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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Horsley2016 on Friday 05 April 19 14:33 BST (UK)
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Dear all,
I wonder if anyone could kindly translate the footnote in this young ladies baptism record please? Her name was Mary Margaret Maher.
Please see attached.
Thank you so much.
M
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Maybe it's just me, but I can't see the record ???
Carol
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And here's an identical one :D
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=811087.0
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Sorry - for some reason it hasn't uploaded. Will try and sort it out! ???
M
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Fingers Crossed...
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Basically it says she married John A Philips, son of John A Phillips, at the church of St John , Liverpool on 25th November 1912, witnesses were Henry (?) Maher and Elizabeth Maher
Boo
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Thank you Boo!
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The groom's mother's name was not recorded, other than what looks like a ?
and John A was 'possibly' younger than her as it says 'aetatis' (at the age of) and then a word I can't decipher. As she was baptised 1889, she would have been over 21, so perhaps he had not yet reached 21.
I have to confess the prominence of the entry number of 1902 threw me at first as I originally thought that was the baptism year and wondered how she was marrying in 1912! :-)
Boo
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and John A was 'possibly' younger than her as it says 'aetatis' (at the age of) and then a word I can't decipher. As she was baptised 1889, she would have been over 21, so perhaps he had not yet reached 21.
Does it say aetatis suae, i.e. his age ?
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Thank you - I *think* this couple may have emigrated to Canada so this info is great to have. I wonder why/how the footnote appeared on a baptism record at St Alphonsus for a marriage at St Johns??! ???
M
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The marriage would also have been fully recorded at St Johns.
The record you see is simply a note made against her baptism record. It is quite commonly found in Roman Catholic records.
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Thank you - I *think* this couple may have emigrated to Canada so this info is great to have. I wonder why/how the footnote appeared on a baptism record at St Alphonsus for a marriage at St Johns??! ???
M
Its quite usual for the RC church where you are to be married to contact the church where you 'say' you were baptised to check the baptism register. In the RC church marriage is a sacrament and they are/were particular in ensuring that you had been baptised (as a pre qualification to celebrating a later sacrament). So John's would have checked with St Alphonsus, as JenB says the actual marriage record will be at St John's but, having been asked, the priest at St Alphonsus made a note in his baptism register.
I have one where a church in Ontario checked with a Liverpool church and it was noted on the baptism register in Liverpool - distance was no hindrance to them checking !
Though its done for religious purposes its 'very' useful for family history researchers all these years later:-)
Boo
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It certainly is useful Boo! Thank you so much for your help.
M
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and John A was 'possibly' younger than her as it says 'aetatis' (at the age of) and then a word I can't decipher. As she was baptised 1889, she would have been over 21, so perhaps he had not yet reached 21.
Does it say aetatis suae, i.e. his age ?
Yes I think you are right JenB. Though mentions of the age of the bride and groom is, in my limited experience of these baptism register notes, not usual. Which is why I wondered if perhaps he wasn't yet 'of full age'. If he too was Catholic and Horsley2016 can find his baptism record there may also be a note on that. Plus, of course, the date he was baptised which could settle the age question.
Boo
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"Ne Temere" a Papal decree on marriage, published and promulgated at Easter 1908.
"The Church of God has ….. forbidden secret marriages. Therefore, lest perhaps anyone should enter into such marriages …."
" …. in our times, when comings and goings among peoples, even those most distant from each other, are accomplished more easily and quickly. Therefore it has seemed expedient …. that some changes be made in the law concerning the form of celebrating marriage …."
".... let it be held as a rule that the marriage be celebrated before the pastor of the bride …."
" … Furthermore let the pastor note also in the book of the baptized, that the wife has contracted a marriage on such and such a day in his parish. But if the wife was baptized elsewhere, the pastor must, either directly or through the episcopal curia, give notice to the pastor of the baptism that the contract has been entered into, so that the marriage may be entered in the book of baptisms."
There is no instruction that marriage information was to be added to husband's baptism register.
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There is no instruction that marriage information was to be added to husband's baptism register.
Though there was no 'instruction' to do so, I have seen many instances where it was added and always try to check both bride and groom's baptism records for clues about a later marriage. I have sometimes found that if the bride was married at the church were she was baptised and had always lived in the parish there is no note, but there was on the baptism record for the groom in another parish.
Like most things the rules and the reality were often different, depending on how busy the priest was at the time, how distracted he may have been at the time etc etc.
Boo
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I agree there was no consistency. My GF's baptism entry has no note about a marriage but my mother's does. They were baptised at the same church. Some male contemporaries of GF have marriage info added to baptism register.