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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Flemming on Sunday 05 May 19 20:25 BST (UK)
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I'd appreciate views on the attached clip from a death certificate in Old Monkland, Lanarkshire, in 1856. It says the father was a soldier in the ?? Regiment Infantry. Can anyone make out what the Regiment is? Many thanks, Flemming.
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35th or 36th Regiment Infantry perhaps?
Imber
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I agree with that.
Viktoria.
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That would be handy, because it would match a prospective death for the father in Dinapore in 1859 who was in the 35th Regiment (they seemed to have dropped like flies that year).
If this is the case, I'd be interested to find out more about the 35th. TNA has some references to soldiers in the regiment, including a soldier joining up in Dublin on 9 December 1842, serving in Mauritius 1843-1848, Ireland 1848-1852, and Burma and India 1854-1866. I wonder how the chap in question found time to get to Scotland to father a child.
TNA also says the regiment was the Royal Sussex, and the records are held in Sussex and also Lichfield. Does this mean it may have had a high number of recruits from these areas, or didn't that count for much given the shuffling around of soldiers and battalions?
I've searched for records for 35th on FindMyPast but there are only two entries for the relevant time period that I can find, but perhaps West Sussex RO may have more info on this.
Thank you both for looking :)
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I suggest it was the 34th who were stationed in Scotland from late August 1856 after the Crimea. Neither 35th or 36th were stationed in Scotland in that year. While of course a soldier of one of those regiments could have been living (and dying) there, I would look also at the 34th.
Have you checked the army deaths register?
MaxD
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Morning Max, thanks for the reply. The chap in question was quite busy in the children department. The first was born in 1854/5 in Scotland (allegedly - there are too many options for this to pull the records on SP) so he must have been around in 1853/4. The second child was born in May 1856 (so he must have been at home in summer/autumn 1855). This child sadly died within months and the mmn was on the death index which is how I came by the entry. A third child was born in Jan 1858, so he must have been home in spring 1857 (this child died in 1859 but haven't got the record for it).
A fourth child was born in 1860-62 and I have wondered if this was really his. Finding a death for him in 1859 in India would cover the first three children but not the fourth, so it would fit that particular theory. His wife was a widow from 1871 at the latest, possibly 1864 at the latest when she conceived a fifth child out of wedlock.
Do you mean the army death register on Ancestry? If so, yes, and there's nothing there. I found the 1859 India burial record on FindMyPast. The two pages had a lot of entries for solidiers from the 35th.
I realise they moved regiments and wonder if it's worth investing in the death entry of the third child to see what it says. The birth entry in 1856 just says 'soldier' so it may not tell me any more than that.
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There are 256 army births in Scotland (FindMyPast) including 1856 which may be worth looking through, if the child/children is/are there that would give the regiment. Easier to look at than SP.
MaxD
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Is that under British Armed Forces And Overseas Births And Baptisms? If so, the children aren't there. I did a 20 year span, varied the surname spelling, removed Scotland... The child was born at Long Row in Dundyvan (mining community) so probably not in barracks and so missed a regimental registration??
I've also wondered if the parents were actually married as I've never found a record for this. The mother was born in Ireland and so he could have met/married her there but still not found a record, and I had her pinned to family who came over from Ireland to Scotland before 1841.
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Yes that is the database.
None of the three regiments in contention can be found in Scotland in all of the years in question. They each have a similar variety of places as you've seen with the 35th. Regular soldiers could get long leaves when overseas after a certain length of service but only a trawl through the regiments' muster rolls would give you that information.
Out of ideas at present I'm afraid, perhaps the death cert as you are thinking.
MaxD
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The plot thickens on this one. It seems the wife had a previous marriage and the first-born may have come from that union, some years before the claimed YOB, which could be why a record for it hasn't been found.
Given the last child may not be his either, this means he only had to be in Scotland in summer/autumn 1855 (for a May 1856 birth) and in spring 1857 (for a Jan 1858 birth) - presuming either/both were actually his.
It had occurred to me that perhaps the wife followed him on manoeuvres in England or Ireland and the children were conceived there but born back in Scotland. She ended up in North East England and I can't see any obvious reason for that (other to be somewhere no-one knew of the multiple partners and various illegitimate offspring).
I'll see if the Sussex RO has muster rolls or other info and save the SP credits for a bit longer!
Thanks again for your interest.
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Good luck!
MaxD
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I gave in and dowloaded the death certificate for Jan 1859. Father a stoneminer. Huh? I presume he left the army or never was a soldier in the first place. I suppose there still may be some record of him in the muster lists, if he was in the regiment. This family is driving me to drink :(
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O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive!
Walter Scott
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A latecomer to your thread sorry but just a thought. My first take on the regiment, looking at the weight of the strokes was the 24th but when I enlarge the image it does look more like a 3....but I prefer 24th i think. :)
If the surname you're researching is Flem(m)ing you should be able to narrow your SP search with one of my indexes here
https://one-name.org/cgi-bin/archive/scottish-birthfrontpage.cgi?study=Fleming&ref=2406
If it's not Fleming, most SP Fleming births to 1869 can be found as baptisms in FamilySearch so same probably applies for other surnames.
PM me you you think I could help further
Ru
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Hi Ru, thanks for the reply. There's been a bit more progress with this one. I asked NRS to check the original death certificate and they believe it's the 25th (King's Own Scottish Borderers). Another Record Office looking just at the scan suggested the 26th (Cameronians). With the latter in particular, I've been advised they were based more at home and in the colonies so more possible for children to have been conceived at that time. It's also been suggested that, during this time period, men volunteered for the Crimea but never actually went to war, then were stood down when it was over - which also would fit with children being conceived and the 'civvie' occupation being recorded on an 1859 death cert.
