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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: searchr on Thursday 04 April 19 21:39 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I've been investigating a site called history extra, and came across a massacre that happened on the 16 Aug 1819 in Manchester, St. Peter's Fields. That will be 200 years this year! https://www.historyextra.com/period/georgian/peterloo-massacre-1819-protestors-struggle-democracy/
It says that there was a gathering of 60000 weavers, tradesmen and their families then. They were looking for reform, but coming on foot and peacefully, like a family day out. At least 18 people were killed and more than 600 injured. The local magistrates ordered the Manchester and Salford Yeomanry and the 15th Hussars to charge into the crowd.
What tradesmen do you think would have been involved? What occupations in general? Would it have extended to tailors and dressmakers?
How far afield do you think people could have come from?
Is there going to be any sort of commemoration?
Thanks.
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Hi,
I've been investigating a site called history extra, and came across a massacre that happened on the 16 Aug 2019 in Manchester, St. Peter's Fields. That will be 200 years this year! https://www.historyextra.com/period/georgian/peterloo-massacre-1819-protestors-struggle-democracy/
Oops. Bit of a typo there searchr.
I think you meant 1819, not 2019.
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HAve you read the Wikipedia entry? A lot of information.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre
It tells you where they thought most of the people came from.
The crowd that gathered in St Peter's Field arrived in disciplined and organised contingents. Each village or chapelry was given a time and a place to meet, from where its members were to proceed to assembly points in the larger towns or townships, and from there on to Manchester.[40] Contingents were sent from all around the region, the largest and "best dressed"[26] of which was a group of 10,000 who had travelled from Oldham Green, comprising people from Oldham, Royton (which included a sizeable female section), Crompton, Lees, Saddleworth and Mossley.[26] Other sizeable contingents marched from Middleton and Rochdale (6,000 strong) and Stockport (1,500–5,000 strong).[27] Reports of the size of the crowd at the meeting vary substantially. Contemporaries estimated it from 30,000 to as many as 150,000; modern estimates are 60,000–80,000.[41] Scholar Joyce Marlow describes the event as "The most numerous meeting that ever took place in Great Britain" and elaborates that the generally accepted figure of 60,000 would have been six per cent of the population of Lancashire, or half the population of the immediate area around Manchester.[26]
There's a little chart too that gives some idea of how many thousands came from different places.
There's evidently a film of it.
The 2018 Mike Leigh film Peterloo (film) details the incident and the events surrounding
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From http://aboutmanchester.co.uk/peterloo-2019-commemorations-announce-181900-national-lottery-grant/
Thanks to money raised by National Lottery players, a Heritage Lottery Fund grant will enable Manchester Histories and People’s History Museum will work in partnership with Manchester City Council, Historic England, University of Manchester, Manchester Metropolitan University as well as a host of other partners and individuals across Greater Manchester to deliver the Peterloo 2019 project, which will commemorate one of the most significant episodes in the history of Britain’s struggle for universal suffrage.
Karen Shannon, CEO Manchester Histories, says, “The Peterloo Massacre plays a significant role in the history of Manchester. The fall-out from what followed was felt across the country and continues to be felt two hundred years later. We want to ensure that more people know about what happened at Peterloo and consider some of the parallels of what happened then and what is happening in today, not just in Manchester but also globally
And more........
(Google '1819 manchester peterloo commemoration 2019')
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There was also a film released last year called Peterloo.
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OOps. Didn't read to the end of the post :-[
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Thanks all. I've fixed the typo and will investigate the wiki and maybe somehow the film.
Do people know the occupations and places, or will that be revealed from the wiki and film?
I'm glad it's being commemorated.
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Also radical activity in Yorkshire at the time, Huddersfield & Barnsley I think. The Scottish Insurrection of 1820 has a commemoration being held this weekend in Greenock where the militia fired on the crowd,
https://www.electricscotland.com/history/1820/appendix5.htm
Skoosh.
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The upcoming aniversary and last years film (now on DVD and available in Tesco for a tenner - other retailers may have it!) has resulted in a number of good books on the subject. Personally, I don’t think that the film gives the best impression of what happened.
The most comprehensive is titled “The Casualties of Peterloo” by Bush. It isn’t the most recent but, apart from describing the day’s events, it forensically examines the available information for every known casualty. In consequence, this will give you a good idea of where they came from and what they did for a living. Admittedly, the 600 or so casualties are not a particularly big sample of the tens of thousands who attended but it’s likely that this is the most accurate you’ll get.
The most recent I’ve read is “Peterloo - Voices, Sabres & Silence” by Graham Phythian which I wold recommend.
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There are lots of events being organised
https://peterloo1819.co.uk/
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Were already 'Peterloo'd' out...
We've got exhibitions:
John Rylands: https://www.library.manchester.ac.uk/rylands/whats-on/peterloo/
Peoples History Museum: https://phm.org.uk/exhibitions/disrupt-peterloo-and-protest/
Manchester Art Gallery: http://manchesterartgallery.org/exhibitions-and-events/exhibition/gettogether/
Numerous websites - You've already been given one here's another! This one is great
http://peterloowitness1819.weebly.com/ho-42.html
Numerous books:
Jackie Riding, Joyce Marlow, Robert Poole, ML Bush, Robert Reed etc.
