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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: atworthy on Saturday 04 May 19 02:02 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Just wondering if anyone can help me with my 3rd great grandparents, Henry LLOYD the son of John LLOYD and Charlotte Hetty CHIPPS baptised 1798 Westminster and Caroline Jane BESSELL born about 1805/1811 daughter of Charles BESSELL who he married in 1822 Paddington.
I have them both in the 1851 Census (2 Carlton Place, St James) and Caroline with two of their children at the same address in 1841. In 1857 they left England for Geelong, Australia. Henry appears in the electoral rolls from 1839 to 1851 at 2 Carlton Place, but to date can't find him in the 1841 Census.
On Caroline's death certificate her father is listed as Charles and mother's details are unknown. There are family trees online which suggest her parents are Charles BESSELL and Jane MOWBRAY but I have not found this marriage or any other evidence to support this line. Any information that can help me with this line, I would truly appreciate.
If anyone has any suggestions on how I can also find out more about the glove manufacturing business, I would also really appreciate it. His father, John LLOYD was also listed as a glover.
Thanks for reading :)
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Hello
I don't know what you have so forgive me if I duplicate anything.
Henry Lloyd and Caroline Jane Bessell married at St James Paddington 27.5.1822 bach and spinster by banns.
Both signed and there is no mention of Caroline being under age.
Witnesses William Long and Eliza Lloyd who again both signed.
The 1851 census gives her birth as 1806 Mill Hill Middlesex.
She was baptised at St Mary Hendon 15 June 1805 d of Charles and Jane Bessell born April (8th?)
Her Victoria death registration in 1878 confirms her father as Charlie.
She is 50 when she and Henry age 58 ,gentleman leave for Australia on the 6 th Oct 1856 with their two children on the Stuart Wartley. This would fit with the baptism.(The transcription is indexed as Catherine Jane LLoyd on Ancestry).
No sign of a marriage for Charles and Jane.
For the children of Henry and Caroline Jane there are the following christenings
Caroline Eliza 5 May /1 June 1823 St James Westminster Carlton St Glover
Charlotte 25 th Mar 1825 born 25 Feb St James Westminster Carlton St glover
Charles 12 Nov 1826 born 15th ? same
Emma Mary Ann Feb 26 bapt 24 Aug 1828 same
Julia Leonora born 5 Feb bapt 27 May 1830
Eliza 12 Feb /25 Mar 1832 St James Westminster Carlton St glover
Jane LLoyd 1 Feb 1834/11 May 1834 St James Westminster
Annette born 9 Jan /16 Feb 1836 Carlton st/Regent St glover buried 27 Jan 1837
Henry John 1 Feb 1838 born 23 Dec 1837 buried 15 June 1846
Alfred George LLoyd 3 May 1840/3 June 1840 St James Westminster buried 20 July 1842
Elinor Bessell 27 Oct 1842 bapt 27 Nov 1842 buried 9 Jan 1844
Edith Anne 19 Feb/16 Mar 1845 same
Miriam Eliza 10 Cot 1847/16 Jan 1847
I'll see what else i can find.
Ciderdrinker
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Hi
Possible stuff on Charles Bessell ,the only one I can see in the London area.
Bapt St Martin in the Fields 25.2./11.3.1767 s of John and Frances
Promoted to Tower Hill militia 25.5.1814 Gentleman
burial 27.5.1845 St Luke Chelsa of Peckham Rye Lane born 1767
His PCC Will 1854 leaves everything to wife Rosina who he married in 15.10.1839 at St Mary Woolworth.Unfortunately the details are not online .She was a Miss Southton.
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There is a Charles George Mowbery Bessell s of George and Martha nee Jacobs born c 1820 .Father George was baptised St Margaret Westminster 29 Apr 1797/17 Aug 1797 s of Charles and Jane Bessell.
This would fit as a brother of Caroline Jane.
Other siblings Charles 3 Dec 1793/bapt 26 Mar 1794
Like you I can't see a marriage for Charles and Jane.
Ciderdrinker
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Thank you so much for all that information ciderdrinker.
I had all the details of their children, but I didn't have Ellinor Bessell Lloyd 1842. It now makes me wonder whether the Elinor Frost aged 30 in the 1841 Census living with Caroline at 2 Carlton Street may be a sister to Caroline Jane Bessell??? There was also a George French? aged 9 living with them at the time too.
For those interested, I do have further information on their children, as added below after the **.
It's the Bessell ancestors and siblings I am really struggling with.
