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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: buckyb on Saturday 27 April 19 05:32 BST (UK)
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Hi All
Just a short question that I haven't found an answer to on the internet.
Could assigned convicts be temporarily lent to other settlers in the same or another district?
Any help would be most appreciated.
Rod
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Right, are you asking about convicts in W.A. or in N.S.W. or in Tas? there are real differences between W.A. and the other colonies ... different era, different purpose, different rules.
I have some knowledge of NSW, not much on Tas. I have been chided on RChat re my comments about W.A. convictism researching.
But, :D :D :D Are you asking if there's records kept of instances of for example where farmer Joe lent one of his convicts who had shearing skills to his neighbour Pete to help out with the sheep shearing on Pete's farm? (and/or vice versa) - Both Joe and Pete were settlers in the same district. ? ? ?
As far as I am aware if NSW (so in the era 1788 to 1840) : No need to document any sharing, so long as the convict had his Ticket of Leave documentation on his person at all times, it allowed him to remain in the district. Of course, it would depend on the Police Magistrate issuing the ToL, and on the Settlers co-operating.
JM ADD
NSW https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/convicts-guide
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Thanks JM
This might be a little more complicated than I thought.
I had better outline what I am looking at, it is all in NSW.
I am trying to follow the trail of William Armstrong born 1793 in Dublin and arrived in Australia on 31 Aug 1835 as a convict on the ship "Hero". William was given a life sentence.
He was assigned to the surveyor William Wedge Darke in Sydney shortly after arriving. William Darke married in 1838 and moved to Victoria in 1839. At some point he was reassigned to Lt Col James Morriset who was appointed Police Magistrate to Bathurst in 1838, so he then assumedly moved to Bathurst.
On 19 Nov 1845 he was granted a TOL, this seems to be in accordance with the rule that a "lifer" was entitled to apply after 10 years service with 2 masters.
The problem I have is that he was confined to the District of Windsor, this was then altered to Bathurst on 9 January 1846. I can find no connection to Windsor with either of the two masters, thus I was looking to see whether he had been temporarily lent out to a friend or other connection of Darke or Morriset.
Perhaps an error was made on the original TOL document by stating Windsor instead of Bathurst. Or perhaps Morriset being the Police Magistrate in Bathurst had a neighbouring Magistrate issue the certificate to avoid any conflict of interest.
Your thoughts and input are most appreciated.
Regards
Rod ???
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Is this your chap charged with murder in 1843 at the property of Col Morriset?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/37116573
Sue
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Hi Sue
Thanks for your input.
Yes, that is the right chap. He was given a good character reference by James Morriset and only finished up with a sentence of 24 hours jail.
Rod
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Some info, that may or may not be significant
:) a Surveyor moving to Port Phillip District in 1839 would be a movement within the colony of NSW, as Victoria was not hived off until 1851. If the surveyor had trained up a team of convicts to help with the physical aspects of surveying land for say a new settlement at say Melbourne (a definite possible in 1839) your chap may well have moved with the surveyor and the paperwork may have been left aside because :
;) Transportation to NSW effectively ceased in 1840, and there were anti transportation leagues pushing for no more convicts,
:) Police Magistrates were responsible for law and order and presided over what we would now recognise as Local Courts (not the District Courts, the one level below that, so 'Petty Sessions') It was more an administrative role and some PMs were completely untrained in legal matters.
I can find your chap listed at NSW Archives Convict Index, and that ONLY has the ToL for Windsor, in 1845. (45/2120) Where do you find the other info you have provided about William Armstrong?
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/convicts-index
If I recall correctly Morriset came as part of the 48th Regiment (I have ancestors in that reg) and he had a checked career - big on discipline ... ended up bankrupt from memory...
Who signed off on the 1845 ToL ?