Unveiling of memorial will be on 19 August - all that information will be put on the Manchester Histories website: https://peterloo1819.co.uk/
You name it it'll be going on between June and August
However to add to your answer it tended to be weavers & spinners. This event was organised by the Manchester Patriotic Unit. Men, women and children came from town and villages from all over the NW region.
CD
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At the date of Peterloo,the corn laws had not yet been repealed,which meant
bread and flour were prohibitively priced for working people.
Also The Chartists (one man one vote.
Secret ballots etc so men could choose whom they wanted to vote for and not be coerced by their employers tovote for them.)
They joined joined the crowd but were peaceable.
The soldiers were not all fully professional soldiers,I think it was the Cheshire Yeomanry that acted hastily and scattered the crowd using their sabres.
Had the professional soldiers acted they would have been far less aggressive and more controlled is stated in the reports.
People were chased for long distances,for example all the way to Haslingden
in the Rossendale valley.
Mechanisation was not far off and the hand workers ,cottage weavers and spinners would have been anxious about their livelihoods .
There was a topic on this subject a good few years ago with much information.
It is incredible so many people knew of the meeting and as they took their children it was by no means intended to be violent.
It is a really interesting if shameful part of Manchester ‘s and the surrounding district’s history.A peaceful crowd with just causes run to ground .
There is a list in existence of those injured and their injuries.
A very good read is a very old book. “ The Manchester Man” by a woman a good few years after the event .
Mrs. Linnaeus Banks.1882.
Viktoria.
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There were half a dozen lists and these ar brought together in Bush’s book I referred too earlier.
My GGGGrandfather was a cotton printer and features in at least three of them.
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Maxine Peake was in the film.
There are other threads on RootsChat about Peterloo.
As my mother used to say at election time: "People died so that you can vote." Protestors being shot by yeomanry was par for the course round our way in the 19th century. My mother's 2xGGF was likely present at another incident in Preston 1842, although she didn't know that. Deaths were in single figures on that occasion.
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Thanks again all: so much more to investigate!
In the wiki post there were references to a poem by Percy Bysshe Shelley & classical music & music by Tractor & Steeleye Span.
Also I found a site that listed towns & occupations.
http://www.peterloomassacre.org/
The Peterloo Memorial Campaign:
http://www.peterloomassacre.org/names.html
The Peterloo Memorial Campaign: master list of names connected with Peterloo: Name; Place of residence; Town; Occupation
http://www.peterloomassacre.org/occupations_6sept.pdf
http://www.peterloomassacre.org/towns_6sept.pdf
There were some tailors too, mainly on the side of the weavers. I am interested because my gggggrandfather was a tailor in Wainfleet in Lincs at the time, with a wife and children, and I wonder if he heard about it at all and what he thought about it if he did and if it even affected him and his family.
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There were some tailors too, mainly on the side of the weavers. I am interested because my gggggrandfather was a tailor in Wainfleet in Lincs at the time, with a wife and children, and I wonder if he heard about it at all and what he thought about it if he did and if it even affected him and his family.
"The Manchester Guardian" newspaper, now "The Guardian" was founded in 1821 in aftermath of Peterloo. Internet search for Guardian founding history will show several sites and facsimiles of early editions.
Copies of ballads were sold on streets. There's a collection in Manchester. There are 19th-century poetry collections of working-class Lancashire poets.
Chartism, trades union rights and repeal of the corn laws were campaigns which lasted for decades. They feature in tv drama "Victoria". Repealing the corn laws in 1840s cost Robert Peel his premiership and split the Conservative party.
Henry "Orator" Hunt became M.P. for Preston for a short time in 1830s. Preston was unusual in that all men over 21 who had been resident for a certain time and were not paupers or convicted felons, were eligible to vote. My Chartist & trade-unionist ancestor lived there in 1840s & 1850s, spending his spare time agitating, demonstrating, striking, picketing and occasionally appearing in court. Karl Marx expected the English revolution to start in Preston. Marx sent a letter of support to the Labour Parliament, held in Manchester in 1854.
There were uprisings in continental Europe in 1830s & 1840s. 1848 was "The Year of Revolutions".
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Thanks all. I've fixed the typo and will investigate the wiki and maybe somehow the film.
Do people know the occupations and places, or will that be revealed from the wiki and film?
I'm glad it's being commemorated.
They would have been from various trades, but I would think a large proportion would have been cottage weavers and spinners. This was at the start of industrialisation, so some would also have worked on early power looms and spinning frames, but these mills wouldn't have been as large as the ones built in the latter half of the century. They would have been producing woollens such as 'shalloon' for example, cotton and also 'fustian' fabrics
The 'places' they came from were mostly outside the town of Manchester. They marched a certain route into the town (there is a map of the routes online). Mostly from around Lancashire, and Cheshire but also some from the Pennine border West Riding area.
I have to admit I was disappointed by the recent film
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there is a map of the routes online
Thanks again all. I am very grateful. Could I ask another favour please? Where could I find a map of the routes?
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Wiki says first cotton mill 1783, 42 by 1800.
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Arkwright’s Mill was excavated by Time Team quite some years ago.
