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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: beckwar on Thursday 11 April 19 14:18 BST (UK)
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My grandfather Charles Theodore Martin appears to have been a bit of a fibber! When he married my grandmother in 1941 he told her all his family were deceased, I now know this wasn't the case and always wondered what he was hiding. I know nothing of him between end of ww1 and start of ww2. On his marriage to my gran he wrote that his fathers name was walter theodore martin, all my family research tells me there was no theodore in the middle, he also said fathers occupation was a railway engineer, that was his grandfathers occupation not his fathers! He also states that his condition is a bachelor, always thought this was strange getting married for the first time aged 46. He tells lies on the marriage cert and says he's 42! My gran thought there was 11 years age difference between them there was actually 15.
So....Last month ancestry website threw up a hint for my grandfather. On the 1939 register, a Charles Theodore Martin born 10th September 1895 which is my grandfathers name and birth date. This Charles is living with Emily E Martin. I know that there were only a couple of Charles Theodore Martins about at that time and couldn't believe that there would be two with the same date of birth so I ordered the marriage cert for Emily and Charles. The marriage was in 1938, Charles Theodore Martin is 43 years old, fathers name Walter Martin whose occupation is an engineer. I wanted to be able to compare his signature but it appears as though the registrar has hand written in all signatures?! The other very interesting thing is that his condition on the cert is a widower!!!
1. Opinions as to whether the two Charles Theodore Martins are one and the same please? I don't want to be jumping to conclusions.
2. I read somewhere recently that couples have to sign several copies of the marriage cert but actually only one needs to be signed by them, it can be the case that the registrar can write out the signatures on the other copies. Is this true and where would I get the copy that was actually signed by the couple?
3. I am now trying to find a third marriage certificate for whoever this Charles Theodore Martin married first? time around. Free bmd tells me there are 24 marriages to a charles t martin between 1911 (when he was old enough to marry) and 1938 when he married Emily. I'm trying to work through them to see if I can find the right one but not having much luck. Any thoughts on how I can find the marriage?
4. Trying to find what happened to Emily. Emily Elizabeth Smith born 30th Oct 1899, father Frederick William Smith who is deceased by 1938, his occupation grocer. Emily was living at 28 Springfield Mount, Kingsbury at time of marriage. I can't find anything obvious, can anyone help?
Thanks for reading all this!
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If you ordered the certificate fro: the GRO you won't get original signatures. You may be luck if you can get a scanned copy from the Register Office in the area the marriage took place, but you best bet is seeing an image from the actual Parish Registers.
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Thanks for replying. I've had certs from GRO before with actual signatures on. This marriage wasn't in a church it was at a registry office in the district of Hendon. Do you know which register office the records would be at now?
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Which was the 1941 marriage - was it Mar qtr 1941 Woolwich to Eileen M Brown?
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What occupation did he have when he married your grandmother?
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On the 1939 register, a Charles Theodore Martin born 10th September 1895 which is my grandfathers name and birth date. This Charles is living with Emily E Martin.
What is her exact date of birth.
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On the 1939 register, a Charles Theodore Martin born 10th September 1895 which is my grandfathers name and birth date. This Charles is living with Emily E Martin.
What is her exact date of birth.
She says 30 Oct 1899, not 1900.
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Thanks for replying. I've had certs from GRO before with actual signatures on. This marriage wasn't in a church it was at a registry office in the district of Hendon. Do you know which register office the records would be at now?
The GRO has no access to the original records, whereas the local register office holds the duplicate copy of the marriage register book, and the original Birth and Death Registers. In April, July, October and January, each registrar was to make a true copy of all entries in his registers, since the previous copy was made, and was to pass that copy to his superintendent registrar. The Superintendent Registrar was then required to send the certified COPIES of the entries to the Registrar General, these copies are known as 'the quarterly returns'. It is these 'quarterly returns' that are used to make the GRO Indexes.