Caroline Eliza 5 May /1 June 1823 ** buried 13 March 1831 St Luke Chelsea
Charlotte 25 th Mar 1825 born 25 Feb ** died 5 December 1914 Geelong m William Roberts BATTEN
Charles 12 Nov 1826 born 15th Oct ** Died before 1882
Emma Mary Ann ** 24 July 1828 bapt 21 Aug 1828 buried 26 December 1852 Kensal Green
Julia Leonora born 5 Feb bapt 27 May 1830** buried 23 February 1832 Chelsea
Eliza 12 Feb /25 Mar 1832 St James
Jane LLoyd 1 Feb 1834/11 May 1834 ** died 19th July 1868 m THOMAS BATTEN
Annette born 9 Jan /16 Feb 1836 Carlton st/Regent St glover buried 27 Jan 1837
Henry John 1 Feb 1838 born 27 Dec 1837 ** died 12 Jan 1882 Castlemaine m Janet CORBETT
Alfred George LLoyd ** 7 May 1840/3 June 1840 St James Westminster buried 20 July 1842
Elinor Bessell 27 Oct 1842 bapt 27 Nov 1842 buried 9 Jan 1844
Edith Anne 19 Feb/16 Mar 1845 ** Died 5 May 1916 Victoria m Thomas Brown HILL
Miriam Eliza **10 Dec 1847 bap 16 Jan 1848 died 24 Jan 1934 Geelong. After sister's death married Thomas BATTEN in Adelaide and returmed to Geelong (my ancestors).
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Hello me again
There is a possible marriage for Charles Bessell junior in 13.7.1819 to Frances Edwards at St George the Maytr Camden.
wit Edward Corbett Bessell and Jane Bessell
Edward Corbett Bessell bpt Mitcham 12.3.1800 as Beswell s of Charles.
Ciderdrinker
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Thanks again ciderdrinker. I must have been replying to your first one while you added your next reply.
I'm now curious to find out more about the Tower Hill militia. I have a drawing/photo of someone I was led to believe was Captain Charles Bessell - Caroline's father. Have never been able to verify it though - was just in the family scrapbook unlabeled.
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Well, if the other family trees are right, Charles Bessell and Jane Mowbray had the following children:
George 1797 Westminster
John 1799
Bowen 1802 d 1804 Mitcham, Surrey
Mowbray 1803 Mitcham, Surrey
Caroline Jane 1805 Mill Hill
Hulme 1807 Bishops Hull, Essex
Mary Ann 1810 Kensington
plus your Edward Corbett Bessell
living in Melbourne, I'm not sure if this is one family or a mix as I don't know the geography of England that well.
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Just bumping up my original query to see if anyone can help me with my Lloyd family.
In particular I am trying to find anything about their glove manufacturing business but I don't know where to start.
John Lloyd (my 4th g grandfather) married Charlotte Hetty Chipps (1768-1837) 12 Feb 1793 St Dunstan's in the West. In 1841 he was living in Charles Street. The 1846 burial index had him residing at 5 Charles Street. Both buried at St Luke's Church, Chelsea. He was a glove manufacturer. I have not been able to determine his birth date or parents.
His son was Henry Lloyd who married Caroline Jane Bessell - info in previous posts.
They had a brother John Lloyd (1808-1889) who was a hosier. I have found a reference to him going bankrupt, before he also came out to Victoria, Australia in 1853.
If anyone can help me find John Lloyd's birth/parents or anything on the glove manufacturing business, I would be most grateful. TIA.
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Hi
His burial gives a birth year of 1767 if that helps Burried 20.7.1846 of Charles St
possible baptism at Chelsea to Joseph And Ann LLoyd 3.4.1768
Ciderdrinker
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John Lloyd (my 4th g grandfather) married Charlotte Hetty Chipps (1768-1837) 12 Feb 1793 St Dunstan's in the West. In 1841 he was living in Charles Street. The 1846 burial index had him residing at 5 Charles Street. Both buried at St Luke's Church, Chelsea. He was a glove manufacturer. I have not been able to determine his birth date or parents.
May I just ask where you got the information that John was a glove manufacturer? There is an article in the London Morning Herald (21 Oct 1817) which mentions a 'John Lloyd of No. 5 Charles Street, Queen's Elms' but his occupation is given as 'plumber.' No other details provided; he was a witness in a court case.
Queenie :)
Edit: If John Lloyd was a glove manufacturer, then the burial in 1846 might be a different man. Unless there are 2 different Charles Streets in London?
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Have you access to the newspapers.