It was said to be on Miller St,but more exactly,nearer Angel St and Crown Square.
A massive place.
The team talked about the houses on Angel St but seemed oblivious of the much smaller dwellings known as “ back to backs”.
(People call terraced houses back to backs but they do have a back exit and are at least two rooms deep.)
IE houses only one room deep,just one door as no back exit because another house was joined on .Three storeys high if you count the attic ,four if you count a hole for a bed scaraped in the cellar wall.
Four families might live there ,
At John St a little further along number 10 was written about by a researcher doing a degree in Social Studies.
There were 19 people dwelling there ,the ground floor was10 x12 feet.
Not all related and probably shift workers so not all there at the same time.
We took a party of schoolchildren and made 19 stand in the outline of the
walls still visible .
Too small for a staircase the upper room was accesssed by a ladder flat to the wall ,likewise the draughty attic.
As you can imagine it was on the Cholera map drawn up by a concerned Doctor.
To think people had to leave their rural dwellings in the fresh air and countryside for the smoke,filth,no clean water ,no sanitation and overcrowding of towns the like of which Manchester rapidly became.
Tragic.
Viktoria.
Sadly it was built over , another @#£&&£#@ car park.!
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The right to vote. as fought for by the Radicals, was a long time in coming to the UK & Universal Suffrage was only realized in Northern Ireland in 1968. That much-vaunted British Democracy was a sham & thanks to the un-elected House of Lords still is! "Courage brothers do not stumble!"
Skoosh.
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there is a map of the routes online
Thanks again all. I am very grateful. Could I ask another favour please? Where could I find a map of the routes?
There is a zoomable one here
https://www.all-things-considered.org/product-page/the-peterloo-massacre-map-2017
There is a basic one here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Peterloo_contingents_map.svg/750px-Peterloo_contingents_map.svg.png)
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Thanks again. A little bit more exploration from there gave this site https://www.all-things-considered.org/remember-peterloo
It has a map based on the other one, with names on the routes too!
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Wiki says first cotton mill 1783, 42 by 1800.
Most of those would have been small mills, employing about ten people according to Wiki?
The larger, especially coal/steam powered, mills were only just starting up at the turn of the century. 'Old Mill' in Ancoats was built in 1798, but would have been exceptional at the time, but small by mid to late 19th century standards.
I would think most of the weavers, and some spinners, who attended Peterloo would have been working in the domestic/cottage side of production. Both cotton and wool based
Looking at the marriage registers on the Lancashire OPC site might give some idea of probable range of occupations for those attending St Peters field in August 1819.
For example these occupations and places are taken from the marriage register of Saint Marys, in Oldham, January-March 1817. So yes, probably a lot of weavers there. Both industrial and domestic?
Spinner, [of] Shaw
Weaver, Mumps
Weaver, Hollinwood
Coalminer, Lowside
Weaver, Royton
Rover, King Street Oldham
Spinner, West Street Oldham
Farmer, Denton lane
Hatter, Manchester Street Oldham
Weaver, Royton
Weaver, Greenacres
Hatter, West Street Oldham
Weaver, Crompton
Weaver, Broadway lane
Coalminer, Crompton
Weaver, Glodwick
Weaver, Hunsworth
Cloather, White field
Weaver, George Street Oldham
Spinner, Chadderton
Weaver, Cannon Street Oldham
Weaver, Chadderton
Spinner, Bottom of Greenacres Moor
Weaver, Cowhill
Weaver, Hollinwood
Weaver, West Street Oldham
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Long list of the injured and witnesses etc in the link here, includes occupations.
http://www.peterloomassacre.org/names.html
List of fatalities
http://www.peterloomassacre.org/deaths.html
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Shocking stuff Sally!
Skoosh.
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Shocking stuff Sally!
Skoosh.
Yes, the panic of such a large crowd must have been terrifying .
There must be a lot of people whose direct ancestors were actually there as well. Anyone else think there ancestors might have attended the meeting?
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That’s what, to me, didn’t come across in the film. Too few people in the crowd, a limited amount of blood and gore, no mention of the ongoing problems into the evening/night, totally ignoring the many places people came from.
The most amusing thing for me was the film makers understanding of the term “moorland”. There is evidence that, prior to the event, participants had been “drilling on the moors”. These would have been lowland moors rather than the high moors the film depicted. It was particularly amusing to see a party of protestors travelling in from Oldham over high level moors whereas, in reality, the journey from Oldham to Manchester is largely downhill all the way.
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The right to vote. as fought for by the Radicals, was a long time in coming to the UK & Universal Suffrage was only realized in Northern Ireland in 1968.
Tv programme on BBC4 last week "Border Country: When Ireland Was Divided" was "an evocative mix of archive footage and personal reminiscences". It included the civil rights campaign of the late 1960s and footage of enthusiastic use of truncheons on demonstrators. The difference with Peterloo is that people saw the incidents on tv news.
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The Scottish Insurrection of 1820 was actually organised by government agents, the weavers were encouraged to rise and were defeated by the military at Bonnymuir. Public beheadings followed.
https://www.electricscotland.com/history/1820/1820_rising.htm
Skoosh.
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"Peterloo: the Massacre That Changed Britain", a 2 part series Radio 4 2nd & 9th August.