JM
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So when did he get assigned to Morriset? what documentation? :D
JM
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:)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12888672 DARKE back in Sydney 1845-6
(bankrupty in Melbourne 1842, .... many went bankrupt in that year/s due to economic downturn, no cheap labour -convictism ceased, and the government increased the setup price for land ... to help the private enterprise arrangements in the new colony in South Australia ... an outcome recommended under the Molesworth Royal Commission in England.)
JM
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Thanks JM for the info
According to NSW BDM William Armstrong fathered 4 children in the period 1837 to 1845 ie Cecilia, Elizabeth, Robert and John. The first Cecilia could be a bit doubtful. All were born at Kelso, Bathurst, the address of James Morriset.
William Armstrong was charged for manslaughter in March 1843, after his trial the SMH published an article on 4 Apr stating "It appeared that both the prisoner and the deceased were in the service of Colonel Morrissett, Police Commissioner at Bathurst."
Given that William was in Kelso from around the time that Morrisett went to Bathurst and that he was in his service in 1842 when the crime took place, I think it is a reasonable assumption that he was assigned to Morriset. To obtain his first and only ticket of leave after 10 years in the colony he was required to have served under two masters.
His TOL was not signed off by anyone, there are two hand written notations on the record viz. "Granted on recommendation of Mr Darke a Surveyor" and "Altered to Bathurst 9 January 1846 on letter 45/11645". At this stage I haven't been able to access the letter 45/11645.
Rod
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Are you certain that your chap was assigned to DARKE back at the beginning .... What info matches up those baptisms to the chap on the Hero? Is it possible there was more than one chap by that name?
JM
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Are you looking at the actual ticket of leave or at the BUTT that would likely be a digitised image and available via subscription commercial family history websites...
It is my understanding that TofL was for good conduct and a lifer could get be awarded such after 10 to 12 years, with the same master .... the Superintendent of Convicts did not need the convict to actually apply for it .... and by the 1840s, convictism was not the way forward for NSW ....
JM
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I am looking at an index entry for a Certificate of Freedom
45/2120
William ARMSTRONG
Arrived 31 August 1835, per the Hero to Sydney
Age 43 years, Reads and Writes, Protestant
Married, 2 male children, 1 Female child
Born Dublin, Ireland
Shoemaker
Trial 29 August 1832 at Dublin City for Stealing Boots, no previous convictions, Sentenced to Life.
5ft 8 inches tall, dark complexion, sallow and pockpitted. Brown Hair, Light Hazel Eyes.
I have not seen the actual CF. I realise this is the same reference number as the ToL :) Nope, I don't know the how/when/where/what/why of that particular index entry. I have phoned a friend ... I will post their comments when I receive them.... ;D I left a message on their machine.
JM
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Also, have you investigated the following ... I spotted this from my armchair look through NSW Archives keyname search option ;D
NSW Archives
Surveyor General – Letters
Reel 3052,
William ARMSTRONG, 10 January 1851-31 December 1855,
Bowenfels, Mudgee, O’Connell Plains, Rylstone.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/search_form?id=35 from NSW Archives : These are letters received from surveyors, mostly relating to matters such as the survey description of farms, reserves, churches, schools, rivers and mountain ranges, or forwarding tracings and plans of these after survey.
I am familiar with the Bathurst district, and Bowenfels and Mudgee ... and I am a drafter, so I know about tracings and plans ... I am also fairly sure there was at least two chaps named William Armstrong in the 'Macquarie' area in the 1840s and 1850s :) Until your enquiry I did not realise that the second one (the one who did 24 hours) had any survey experience at all, but I am 'over the moon' to now know that both the Wm Armstrong chaps would know what a 'chain' is and know a theolodyte ...
JM
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Thanks JM
The surveyors letter was a great find. thanks very much.
I have taken the assignment to William Wedge Darke from a story written by John Armstrong on the members.iinet site (Convicts to Australia). The article seems to be well researched and I have assumed he has evidence of the assignment. The assignment is further collaborated by the surveyors letter you found and the endorsement on his TOL.
