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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: Miriam_90 on Tuesday 07 May 19 21:25 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I'm hoping I can rely on the boundless wisdom that is Rootschat.
My great-great-grandfather was a Private in the British Army. He enlisted with the 18th Royal Irish between 26th April 1897 and 20th April 1898 (between his marriage to Margaret Carey at Waterford and the birth the birth of his first child). This would have been just before the outbreak of the second boer war. I dont whether he was with the 1st of 2nd battalion. 1st would have sent him to South Africa and the 2nd to India via Malta.
1901:
I can't find the family in the 1901 census, ostensibly because he was stationed abroad. Would his family have been with him? I presume (always dangerous in family history!) that the army would have recorded these people even though they weren't at home? Can this be accessed?
1911:
In 1911 theres another odd one for me (read:headache). There is a census showing Margaret living with her two youngest children. http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Clonmel_East_Urban/River_Street/817463/. A note on the census form says that Michael, head of the family is enumerated on form H, which I believe is a barracks return form. Naturally, I can't find this! I believe the 18th Royal Irish were stationed at Clonmel in 1911.
The census says they have 6 children living of 7. I found the below records:
James 20th April 1898 Waterford, Waterford
William 19th October 1903 ( my great grandad) Fermoy, Cork
Margaret Christina 24th December 1905 Fermoy, Cork
Mary 1st January 1907 Buttevant, Cork
Alice 10th May 1910 Clonmel, Tipperary
I dont know where the three eldest are in 1911 or where there other children are. With the gap between James and William I imagine theres a missing child in there, possibly born abroad? Sadly when William ended up in Dublin ( oh, the family scandal!) the family lost contact with this branch of the family.
Sorry for the block of text. If sombeody can point me in the right direction on any of the above I'd really appreciate it.
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Have you tried just using his Initials?
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I've tried using MW and just W, but there doesn't seem to be a match for a man the right age from the right place. I even tried searching any man the right age who was a soldier but nothing seemed to fit.
The children leave me scratching my head as well. I've tried to search country wide, not just Watercord, Cork and Clonmel.
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The children may not have been in Ireland.
I don't envy you searching for Walsh.
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Where and when was Michael born?
There is a 39yr old M W b Waterford in Barracks in Clonmel.
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Tell me about it! I thought Walsh was bad enough in Dublin nevermind down this way.
I had wondered that about the children but thought it was odd she had the two youngest and not the others. There was never any talk of William leaving the country except as a married man going to England for work and we have his travel permit. He was a good one for stories so it would be odd not to mention it if he was abroad as a child.
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William Walsh 8 yrs +/- 5yrs b County Cork x tick ‘show all information’ to see the ones who are not shown as ‘son’.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nri/
There is one W W 8yrs in the Workhouse.
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Where and when was Michael born?
There is a 39yr old M W b Waterford in Barracks in Clonmel.
October 1869 in Waterford but that would make him 32 in 1901 and 42 in 191. The only MW born Waterford in Clonmel that I can see is a farm labourer but he isn't showing in a barracks. Can you share your link please?
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I would say you have the one. The occupation shown is the one before enlistment.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Clonmel_East_Urban/Davis_Road/817028/
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this search doesn't show him
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I had wondered that about the children but thought it was odd she had the two youngest and not the others. There was never any talk of William leaving the country except as a married man going to England for work and we have his travel permit. He was a good one for stories so it would be odd not to mention it if he was abroad as a child.
I was thinking they might have been visiting relatives. Remember that a census is only a 'snapshot' of who was in the house on that particular night. What date was 1911 census in Ireland? Was it school holidays? One of my child relatives was in Ireland with her grandfather at 1901 census when her mother was in England. The child's GF couldn't read or write and whoever filled in census form wrote a short, phonetic version of her first name and a phonetic version of her surname, which began with a different letter. In addition, the transcription had her GF's age wrong by several decades.
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William Walsh 8 yrs +/- 5yrs b County Cork x tick ‘show all information’ to see the ones who are not shown as ‘son’.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nri/
There is one W W 8yrs in the Workhouse.