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Thankyou, missed the first part but will hear part two.
Viktoria.
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Part 1 might be on BBC Sounds/iPlayer.
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If there were 60,000 protestors at Peterloo the number of casualties were hardly a massacre. Mobs were and are never peaceful, Poll Tax, Tottenham and so on. The images of Peterloo show phrygian caps, red flags etc. signs of revolution. It was only 30 years since THE French Revolution. Britain had fought it from 1793 to 1802 and 1803 to 1814 and 1815.
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The word "mob" is an emotive one. There is a huge difference between an orderly demonstration and a mob.
Massacre is another emotive word. Dictionary definition: "General slaughter especially of unresisting persons." Definition of slaughter: "Killing of animal(s) for food, slaying, especially of many persons or animals at once."
As there are no photographs of the event, all we have are images by artists, who may have used artistic licence and eyewitness accounts.
"The Phrygian Cap or the Cap of Liberty"
"A cap with the word liberty inscribed … was used in England as a symbol of constitutional liberty in 1760s …"
https://www.geriwalton.com/the-phrygian-cap-or-cap-of-liberty
Flags of Political Reform in 19th Century Britain
https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/Flags/gb_chart.html
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I will get the DVD if I see it, although I suppose it will be an exercise in working class maudlin self pity. They knew full well the consequences of assembly, riotous or otherwise. By the way, the infantry uniforms are wrong, 1812 to 1815, should be 1816 to 1830, quite a bit different.
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The meeting was orderly until The Cheshire Yeomanry charged into the crowd.
Reports had it that as Yeomanry they were not professional soldiers and had they been it would have been more orderly and so most probably fewer casualties, if any and less panic.
Many were there because they were hoping their demonstration would bring about the repeal of The Corn Laws and so the price of bread would be more affordable for working people.
The fact that whole families were there in a day out sort of atmosphere showed the peaceful intentions of the crowd.
The Chartist movement had a presence too.
There was a lovely building in Ancoats built by The Chartist movement. “ The Round House “ in Ancoats near Ancoats Hall.
It was the time of rotten boroughs and the ” Pot Walloper boroughs”
Manchester had one M.P whereas somewhere like Old Sarum a deserted village had two and places much smaller than M/c had several.
So there were several causes that day.
It was entirely peaceable until the cavalry charged with drawn swords.
People were chased for long distances ,some as far as Haslingden, on the way to Burnley.
Even so it was the 1830’s before Peel repealed The Corn laws.
A good account in a famous book by Linnaeus Banks, The Manchester Man.
A good description of the events on Oldham St and Oldham Rd.as the cavalry chased people.
Book written pre1876 ,with some first hand accounts included by author.
When you think that many of those present came from surrounding areas and were still home workers,spinning and weaving in their cottages in the areas surrounding Manchester and only twenty five or thirty years later the slums of Manchester had been built, according to Friedrich Engels the worst slums in Europe.
Wonder what the casualty figures would have been then as the population of Manchester must have quadrupled .
There were also by then Irish Immigrants fleeing the famine and they had their own grievances besides those of the indigent population.
Interesting times, once again we do not know we are born!
Viktoria.
Just read the relevant chapter and and it was The Manchester and Cheshire Yeomanry.
They charged so they could issue a warrant to Hunt,but they could see they would not get through the crowd,so they charged when all was peaceable.
The order was not necessary and the one who commanded it was justly condemned.
There were many injuries and those who died later from their wounds were not counted as mortalities ,only those who died at the scene.
Viktoria.
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The meeting was orderly until The Cheshire Yeomanry charged into the crowd.
Reports had it that as Yeomanry they were not professional soldiers and had they been it would have been more orderly and so most probably fewer casualties, if any and less panic.
Many were there because they were hoping their demonstration would bring about the repeal of The Corn Laws and so the price of bread would be more affordable for working people.
The fact that whole families were there in a day out sort of atmosphere showed the peaceful intentions of the crowd.
The Chartist movement had a presence too.
There was a lovely building in Ancoats built by The Chartist movement. “ The Round House “ in Ancoats near Ancoats Hall.
It was the time of rotten boroughs and the ” Pot Walloper boroughs”
Manchester had one M.P whereas somewhere like Old Sarum a deserted village had two and places much smaller than M/c had several.
So there were several causes that day.
It was entirely peaceable until the cavalry charged with drawn swords.
People were chased for long distances ,some as far as Haslingden, on the way to Burnley.
Even so it was the 1830’s before Peel repealed The Corn laws.
A good account in a famous book by Linnaeus Banks, The Manchester Man.
A good description of the events on Oldham St and Oldham Rd.as the cavalry chased people.
Book written pre1876 ,with some first hand accounts included by author.
When you think that many of those present came from surrounding areas and were still home workers,spinning and weaving in their cottages in the areas surrounding Manchester and only twenty five or thirty years later the slums of Manchester had been built, according to Friedrich Engels the worst slums in Europe.
Wonder what the casualty figures would have been then as the population of Manchester must have quadrupled .
There were also by then Irish Immigrants fleeing the famine and they had their own grievances besides those of the indigent population.
Interesting times, once again we do not know we are born!
Viktoria.
Just read the relevant chapter and and it was The Manchester and Cheshire Yeomanry.