I am sure that the children mentioned are the children of William Armstrong and Eleanor Hall (Jobling). William's burial certificate puts him on the Hero, he is also mentioned on the children's marrriage and death certificates and in many family trees. DNA evidence would also seem to back up the family line.There could well be other William Armstrong s in the district but I am sure the one I refer to is from the "Hero".
The TOL information I refer to is from the digital butts put out by Ancestry.
Having regard to the information, I would welcome and value your opinion as to whether or not you think that William Armstrong from the "Hero" was in the Windsor District at or before the time the TOL was issued.
Once again many thanks for your time and input in this matter.
Rod
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I have had a return call from my friend. They have checked, and they know that the transcription index I used was made in Excel, and perhaps CF instead of TL is simply a data entry error. BUT they also mentioned something for you to consider:
If you look at the images uploaded to Ancestry for the Ticket of Leave Butts, perhaps you could look at the ones just before and just after your William ARMSTRONG’s one.
Look for the letter reference 45/10446 and the mention of Surveyor and notice that DARKE, Surveyor and also another Surveyor are mentioned, and that the Administrative officers must have been very busy on 19 November 1845….
45/2051 starts the sequence on 19 November (image 117 of 904)
45/2111 mentions Dark, (180/904) Yass bench
45/2112 , Darke, Surveyor (181/904) Queanbeyan bench
45/2113, Darke Surveyor 182, Wollongong Bench
45/2114, a different Surveyor but letter 45/10446 reference, Yass bench
And so on including YOUR chap, and after him too ….
45/3229, Darke, As. Surv’r (Assistant Surveyor) 188/904, Berrima Bench
45/2120, Darke Surveyor, …… 189/904, on recommendation of Windsor Bench
45/2121, Darke, 190/904, Berrima bench
I think last one in that sequence is : 45/2127, 19 November, Darke, 196/904, Campbelltown Bench,
So, perhaps ‘Windsor’ is simply an ADMINISTRATIVE ERROR at H.Q., processing a bulk issue of Tickets of leave in the post penal era, (when admin staff were being stood down, or re-assigned away from convict admin) rather than any actual active intervention by Morrisset or Darke or even Armstrong. All that paperwork that needed to be handwritten onto forms, using quill and real ink.
And, they also mentioned that Cecilia could not possibly be the actual daughter of William, but he may well have been the father figure in her life.
JM
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/228065858 29 Nov 1845 Cumberland Times
'there is not a Clerk in the office of the Principal Superintendent of Convicts, that we know of, whom we could consciously assert he merits the wages which the public pay him. Without the necessary talent and industry we consider it a scandalous abuse of public trust, a flagrant waste of public money; to employ persons of such mean asquariements, and naturally indolent habits, as now disgrace the office .....
JM ;D ;D ;D A number of my male ancestors were Clerks in the NSW admin (Treasury) in that decade. :D And I am a direct descendant of one of the private Surveyors, ::) ::) ::)
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Many thanks JM, you have been a great help and I think I now have a better understanding of the situation.
The series of entries on 19th November is very intriguing, could be that both surveyors Labatt and Darke worked together and were looking for workers. As you pointed out the convicts did not necessarily have to apply for the TOL. Labatt and Darke may have checked through their ex workers and endeavoured to free them for employment. Pure speculation of course but I guess that's another story.
I agree with you on Cecilia, I'm sure William was not her biological father but I am sure that he did in fact raise her until his death in 1849.
Once again thanks for your help and I will leave this post open as someone might be able to add something down the track.
Rod :)
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Your Wm ARMSTRONGs per Hero has been claimed twice / possible cousins ? . See
http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/claimaconvict/surname.php?letter=A
Bye
Emilypos NSW
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Thanks Emily
I am not familiar with the site. The two claimants are probable related to me but I'm not sure how to find their details.
Rod :-\
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Hi Rod,
Its been around for quite a long time . If you click on the URL and then Armstrong William it will take you to the 2 claims . Click on these, them the site moderator will notify them of you .
Bye
Emilypos
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Thanks Em
Rod