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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: Susan Smith on Friday 26 April 19 12:34 BST (UK)
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Hi, sorry need help again. I want to find any info on George Smith. George married Eliza in 1877, think he may of had a brother William. Sur
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With a name like Smith you probably need the marriage to find the name/occupation of his father and see if any witness names might be helpful.
Where was he born? Presume you have him on census after marriage.
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Have you looked for him on censuses prior to his marriage? You gave no info re his birthplace which is shown as East Dereham on the 1881 entry. With a surname like Smith you need to include all info.
Censuses are free to search yourself on www.familysearch.org - there is one 1861 entry b East Dereham but as Milliepede says - you need the marriage cert unless you have info you have not included here
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I looked at the East Dereham one too and there is a possible marriage in 1877 but not to an Eliza Hogg so where did the Hogg come from please?
Mildred May Smith born Sep 1878 Mitford has mothers maiden name Draper - is Mildred in the right family.
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George Smith full age Labourer, East Dereham, father James Smith, labourer
Eliza Draper minor. East Dereham , father Richard Draper, labourer
Married 11 feb 1877
Both marked,
Witnesses William and Susanna. Something like Gathercole. Both marked
Image is on Ancestry,
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Eliza Hogg and George Smith are on the same page of marriages, Dec qtr 1877 Norwich 4b 370. Also John Broughton and Augusta Bailey. But that doesn’t tell you who married whom on that page.
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ELIZA
Last name
HOGG
Marriage quarter
4
Marriage year
1877
Registration month
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ELIZA HOGG married one of these people
John Broughton, George Smith
District
Norwich
District number
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County
Norfolk
Country
England
Volume
4B
Volume as transcribed
4B
Page number
370
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Well there is an Augusta Broughton with husband John in 1881.
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Smith mmn Hogg children born in Norwich (not necessarily siblings):
Joseph Frederick, Mar qtr 1878
Sarah Ann Eliza, Mar qtr 1878
Isaac William, Dec qtr 1879
Harriett Beatrice, Mar qtr 1882
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Thank you so much people,. Yes it is George and Eliza 1877 Norwich I have a couple of birth cerrs for the children mother Eliza Hogg father George Smith.
What I am trying to find is more information on George at mo. What is strange I found Eliza in the census for 1881 with the children and a William Smith I have a feeling William could be George's brother but that is not stated and he is not the children's father. Thank you again.
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I see that “William” and Eliza have children Emily 3 and Isaac 2 with them in 1881. I don’t know why you say he is not the children’s father - they are enumerated as his daughter and son. So either this is not the same family as George Smith & Eliza Hogg, or it is and George is the same person as William, or the children are in fact (formally or informally) stepchildren of William.
Which children do you have birth certificates for?
Have you found the family (or any of them) in 1891?
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I think Eliza has remarried by 1891 to Charles Codlin(g) - or got together with him at least.
She’s with him as Eliza Codlin, plus Smith children Sarah 13, Isaac 11, Harriet 9.
Therefore the child “Emily”, 3 in 1881 (oddly) looks likely to be the same child as Sarah Eliza Ann b 1878.
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It all goes wrong for them in the 1890s, doesn’t it?
Codling/Hogg children are born:
Rachel Elizabeth, Jun qtr 1891
Ethel, Sep qtr 1893
Charles, Jun qtr 1895
Eliza, Jun qtr 1898
But they’re dispersed in institutions by 1901. Poss death of Eliza aged 39 at the time baby Eliza was born.
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Eliza’s marital history:
Eliza Hogg to George Smith, Dec qtr 1877 Norwich
Eliza Smith to Robert Spauls, Jun qtr 1885 Norwich
Eliza Spauls to Charles Codling, Dec qtr 1890 Norwich
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Avm228 I have Isaacs and Harriets birth Certs father definitely George.
Yes she remarried twice infant the last was indeed Charles Codling, hubbies Great Grandfather on his mothers side.
I wanted to try and find out more about George as he is not on 1881 census and William and George not same person as difference birth years.
Yes sad as think Eliza must of died in child birth or soon after and her husband Charles died not long before the last child was born, hubbies Gran was Nellie (Eliza) codling and she was taken in by Bartons, she then ended up in East Ham, Essex.
Many thanks. Sue
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Difference in birth years - how do you know what George’s birth year was?
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Charles Codling died in the asylum, I think - 6 November 1897.
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AVM228 I did find a birth for George Smith 1858 Norwich, but obviously Smith is a very common name, I also found a census with a George and William on it but need to revisit that, do not think William is George.
Many thanks for your help, Sue
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I agree that William doesn’t look likely to be the same person as George but only because William is a coal porter in 1881 and George was a cabinet maker on Isaac’s birth certificate.
There’s nothing reliable known as to George’s age or origins unless and until you get the marriage cert.
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But hang on - you have Harriett’s birth certificate which comes after the 1881 census, so Eliza hadn’t moved on from George to a new man if George was named as father (provided that was truthful, which it may not have been).
What was the paternal occupation on that certificate?
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I agree that William doesn’t look likely to be the same person as George but only because
William is a coal porter in 1881 and
George was a cabinet maker on Isaac’s birth certificate.
Is this a possibility for George Smith on 1871 census?