They charged so they could issue a warrant to Hunt,but they could see they would not get through the crowd,so they charged when all was peaceable.
The order was not necessary and the one who commanded it was justly condemned.
There were many injuries and those who died later from their wounds were not counted as mortalities ,only those who died at the scene.
Viktoria.
Sorry but this information is wrong.
Peterloo happened in 1819. The 'Chartist' period did not begin until the late 1830s and the Irish famine was in the 1840s. There was no "Chartist presence' at Peterloo, this came later at much larger meetings, such as Peep Green in 1839.
Apart from Peterloo, Manchester wasn't even known as that much of a radical town
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...also, it wasn't the 'Cheshire Yeomanry'
It was the Manchester and Salford.
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The Fifteenth Hussars had 600 soldiers
The Cheshire Yeomanry had 400
Manchester and Salford had 120
And there were 400 Constables.
Although the Chartists were not as yet a society there were people who had the principles of Chartism at Peterloo.It was a embryonic movement even in 1819. According to my History teacher.
If you read my post again you will see I mention the Irish famine as a factor in the vastly increased population of Manchester, but 20 to 25 years later - in 1840-45,( 1815 for P/loo was a typing error),and I made the comparison with the number killed at Peterloo with what it could easily have been when the population had vastly increased by the Irish immigrants, had Peterloo been 20 to 25 years later.
I did not say there were refugees from the famine at Peterloo,only that had there been the casualties would have been much higher.
There are many sources and many tales and false histories about any event,
one of my sources was the book “ The Manchester Man” by Linnaeus Banks.
Written pre 1876.
There is an explanation regarding people interviewed by the author and their first hand experiences ,noticeably in Oldham Street Manchester.
The crowd had been ordered not to carry even a walking stick, it had to be seen as an absolutely peaceful meeting.
But the soldiers were ordered to move the crowd so a writ could be served to one in the platform,and so charged with the historic results we know about.
My apology for the date error, but the rest is from history lessons,Radio programmes, reading material and just being a Mancunian with the wonderful murals in ( I nearly put Muriel’s then!)Manchester’s Glorious Town Hall.
Viktoria
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Victoria
The main reason the population in the industrial districts/ towns like Manchester 'vastly' increased was because people moved in from the surrounding Lancashire, Yorkshire, Cheshire etc countryside. Though most people attending Peterloo were not actually from Manchester. They came from surrounding town's
Yes there were waves of Irish immigration at certain times, circa late 1840s, circa 1900 and also after the last war, but the Irish joined a huge demographic of English Working Class and so did not make a 'vast' difference to the population and especially not in 1819.
These are the most common surnames in Lancashire in 1881. The surnames for Manchester, even now, are similar
http://www.britishsurnames.co.uk/1881census/lancashire
SMITH 45,465 1.3115 0.93
TAYLOR 38,342 1.1060 1.73
JONES 34,724 1.0017 0.88
JACKSON 18,242 0.5262 1.88
WILLIAMS 18,213 0.5254 0.73
BROWN 17,335 0.5001 0.76
ROBINSON 16,378 0.4725 1.48
WILSON 15,643 0.4512 0.98
JOHNSON 15,078 0.4350 1.29
ROBERTS 14,387 0.4150 1.10
HARRISON 13,369 0.3857 1.74
DAVIES 13,293 0.3835 0.75
THOMPSON 13,089 0.3776 1.26
WOOD 13,015 0.3754 1.18
HUGHES 12,467 0.3596 1.28
WALKER 12,032 0.3471 1.04
HALL 11,757 0.3392 1.15
SHAW 11,616 0.3351 1.82
TURNER 11,591 0.3344 1.20
HOWARTH 11,395 0.3287 6.84
HOLT 10,528 0.3037 4.54
WRIGHT 10,502 0.3029 0.94
GREEN 10,442 0.3012 1.07
WILKINSON 10,296 0.2970 1.95
ASHWORTH 9,551 0.2755 6.91
EVANS 9,220 0.2660 0.61
YATES 9,171 0.2646 3.85
HOLDEN 9,076 0.2618 4.78
MORRIS 8,723 0.2516 1.13
RILEY 8,663 0.2499 3.16
KELLY 8,522 0.2458 2.24
WALSH 8,416 0.2428 4.56
BOOTH 8,397 0.2422 2.46
LORD 8,273 0.2386 5.18
WHITTAKER 8,043 0.2320 4.90
SCHOFIELD 7,978 0.2301 4.25
BUTTERWORTH 7,951 0.2294 6.39
HARGREAVES 7,874 0.2271 5.45
PARKINSON 7,744 0.2234 4.66
CHADWICK 7,697 0.2220 5.08
HILL 7,522 0.2170 0.85
HARTLEY 7,518 0.2169 3.46
LEE 7,497 0.2163 1.32
GREENWOOD 7,302 0.2106 2.71
WHITEHEAD 7,269 0.2097 3.10
KAY 7,249 0.2091 4.02
WARD 7,223 0.2084 0.95
FLETCHER 7,205 0.2078 1.82
EDWARDS 7,112 0.2052 0.74
BARNES 6,968 0.2010 1.67
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Part 2 of "Peterloo - The Aftermath" is in Radio 4 tomorrow at 11 a.m.