There's so little information there I wouldn't be happy saying he is or isn't my William Walsh. Drives me mad when they only used initials on these forms. I might try to dig up workhouse records tomorrow to confirm it one way or the other
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I am not saying he is your William. Why would he be in the Workhouse?
I was just trying to show you possibilities and sympathising re the difficulties.
Where did the family live after Michael left the army?
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Why do people always think of gloom and doom when they see "workhouse" especially in late 1800's. early 1900's...
it was probably a hospital by 1901...
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While I know it could have been a hospital I also know the Cork city workhouse operated well into the early 1920s, which is a horrible thought.
From what I can tell they stayed in Clonmel after he left the army. After partition his regiment was disbanded with the others around July 1922. He then enlisted as a volunteer with the Free State Army and was posted to the 25th Infantry. At the time he gave his address as 20 Quin's Lane.
When William married in May 1928 he gives his father as Michael Walsh, carpenter living in Clonmel.
As there is such a gap between James and William I imagine there was another child there, possibly born while Michael was posted abroad. Does anybody know how those births would have been registered? A barracks is usually considered the land of the occupying army so I assume they would have kept their own records and not just registered the birth locally?
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Is it the correct William and Michael?
Have you got any other children’s marriages?
I am just wondering re the Carpenter occupation.
If there is a chance that Michael was posted to India, Family Search shows these baptisms.
Michael Thomas 1899 - parents Michael and Margaret
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGWL-HLL
Thomas Francis 1902 - parents Michael and Marguerite
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGQ9-NXJ
There is nothing to indicate that these are your family though.
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The parish record for William gives his parents as Michael Walsh and Margaret Carey living in Clonmel so I'm happy I have the correct family. Family anecdotes have Williams wife teasing him that he was either from Cork or Clonmel depending on how GAA was going as he was born in Cork and grew up mostly in Clonmel.
I haven't found any marriages for the other children yet.
As I don't know if Michael was 1st or 2nd Battalion I don't know if he was stationed in South Africa or Malta and India. His enlistment papers are proving difficult to find due to that record set being damaged.
I've tried to use the overseas birth search on ancestry but nothing matches. It's possible those records are connected to the family but I'd need to see the images and hopefully they'd have more info.
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Having compared Michael's children's births with the movements of the 1st and 2nd Bns I believe he was with the 2nd Bn which puts him in India for most of his service.
I'm still trying to find proof of Margaret being with him. I'll be looking to pay and muster records over the next few days. I'm planning a trip to the Dublin LDS centre to view the images of those two little boys born in Mhow. I'll decide from there if they are part of the family. This would bring the children up to 7 altogether as per the 1911 census for Margaret. Sadly this also means either James, Michael Thomas, Thomas Francis (if they are related) or Margaret Christina has to have died before 1911.
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No results for......
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Sadly this also means either James, Michael Thomas, Thomas Francis (if they are related) or Margaret Christina has to have died before 1911.
Have you tried looking for them?
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Death results for james Walsh from 1897 to 1911 http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nrm/
If you know they died Clonmel...select Clonmel from List
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I've looked for James and Margaret Christina death and marriage records Michael Thomas and Thomas Francis had never been on the radar before. The problem is I don't know where they would have died.
Waterford (where the parents were from and James was born)?
Cork (where Michael was stationed and three children born)?
Clonmel (where they ended up living)?
India (where he was stationed)?
The other thing is I have a cousin (other side of the family) who was born, reared and buried in Cork city but died in the central hospital in Galway. So there's another potential.
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So don't put any District in.