1871c
Julian Back Street Victoria Buildings, Heigham, Norwich, Norfolk
William Caston Head 1834 Norwich Norfolk
Sarah Ann Caston Wife 1833
William Caston Son 1859
Henry Caston Son 1862
Alfred Caston Son 1865
Edward Caston Son 1868
Isaac Caston Son 1871
George SMITH Lodger 1851 pob ditto occ Cabinet Maker
I wondered about these siblings William & George SMITH together on the 1861 census living
Heigham but not sure as it looks as if this William Smith married Eliza VARVELL and
they are together with dau Eliza on 1871/1881/1891 census William's occ Sawyer.
Matthew Smith Head 1821 Norwich, Norfolk, Sawyer
Henrietta Smith Wife 1831 Ipswich, Suffolk
William Smith Son 1846 Norwich, Norfolk
Susan Smith Daughter 1841 Norwich, Norfolk
George Smith Son 1851 Norwich, Norfolk,
Robert Smith Son 1860
Susan Smith Baptism 9 May 1841 Norfolk Father: Matthew Smith Mother: Susan
Marriage 24 Sep 1838 Norwich, St Clement and St Edmund, Norfolk
Matthew Smith f/a Sawyer, St. Clements father Robert gardener
Susanna Jakes f/a father William
Marriage 5 Apr 1868 Norwich, All Saints, Norfolk
William SMITH 22 occ Sawyer, All Saints father Matthew, Sawyer
Eliza VARVELL 22 father John Lab.
Witnesses Isaac Patrick & Susan SMITH
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That looks a good possibility for George in 1871.
I wonder whether William the coal porter in 1881 was really a Smith, or whether that was a convenient fiction if he was cohabiting with Eliza Smith and pretending to be her husband.
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That looks a good possibility for George in 1871.
I wonder whether William the coal porter in 1881 was really a Smith, or whether that was a convenient fiction if he was cohabiting with Eliza Smith and pretending to be her husband.
There’s nothing reliable known as to George’s age or origins unless and until you get the marriage cert.
I agree his marriage certificate to Eliza Hogg would hopefully confirm a father's name , occupation etc
Added - NO evidence posting purely due to name & occupation - can see no children for this couple
5, Jubilee Yard, Norwich, Norfolk, England
Thomas Larter Head Widower 1787 Cabinet Maker Norwich, Norfolk
Thomas Larter Son Unmarried 1828 Cabinet Maker Norwich, Norfolk
George SMITH Son In Law. 1813 Cabinet Maker London, Middlesex,
Caroline Smith Wife Married 1821 Norwich, Norfolk
Visulia Middleton Visitor Married 1827 Char Woman Norwich, Norfolk
1851c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGDJ-QLC
1839 marriage George SMITH , cabinet maker to Caroline CARTER father Thomas cabinet maker
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NX56-W8R
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Hi folks, sorry for the delay, the George I found also was the one with Father Matthew.
I am sure I found a 1881 census with a George Smith Inmate but cannot find now, it would explain Georges absence with the family. Update, found one George Smith b1846 Norwich, in Pentonville prison in 1881, not sure if this was original one I found and whether it is him.
I cannot figure out how to sort the Birth Cert image for Harriett to make smaller, the file is currently too large to post.
Many thanks Sue
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You don’t need to post the certificate (which can in any case be problematic from a copyright point of view) - just tell us what’s on it. In particular, what was the date of Harriett’s birth, what address was she born at and what details are given of her father.
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Harrietts Birth Cert,
Harriett Beatrice Smith b 17/12/1881 Norwich
Father George Smith Coal Carter
Mother Eliza Smith Formerly Hogg
Cannot make out address but here it is
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Water Lane, St Edmund, Norwich.
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So - Harriett's father: George Smith “coal carter” - much closer to William’s occupation than George’s.
Harriett was born on 17 December so probably conceived in March, close to census date (3 April).
I suggest that her natural father is likely to be the “William Smith”, coal porter, enumerated with Eliza in the 1881 census.
So was this George in disguise (having changed both his name and his occupation, formerly a cabinet maker) or another man entirely? And if the latter, what had happened to George?
The marriage certificate will be essential.
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Harrietts Birth Cert,
Harriett Beatrice Smith b 17/12/1881 Norwich
Father George Smith Coal Carter
Mother Eliza Smith Formerly Hogg
I wonder if a father's name has been entered on Harriet's marriage cert., if so, was it George or William, was he deceased, what was his occupation
Harriet Beatrice SMITH married Dec 1906 Yarmouth
Either William James Snowling or William Joseph Carter
1911 census shows her with surname SNOWLING
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X75K-RTT
it made me :) seeing one of the daughters named HAPPY
looks as if she was born before their 1906 marriage
Happy Beatrice SNOWLING mn SMITH
1905 M Quarter in YARMOUTH, GREAT YARMOUTH Volume 04B Page 22
Her death
Harriet Beatrice SNOWLING aged 71 Death Place: 36 Cobholm Rd.
Burial Date: 7 Apr 1953 Great Yarmouth, Norfolk
Cemetery Section: Z Grave number: 195 Interment Number: 17032
Cemetery Notes: Consecrated
Using free search 1939 register Norfolk
(also searched using dob 17/12/1881 (-/+1)
Harriet B Snowling 1882 36 Cobholm Road
William J Snowling and 2 others
So was this George in disguise (having changed both his name and his occupation,
formerly a cabinet maker) or another man entirely?
And if the latter, what had happened to George?
I wonder if this is a possibility for George Smith's death....
Jun 1882 Norwich 4b 80
SMITH George 30 (1852)
.....mmm just realised he would be on the 1881 census ???