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The Peterloo massacre sparked rioting across central Scotland, a memorial rally on Sep' 11th in Paisley attended by 5,000 radicals, led to a week of rioting.
Skoosh.
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Viktoria, you have found the cavalry strengths. Do you know the infantry strengths, There were hundreds if not a thousand, most likely detachments from regular (and militia) regiments. There were also 2 cannon of the Royal Artillery.
The contemporary prints show Manchester and Salford Yeomanry (disbanded 1825) and 15th Hussars. The Yeomanry uniforms were the 1812 light dragoon pattern, very similar to the 11th Light Dragoons with white collars, cuffs and plastron fronts. In the film, looks like the re-enactment group of 11th LD's acted as Manchester Yeomanry. No sign of Cheshire Yeomanry.
Only way to get to the stand where Orator Hunt was, was by using the horses to force a way through, that would have caused hundreds of casualties in a close packed crowd let alone their sabres, the deadly 1796 light cavalry pattern. In the Peninsula, the French made an official complaint about them.
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SallyYorks,I did say the Irish did not come over until the famine years1840’s.
My point was that had that many more people been in M/c at the time of Peterloo,the casualty lists would have been much longer.
I know the vast majority of those at St. Peter’s Fields were from outlying districts but Arkwright had built his mill on Miller Street Angel Meadow M/c between 1771 and early 1780’s.
So Cottonopolis has already begun.
It was vast and would have employed many.
They would not have travelled from the outlying districts given the long hours -12 hour shifts and also child labour., every day so the slum dwellings began to be built .
As cheaply as possible, so as small as possible ,as quickly as possible and as close to the mill as possible.
Only demolished in the 1930’s but some as late as the late forties.
The area where it was built was quite rural, St. Michael’s and all Angels Church was a carriage church ( posh!)and the area named Angel Meadow which is what it would have been formerly, a lovely Meadow with the little river Irk running through.
Later that was an open sewer ,yet the only source of water for that area .
Anyway ,as I said ,the Irish people came in the 1840’s .
Amongst the troops I mentioned were there others were there .
, I did not know many of those mentioned .I think M/c Town Hall is closed for visitors ,re decoration ,but I must go to see those murals again.
What a pity in this 200 year anniversary of Peterloo!
The central figure in The Manchester Man is Jabez Clegg an orphan, found in a cradle floating down the Irk in the floods.
His path crosses that of Laurence Aspinall at M/c Cathedral at a mass Baptism.
Jabez was adopted by a poor tanner who saw the cradle in the water.
Laurence is very upper crust and is horrible to poor but honest Jabez. ::)::)
they meet again when the rivalry between M/c Grammar school and Chetham’s gets out of hand .
At Peterloo Laurence is in The Cheshire Yeomanry and his troop chase people right up Oldham St .where there a good many casualties listed .
Thank you all for you knowledge and expertise,my error re date ,sorry.
Thanks for the radio link too.
Melvin Bragg did a good coverage in “ In Our Time “ earlier in the year.
Never does any harm to be corrected, we did Peterloo it in history at school and boy
did it make us proud to be Mancunians.
That was Er——16 from 82, 6 from 2 you can’t so borrow a 10, 6 from 10 is 4 add the 2= 6 . Pay back the 10 you borrowed to the tens column so 2 from 8 = 6. Answer 16 from 82 = 66,I think!
But much more evidence is now known these days.
Forgive a poor old lady a few errors won’t you. :-[
Cheerio,Viktoria.
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Just listened again ,on my iPad,to this morning’s Peterloo broadcast.
I heard something and wanted to be certain,re Chartists and Peterloo.
A man named Stafford from Ashton ,wrote a song straight after Peterloo and the programme stated that it was used by Chartists as an anthem ,up to the 1830’s.
So obviously there was a movement at least,at the time of Peterloo which developed into the full blown Chartist Society .
Chartism with its “ One man one vote ,Secret ballots and proportional representation” was very much fired by as I said ,by the Rotten and Pot Walloper Boroughs at a time when Old Sarum had two M.Ps but no people
and Manchester had about 100,000 people but no M.P to represent those people in Parliament.,
Not until The Reform act a few years later did M/c get an M.P.
I have looked up lots of info from many sources and hardly any two
agree on all points,especially the numbers and the military.
So sallyorks we will have to agree to differ, the most important thing is that the meeting took place of peaceable ordinary hard pressed people seeking just reform of the Corn laws ,parliamentary representation etc ,but who were
not allowed their voice ,yet the fact that it did develop into a massacre,albeit relatively few were killed and injured,which is still active in people’s memory
and paved the way for the many benefits we have today.
They were so brave ,although they had no idea how it would develop and people like Samuel Bamford risked a great deal, as any such radicalism was seen as almost a revolution French style,that is why the National Anthem was played to show it was a peaceable gathering to air just grievances
The savagery of the Yeomanry went as far as beating a man at seven O’clock in the evening and harrying people back to the hills ,in one case to Haslingden.That amazed me when I heard a programme about about Peterloo that was broadcast just after we returned to the U.K after 12 years abroad ,in 1976 and it did stir my Mancunian pride and was one of those little things that make you feel you have come home.