Name, Year Range and Tick Deaths
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There is an Army record on Ancestry for this Michael Walsh
It states the details given here that he married Margaret CAREY and enlisted at Clonmel in 1889
He was born in St. John's Parish, Waterford
reg#3306 Royal Irish Rifles
He served from
04.09.1889 to 11.12.1891 at home (UK or Ireland)
12.12.1891 to 14.02.1897 in India
15.02.1897 to 07.09.1898 at home
08.09.1898 to 18.03.1903 in India
19.03.1903 to 11.02.1916 at home; children's births confirm Fermoy, Buttevant and Clonmel
12.02.1916 to 01.04.1919 in India
02.04.1919 to 01.05.1919 at home - discharged
Confirming heywood's records from familysearch.org
Michael Thomas was born in Mhow on Nov 11 1899
Thomas Francis was born there also on Mar 03 1902
which gives you the seven children for the couple as shown in 1911
There is also a reference to the death of Margaret on May 26 1906 although I cannot see a civil record for this
I still cannot see a census record for the four boys in 1911
but this maybe a marriage for Michael Walsh Jnr LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1920/09282/5360980.pdf)
subject to further proof
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Hi myluck,
That's brilliant! I can't find that record myself to add it to my tree. What record set is it under?
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Have you checked Deaths registered in Fermoy, Mallow and Clonmel Districts?
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Had a moment there trying to find it again!
put in MICHAEL for first name, WALSH for last name, 1871 for DoB and wait for it
WORTESFORD for place of birth!
His British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920 is the second reply for me
Needless to say Wortesford was unknown to me before this as a spelling for Waterford!
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Good finds myluck! :)
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Had a moment there trying to find it again!
put in MICHAEL for first name, WALSH for last name, 1871 for DoB and wait for it
WORTESFORD for place of birth!
His British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920 is the second reply for me
Needless to say Wortesford was unknown to me before this as a spelling for Waterford!
Oh, "WORTESFORD". Of course, how silly of me! ;D
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Not sure this link will work or if you need Findmypast - it originated from there
LINK (https://www.nam.ac.uk/soldiers-records/persons?ss=%7B%22q%22:%22walsh%22%7D); you may need an account
Thomas Walsh enlisted in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers on 01.03.1918 aged 16
Regiment # 7075739; father Michael Walsh, RIF Burma
He is shown as born in Buttevant, Co. Cork but this could just be an assumption
Address on discharge: 39 Cashel Road, Clonmel, Co. Tipperary
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https://www.nam.ac.uk/soldiers-records/persons?ss=%7B%22q%22:%22thomas%20walsh%22%7D
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Thanks dathai
That’s the same record. I wasn’t sure my link would work.
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but this maybe a marriage for Michael Walsh Jnr LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1920/09282/5360980.pdf)
subject to further proof
A bit of an interesting connection
The marriage witness for Michael Walsh is William Fitzgerald.
https://www.nam.ac.uk/soldiers-records/persons?ss=%7B%22q%22:%22thomas%20walsh%22%7D
The address here for Thomas Walsh is 39 Cashel Road
1911 shows Fitzgerald family at house no. 39 Cashel Street -including William 12 yrs
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Clonmel_West_Urban/Cashel_Street/817960/
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Guys, you've played a serious blinder on this one! All this information is incredible.
As I said before we lost connection to this part of the family when William ended up in Dublin (another one for the army!). The only link was when one of Williams brothers turned up in Jobstown enroute to Australia offering to take my teenage grandfather with him. Naturally nobody remembers the uncles name!
Its fantastic to have this much info to piece together their story.
Thank you all so much!
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Not sure if you have James Walsh enlistment 15th January 1920
Father Michael, Quinn’s Lane
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nrn/
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Guys, you've played a serious blinder on this one! All this information is incredible.
As I said before we lost connection to this part of the family when William ended up in Dublin (another one for the army!). The only link was when one of Williams brothers turned up in Jobstown enroute to Australia offering to take my teenage grandfather with him. Naturally nobody remembers the uncles name!
Its fantastic to have this much info to piece together their story.
Thank you all so much!
My goodness...your g.father was very young to be a grandfather!
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I've looked for James and Margaret Christina death and marriage records Michael Thomas and Thomas Francis had never been on the radar before. The problem is I don't know where they would have died.
It seems as though you didn’t know of these two boys.
Their births are listed on Michael’s Army Service record - dates and place of birth too.
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I have them now so I'll add them to the research list. All this when I should be studying for finance exams!
With all their childrens names it might make finding death records for Michael and Margaret a bit easier.
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Have you tried adding an E to Walsh surname to make it Walshe.
You might find more marriages and births to add to your tree.
Walsh is more widespread than Walshe.
Jfch