Some Register Offices provide photocopies from the duplicate marriage registers held by the Superintendent Registrar, and have the original handwriting. The copies you get from the GRO are from the copies of the original register.
Stan
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On the 1939 register, a Charles Theodore Martin born 10th September 1895 which is my grandfathers name and birth date. This Charles is living with Emily E Martin.
What is her exact date of birth.
She says 30 Oct 1899, not 1900.
Possible baptism therefore is this one:
7 Jan 1900 at Christ Church, Rotherhithe.
Emily Elizabeth Smith, born 30 Oct 1899.
Parents: Frederick William (labourer) and Alice Emily, of 12 Cherry Garden St.
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2. I read somewhere recently that couples have to sign several copies of the marriage cert but actually only one needs to be signed by them, it can be the case that the registrar can write out the signatures on the other copies. Is this true and where would I get the copy that was actually signed by the couple?
When you get married in church there are three books. Two marriage registers, one for the Church Records, and one subsequently sent, when full, to the local Register Office, these are signed by the couple and the witnesses, the third book is the marriage certificate, filled in by the vicar as a certified copy, and given to the couple, they should all have the same details.In addition to these books are the forms filled in for the quarterly certified returns.
Stan
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He was awarded the Military Medal in WW1?
So he is the Charles Theodore Martin aka James Douglas Wilson sentenced to six months hard labour at Cheltenham in 1934 for credit fraud.
The Gloucestershire newspaper report says that after the war his wife died a year after their marriage. Which, if accurate, may perhaps help your search.
CTM had a number of previous convictions for theft.
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I don't think we've been told who his parents were. Was he born in Forest Gate & had a brother Alan who served alongside him in WW1? Parents Walter & Eva?
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He was awarded the Military Medal in WW1?
So he is the Charles Theodore Martin aka James Douglas Wilson sentenced to six months hard labour at Cheltenham in 1934 for credit fraud.
The Gloucestershire newspaper report says that after the war his wife died a year after their marriage. Which, if accurate, may perhaps help your search.
CTM had a number of previous convictions for theft.
Oh wow! How do you know this?! Yes my grandfather was awarded the military medal, this has to be him! I cant believe it! All these years i've been wondering what his past held and now it's coming out. Where can I see the news report?
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Which was the 1941 marriage - was it Mar qtr 1941 Woolwich to Eileen M Brown?
the 1941 marriage was in Nuneaton to Eveline Margaret Orrell
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What occupation did he have when he married your grandmother?
He writes R.A.F as his occupation in 1941, occupation in 1938 is gentlemans outfitter.
On the 1939 register, a Charles Theodore Martin born 10th September 1895 which is my grandfathers name and birth date. This Charles is living with Emily E Martin.
What is her exact date of birth.
Her date of birth is 30th October 1899
I don't think we've been told who his parents were. Was he born in Forest Gate & had a brother Alan who served alongside him in WW1? Parents Walter & Eva?
Yes his parents were Walter and Eva, brothers Alan and Frederick served alongside him in ww1
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If you register with the British Newspaper Archive, which is simple to do
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/account/register
You get three page views (which you can download) for free
There are three reports in Gloucester papers in October/November 1934, but I think they are all essentially much the same. Just search for "Charles Theodore Martin"
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If you register with the British Newspaper Archive, which is simple to do
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/account/register
You get three page views (which you can download) for free
There are three reports in Gloucester papers in October/November 1934, but I think they are all essentially much the same. Just search for "Charles Theodore Martin"
Thank you so much, you've made my day! Don't suppose many people say that when discovering a lying, thieving, bigamist grandfather! haha
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On the 1939 register, a Charles Theodore Martin born 10th September 1895 which is my grandfathers name and birth date. This Charles is living with Emily E Martin.
What is her exact date of birth.
She says 30 Oct 1899, not 1900.
Quite a few of my ancestors on the 1939 register have their birth one year out.
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I have come across lot of births dates in the 1939 Register a year out, it seems to be quite common.