This from the OCR. (My screen shot is too large to attach)
AT a MEETING of the MANUFACTURERS of KID _ and other LEATHER GLOVES, held at the Crown and Anchor Tavern, Dec. 9, 5831, HENRY LLOYD in the Chair, Resolved unanimously,—That this Meeting has viewed for a long time past with the most serious alarm the c
14 December 1831 - Morning Herald (London)
It also mentions Mr Lloyd snr.
Added
However a follow up piece
At a Meeting of the London Glove Manufacturers, con- vened at the Baptist's Head Coffee House, on Monday, 26th March, 18J_, for the purpose of receiving a Report from the Committee appointed to watch over proceedings in Parliament relative
31 March 1832 - Morning Post - London, London, England
Has Henry Lloyd (the chairman) as Henry junior.
So is there another Henry Lloyd a glove manufacturer?
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John Lloyd's occupation as glove manufacturer was on Henry Lloyd's death certificate, which of course, could just be heresay, but that's where I got it from. In 1841, his occupation is just listed as Independant.
I believe it was 5 Charles Street they were living, as his wife, Charlotte Hetty Chipps who died in 1837, also has her abode as 5 Charles Street. The 1841 Census has him at 5 Charles Street with his daughter Caroline, and then the 1846 burial has the abode as 5 Charles Street.
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Have you access to the newspapers.
AT a MEETING of the MANUFACTURERS of KID _ and other LEATHER GLOVES, held at the Crown and Anchor Tavern, Dec. 9, 5831, HENRY LLOYD in the Chair, Resolved unanimously,—That this Meeting has viewed for a long time past with the most serious alarm the c
14 December 1831 - Morning Herald (London)
It also mentions Mr Lloyd snr.
Added
However a follow up piece ... Has Henry Lloyd (the chairman) as Henry junior.
So is there another Henry Lloyd a glove manufacturer?
Thank you - I was able to access both articles.
All the references I have found for a Henry Lloyd, glover - link to my 3g grandfather, but it's certainly possible.
I tried looking up his address 2 Carlton Place, and found this reference to him being a Wholesale London Agent so I'm even more confused now.
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Edit: If John Lloyd was a glove manufacturer, then the burial in 1846 might be a different man. Unless there are 2 different Charles Streets in London?
I don't know London at all, but the daughter of John Lloyd (sister to Henry Lloyd), Eliza Alice Woof Lloyd was still living at 5 Charles Street in 1878.
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Henry Lloyd glover, hosier, haberdasher & linen draper of 13 Old Bond Street took out insurance from 1823 -1833
There is a John Lloyd in 1837 of 1a Wimpole street, Cavendish Square , hosier & glover also taking out insurance.
See The National Archives or London Metropolitan Archives
Also at TNA an H.Lloyd Hosier & Glover appears in a list “ Bills from London tradesmen for goods and services supplied to George, 3rd Earl of Egremon”
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Hello
There was Will for John LLoyd who died 1846
John Llloyd of Charles St Chelsea Middlesex glover
Wife Charlotte and son in law James Jones the house and premises in which he lives Charles St including furniture. in Trust .The Survivor will get to decide what happens after the first one's demise.The wife to enjoy the use of the house and furniture for life.
After her death the furniture to be sold and the proceeds to be directed by my Trustee the same as my other house.
Son Henry LLoyd to get the glove business and Goodwill subject to him agreeing to a fair valuation by 2 disinterested parties.
He owns another house in Charles St which goes to the same Charlotte and James Jones in trust to receive the rents until the youngest children are 21 .It shall then be sold
The resulting money to be divided equally amongst wife Charlotte and the children share and share alike.If any die in the meantime their share to go to their Executors and Heirs or if no heirs to their siblings .
The rest of the estate to be invested to provide dividends to maintain the children until 21 Then the money goes to the children under the same terms.
The Executors can reimburse themselves for their expenses.Exec James Jones and Charlotte LLoyd
Made 19th September 1845.Made at 26 Charles St
Estate £4000. 31st July 1846.
It very much looks like the right Family.
His burial says no 5 Charles St and cost £15 9s.The third most expensive of the 25 on the page.
A Poll Book from 1838 gives him at no5 Charles st freehold house
He is there from 1801 on the London tax lists.
If John was not trained by his father or came from a Workhouse their should be a tax record of his apprenticeship. I can't see one.
So it looks like business was in the family
Ciderdrinker
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Thank you mckha489!
Henry and John Lloyd were brothers. Both ended up leaving London for Victoria, Australia - Henry to Geelong and John to Melbourne.