I've had another look at the on-line records for these two regiments specifically (FindMyPast, TNA) but no luck. Also asked Scottish Museums for some background information, even if they don't actually hold any records.
I'll see what comes of these two regiments first, given they're both Scottish which would fit with the family's location at this time. I've had a quick look at the 24th and this was the South Wales Borderers who seem to have been out of the country a fair bit in the 1850s (fleeing from cannibals on the Andaman Islands in May 1857, apparently) - but another one to add to the list.
Thanks for the link to the Fleming page - this is a different family but will make a note for other research :)
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For what it may be worth, the official Stations of the British Army has:
24th Foot Jan 1855 Bengal, depot at Chatham - Dec 1855 Bengal, depot at Canterbury - Dec 1856 Bengal, depot at Chatham
25th Foot Jan 1855 Madras, depot at Chatham - Dec 1855 Manchester depot not listed - Dec 1856 Manchester, depot not listed.
26th Foot Jan 1855 Canada, depot at Newcastle - Dec 1855 Bermuda, depot at Chatham - Dec 1856 Bermuda, depot at Chatham
Not sure about the advice about the 26th being more at home , not supported by the "Stations" or the regimental history https://archive.org/details/ScottishRifles-DisbandmentProgram/page/n9
History of the 24th here https://archive.org/details/cihm_05694/page/n17
These were not the South Wales Borderers (until post 1881)!!
History of the 25th here https://www.archive.org/stream/lowlandscotsregi00assouoft#page/188/mode/2up
The point made about men volunteering and then not going to the Crimea is perhaps similar to my earlier point that because the cert gives the name of a regiment, it doesn't automatically follow that that the regiment is stationed where the death occurred. Note the depots are all in England and a man could well be stationed with his regimental depot.
MaxD
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24th was South Warwickshire Regiment until 1881. Number looks like 35 or 36 to me. Just to confuse matters further, for the Crimea, there were wholesale transfers of personnel from the rest of the infantry to bring Crimea regiments up to strength. Due to heavy losses by cholera, continuous drafts of replacements were necessary.
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I have added "until post 1881" to my post above.
MaxD
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Thanks for the replies, and that'll teach me to rely on Wiki for info ;)
24th Regiment of Foot - 24th (The 2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot - South Wales Borderers
I'm not familiar with the official Stations of the British Army but, for example, for the 26th, does the entry mean they were in Canada in Jan 1855 with a home depot in Newcastle (presumably 'upon Tyne'); in Bermuda in Dec 1855 with a home depot in Chatham; etc.?
With another army family, I've got the wife moving with the husband - so is it feasible that the children were conceived in England when husband was stationed at a depot, then wife returned to Scotland/family to have the baby?
The fact that he's recorded as stone miner on an 1859 death cert makes me think he emerged from the army unscathed but you never know with family history, do you? ???
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I have added "until post 1881" to my post above.
MaxD
Yes, and I should have read Wiki more carefully...
but was not called the South Wales Borderers until the Childers Reforms of 1881.
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Don't worry Flemming, I've made a few howlers relying on Wiki in the past. It's not a bad starting point, but there are usually other regimental websites available for comparison and correction of Wiki.
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Stations of the army was a monthly War Office listing of which unit was where published in a number of newspapers (I access the FindMyPast selection) and you read the extract correctly.
BUT - this can provide only an overview. Elements of a regiment were not always stationed in the same place and the listing tends only to show the main station. In Jan 1855 for example the depot was about to move from Newcastle to Belfast. Much more detailed research is needed on a regiment month by month to be relatively sure where they all were.
The scenario you posit with the soldier's wife is totally feasible.
I may be wrong but I don't think you have ever posted his name?
MaxD
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He was William Small. I've found ten in the relevant time period on FindMyPast. The closest to 2?th is one in the 20th (found in an invalid depot in Gillingham in 1861 and recorded as 'widow'); and two in the 21st (one has no birth details, the other was discharged in 1882 by which time his wife had been a widow - allegedly - for at least ten years).
To summarise conception dates, child 1 would have been conceived c. August 1855; child 2 c. April 1857; and child 3 (if William was the father) during 1859 or (more likely) 1860. Before all of these, another may have been conceived 1853-4.
His wife was born in Ireland c 1827 and there's a William Small in Old Monkland in 1861 (where she was also living) born 1815/6 Ireland - although there's also one in neighbouring parish New Monkland born 1820/1 Ireland. My money's on the former as he's recorded as an ironstone miner; the latter is a labourer.
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A difficulty is that, assuming he was serving at the time of his death, there will be no pension record for him and any other documents would have been thrown away. The army didn't keep records for men who died in service.
You've already seen that there is no Crimea medal entry for a William Small in any of the 5 (or is it 6) possible interpretations of the regiment.
Where he will appear is some where in the muster books and pay lists of whichever regiment he was with. Again, IF he was serving when he died then there would be an entry in the relevant quarter of 1856 and, if found, he could be back tracked to other relevant dates.
Taking 24th Foot as an example, there are two muster books covering 1856 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C150227/cnext/C150227/C2463925
There will be similar documents for each of the other possibles.
Needs a researcher to visit Kew and go through each of them. Otherwise it is needle in haystack time except we can't find the haystack!
MaxD
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Needs a researcher to visit Kew and go through each of them. Otherwise it is needle in haystack time except we can't find the haystack!
True, and I don't feel there's enough certainty yet to pay for a researcher. I'll search again for the family in 1861, and also see if I can find a civil death registration for William. I just have a feeling he survived a short stint in the army and need to (at least try) ruling it in or out.
Thanks again for the help and interest.
BW
Flemming