlisted in 1806, If it is the same guy, this means that Susan was left at home with a new born as their son also called John was born in 1806,when John was christened did they both attend the event? or was he called away later on eg 1810, Why did he go to Barbados, was their a war on then? If John died in 1810 this also explains the widow part in Susannah death notice in 1814 ,age 29, was she from St Margaret's parish, which could explain her own burial their. I guess son John would have been bought by grandparents.
3. John Outram marriage is 1800, widow 50 which makes his birth around 1750.
4, Jemima Rider wid 40 which makes her birth around 1760. I also see that she was from All Saints.
Thinking about it ,is their any chance of looking for Susan ???? 1785 from St Margaret's. or even her marriage to John Outram, one would think that she would have got married in her own parish.
Just some ideas,
pcjr
New Zealand
-
I'd be inclined to discount the Barbados death. There are Outrams in Barbados from the mid-17th century, possibly earlier.
-
Strange about that headstone - death for Ann said to be 5 November 1798 aged 47. There are no burial entries at St Mary, Leicester around that date for any Ann.
The image from the parish records which I posted -
Burial: 8 November 1797 - Ann aged 46.
Which is correct :-\
-
The headstone is also here - https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/150949429/john-outram
It looks as though the death was 5th November, which would correlate with the burial in 1797. The inscription was probably added when John's stone was carved and so the year could be a mistake.
David
-
I agree with David that the year could be a mistake. I am also thinking as to why Ann was at the bottom of the headstone, since she died first one would think that she would be at the top, was this done in that day, or did the hubbie always go first?
Another idea is, if John remarried to Jemima, since he died first from that marriage , (1816), The headstone was done, and then the family decided that Jemima wasn't going there so they put their mother's Ann's inscription on it.
I have found this to be the case in one of my other branches.
Had a look for Jemima's burial under Outram but found nothing.
Could someone please check the following for me in PR for
John Outram married a Susannah Hobson 7 Sep 1802 @ Sutton Cum, Lound, Nottingham
This might be the Susan we are looking for, their son was born 1806,chr at St Mary's, Leicester. John enlisted in the army in 1806 at Nottingham.
Thanks
pcjr
-
Index confirms the marriage, and states that John is from Rotherham.
-
Many thanks for all your help, much appreciated.
pcjr