I'll have to look into The National Archives website - I haven't delved into that one yet.
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Wow!! Thank you so much ciderdrinker!!
May I ask where you found this. To date I just have subscriptions to ancestry and find my past - but neither have come up with his will.
I did find this in the Morning Herald (London) 21 August 1843 - would this be the same address?
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May I just ask where you got the information that John was a glove manufacturer? There is an article in the London Morning Herald (21 Oct 1817) which mentions a 'John Lloyd of No. 5 Charles Street, Queen's Elms' but his occupation is given as 'plumber.' No other details provided; he was a witness in a court case.
Just noticed John Lloyd's wife, Charlotte, has her place of abode on the burial register as Charles Street, Queens Elm in 1837.
Seems John Lloyd may have indeed been a plumber in 1817 before he became a glover...
If I'm not pushing my luck, can anyone help me with his parents?? I'm curious why one of his daughters is called Alice Eliza Woof Lloyd. Could this be a reference to a maternal ancestor? Another daughter was Caroline Chipps Lloyd (her mother's maiden name).
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Hi
The Will is under London Wills and probate on Ancestry
https://www.ancestrylibraryedition.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/350998:1704?_phsrc=vtg163&_phstart=successSource&gsfn=john&gsln=lloyd&ml_rpos=1&queryId=b4e78402333d72cdb6db8428f42eb082
John Lloyd
Probate Date: 31 Jul 1846
Parish: St Luke Chelsea
County: Middlesex
Hope that gets him for you
Ciderdrinker
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If I'm not pushing my luck, can anyone help me with his parents?? I'm curious why one of his daughters is called Alice Eliza Woof Lloyd. Could this be a reference to a maternal ancestor? Another daughter was Caroline Chipps Lloyd (her mother's maiden name).
Could you please list the names of all his children, as it might help us research (that being dependent on whether John & Charlotte followed traditional naming patterns).
I also just want to note that on the 1841 census, John's return says that he was not born in county, so we are looking for a birth outside of Middlesex.
Queenie :)
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Could you please list the names of all his children, as it might help us research (that being dependent on whether John & Charlotte followed traditional naming patterns).
I also just want to note that on the 1841 census, John's return says that he was not born in county, so we are looking for a birth outside of Middlesex.
Queenie :)
John and Charlotte had the following children:
William John Lloyd born 26 Jan 1795 Westminster possibly died 1807 Margate, Kent??
Charlotte Lloyd born 6 Aug 1796 Westminster died?
Henry Lloyd bap 30 Sep 1798 St James Westminster m Caroline Jane Bessell 27 May 1822 died 18 Mar 1867 Geelong, Victoria
Mary Ann Lloyd born 23 May 1800 married James Jones 13 Jul 1817 died 1864 London
Eliza Alice Woof Lloyd bap 10 Jan 1804 St Luke Chelsea died 30 Dec 1878 Chelsea
Leonara Lloyd bap 8 Dec 1805 St Luke Chelsea died 1874 Chelsea
John Lloyd born 23 Jan 1808 Chelsea m Caroline Deacon 5 Nov 1830 died 25 April 1889 Richmond, Victoria
Caroline Chipps Lloyd bap 13 Feb 1811 died 1874 Wandsworth
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Hi
Not having a lot of luck with John's parents
The couple were married at St Dunston in the West but as you know that was her parish.Her parents William and Elizabeth Chipps nee Wright coachmaker.
The witnesses don't help either -Giles Hanwell junior draper Chancery Lane 1762-1818 and Mary Harbottle born 1764 St Dunstan in the West d of John and Mary Harbottle cordwainer.
The first few children are baptised at St Annes Soho but LLoyd is a common name
I'd try and track down the Archives of the Glovers Guild and see if they can help with an apprenticeship etc which should give a father and location for his birth.
I did find a James LLoyd glover Paternoster Row 1802 ,Edward LLoyd glover PCC Will 1769 and John glover St Lukes Chelsea taking on apprentices 1735-42.
But that's not a lot of help
Ciderdrinker
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Thank you ciderdrinker, I sincerely appreciate all your help.
I wish I lived in England so I could do some research in person lol. It appears a lot of the records are still not online.
Anyway, I've sent off a couple of emails, so we'll see how that goes. Regardless, I've found out a lot more on this family in the last few days thanks to people like yourself on this wonderful site.
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Hello. Henry Lloyd and Caroline are also my 3rd great grandparents and I was interested to read the information in this thread. Can you please confirm if you are still active on this site?