Cheerio.Viktoria..
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Chartism takes its name from the People's Charter of 1838. Unless they had invented time travel it was physically impossible for Chartists to be at Peterloo in 1819 however you want to spin it.
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The Chartists didn't just spring from nowhere, they were the same folk, or their sons, who were out on the streets a generation before. The end of the Napoleonic Wars saw recession & unemployment & many realised that their real enemy wasn't the French but the British oligarchy who we have to thank for the Highland Clearances in Scotland & the Irish Famine in the 1840's. The Great Patriotic War was all about saving the necks, the land & the lifestyle of the British ruling class from the bogey-man Napoleon & the workers were the mugs & canon-fodder wot did it!
Skoosh.
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The Chartists didn't just spring from nowhere,
Of course not - the people at Peterloo were demanding the same basic rights as the Chartists 20 years later.
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Mike, you have made my point exactly, the iniquities ,inequalities etc were there long before the Reform Act and the before the name “Chartists”applied to like minded people who wanted reform.
How could they be Chartists before the Charter..?1830’s.
The Militia were called in as there was great fear that The French Revolution would infect working class people over here, and on the day ,there were some people wearing caps like those worn by the French people , among the crowd and some on poles .
The statement in the radio programme this morning said that a song composed right after Peterloo was sung by Chartists, probably meaning people who later ,when the when The Chartist Society was formed became members.
The song was an anthem for Chartism up to the late 1830’s when the Reform Bill was passed.
So no time travel needed,just the understanding that movements take time to mature especially in an atmosphere of fear and repression caused by the ruling classes in case a guillotine should be erected in London!
Yes Skoosh ,you are right , there was a lot of unrest and poverty , the Corn laws not repealed until1848 ,too late to help alleviate suffering in the Great Irish famine , and by which time many Scots has been forced to leave their Crofts.For sheep!
So much for The Charge of The Scots Greys at Waterloo!
( That is a smashing painting , in The Art gallery in Leeds,well Temple Newsham)
Cheerio Viktoria.
P.S. my Dad loved talking about Peterloo ,but the gory version - would not have it that less than a thousand people were slashed to death.
Do not know who his history teacher was but his GreatGreat grandma was alive at the time of Peterloo,! V.
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200 th Anniversary of Peterloo today,events in Manchester and some info on the lunchtime news.
I did not think about that added to the general unrest there would be men returning from the Napoleonic Wars to poor conditions and often no work.
So many churches began to be built ,and you wonder if it was anything to do with keeping down the masses through religion,as employers who built churches( Fire Insurance? ;D) could dictate that their employees must attend
that church.
When hymns like “All things bright and beautiful “ could have verses like
The rich man in his castle
The poor man at his gate.
God made them high and lowly
And ordered their estate,.
Talk about people knowing their perceived place in the order of things!!!
That verse is not sung today,and a good thing too!
Some churches were actually called “ Waterloo churches” and Government money released for them.
Well looking forward to the evening’s news re this afternoon’s events at St. Peter’s Fields.
Viktoria.
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Quite a good programme,and there were actually photographs of people who were at Peterloo,albeit taken in 1887( correct me if I have mis remembered that date) and their descendants were contacted.
Some had not even heard of Peterloo until contacted.
Well it was stated 18 killed so I think those who died later were included.
But an informative programme and I must go to M/c to see the murals when the Town Hall is open to the public again.
Viktoria.
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Quite a good programme,and there were actually photographs of people who were at Peterloo,albeit taken in 1887( correct me if I have mis remembered that date) and their descendants were contacted.
I believe it was 1884. I only know that because I read it in "The Daily Mirror" online today. The photo was taken at a commemorative event to coincide with an expansion of the franchise.
"PM" radio programme today ended with Shelley's poem, read by a Manchester poet.
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Thankyou,
It was a sobering statement that many men there that day had served in the Napoleonic wars, Waterloo included and escaped French sabres to be cut down by their own countrymen.
A long time too before any reforms.
That poem is v e ry l o n g !!!!
I did not know of it,so thanks again.
Viktoria.
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Hi Viktoria
I just wanted to thank you for your input on this post. Very informative and thought provoking. am only sorry that I have only just found it.
From the lists I see that members of my ancestral Manchester families were there: Chadwick, Clegg, Garside and Hargreaves.
Skoosh, I liked your comments too.
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I am looking forward to a talk on a Peterloo at our local Heritage Society,
next week.
The more you read and look up the more versions and variations etc you find.
The main fact to me is that people gathered together to make peaceful protest about things that were adversely affecting their lives.
What they asked for either directly or which developed into what we take for granted today , started there ,and by people who had little or no control over their lives.
What a long way we have come and we must never forget that it was a movement in the North of England.
That is not to say there was no unrest in other places,but the speed of industrialisation without a proper infrastructure ,which superseded the literally “cottage “ industry of previous times,and took over a whole area
without thought or consideration for the workforce who were self employed no longer,was catastrophic.
It really does make me proud to be Northern.
If you can find it ,read. Lovely book King Cotton,a while later than Peterloo,
the 1860’s when cotton operatives refused to work with cotton produced on slave owning plantations,so they were literally starving.
Thanks for your reply ,many interesting facts emerged, and corrections because as I mentioned no two reports are exactly the same.
The essence of it remains ,working class people ,who would perhaps themselves never see any of the improvements they sought at Peterloo,started a movement which has brought many benefits to us today.
King Cotton ,by Thomas Armstrong.
ISBN 9780002214063’ from Amazon.
Cheerio.Viktoria.
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Precursors of the early 19th-century reform movements in Britain:
London Corresponding Society, a Radical organisation formed 1792. Principle aim was political reform. Wanted universal male suffrage and annual parliaments. It was founded by Thomas Hardy, a shoemaker. Artisans, tradesmen and shopkeepers were a large part of the membership. Other notable members were Olaudh Equiano, former slave, and Edward Marcus Despard. The latter was executed for treason. (Despard and his wife were characters in the last series of "Poldark" but dramatic licence altered some events and dates.)
Corresponding Societies existed in Manchester, Norwich, Sheffield, Stockport, Scotland and Ireland.
The movement was infiltrated by government spies and agent provocateurs.
A Treason Act and an Act to control seditious meetings were passed.
Society for Constitutional Information. Aim was to educate people about politics. Published cheap pamphlets.
An article about corresponding societies in 18th century is on "A Web of English History".
www.historyhome.co.uk/c-eight/18reform/corrsoc.htm
Other topics on the website are "Political Organisations in the Age of Peel" and "Popular Movements in the Age of Peel".
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How interesting,Maidenstone , we were not taught that in History at school.
Were those other areas as badly affected as Lancashire with its very rapid industrialisation?
If so why were they not featured in school history I wonder.
It would have been interesting and only fair to at least have mentioned those societies, even though the event commemorated in August was Peterloo.
Brave people to stand up to the powers that be in those days.
The Tolpuddle martyrs certainly paid the price , albeit pardoned .
Wonder if the T.U.C. Will have bicentennial commemorations ?
A few years to go yet.
Thanks, most of that was new to me .
Speaking to a lady today ,she admitted she had not heard of Peterloo,and was amazed that in those days people would travel so far ,on foot mostly ,
to make their views known.
Especially given the repression of the times.
Thanks again .
Viktoria.
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The Society for Constitutional Information aka The Constitutional Society had been active since 1770s. Over time it had branches in most major towns in England, especially in the North, e.g. Stockport, Manchester, Sheffield. There were branches in Derby and Nottingham.
Manchester Constitutional Society was formed 1790. A founding member was Thomas Walker (b. 1749), a cotton merchant. He was active in the movement for abolition of the slave trade and was an organiser of the Manchester anti-slavery group. He was also a member of Friends of the People, another group for political reform. Repeated mob-violence against his home led to him and his friends arming themselves for protection. He was arrested and put on trial at Lancaster in 1794.
Leeds Constitutional Society claimed to have 2000 members in 1793. Sheffield Constitutional Society had "several thousand". ("The British Democrats" page on https://www.marxists.org/history/england/britdem/index.htm )
This website has information about other reform and radical movements.
The London Corresponding Society became the largest radical organisation in England. It collected names on a petition for electoral reform in April 1793. Three pamphlets published by the society are in the British Library including "Address of the London Corresponding Society, to the other Societies of Great Britain, united for obtaining a Reform in Parliament", published 1792.
https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/address-of-the-london-corresponding-society-for-obtaining-a-reform-in-Parliament
"Parliament and the London Corresponding Society", a thesis by Reed Joseph Vandehay, Portland State University 1975
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/37774413.pdf
The Friends of the People had only a small membership in England but was the dominant organisation in Scotland.
A British Convention in Edinburgh in 1794 was attended by some English radicals.
Spartacus Educational website has a section on parliamentary reform.
https://spartacus-educational.com/PRparliament.htm
There are numerous sub-topics and bios of key players.
My interest in the London Corresponding Society led from learning about Ned and Kitty Despard after seeing them in "Poldark". They could have a spin-off series. There is an illustration of the petition for reform in Parliament in an article about Edward and Catherine Despard. There is also a portrait of Olaudh Equiano, another member of the society. Catherine Despard became a campaigner for prison reform as a consequence of her husband's imprisonment.
https://mikejay.net/edward-and-catherine-despard
The sentence on Edward Despard and his co-conspirators, and on some later agitators was to be hanged, drawn, quartered and beheaded, since they had been found guilty of treason. The punishment was commuted to hanging and beheading, omitting disembowelling and quartering.
History Workshop is a website I've just discovered. It has information about the London Corresponding Society. www.historyworkshop.org.uk
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Hi Maiden Stone
A couple of very good posts there, thank you.
Obviously Peterloo is a very important part of Manchester's history. I do think that seeing the 'bigger picture' of the national and international scene and what happened before and after is crucial to a fuller understanding. Posts such as yours help to make this clear.
Thanks for the links too.
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I do think that seeing the 'bigger picture' of the national and international scene and what happened before and after is crucial to a fuller understanding.
Tom Paine, born in England, lived in America and France, "a citizen of nowhere". "The Rights of Man". The Society for Constitutional Information disseminated it in pamphlets in Britain.
American Revolution and War of Independence. "No taxation without representation".
French Revolution, followed by war with Britain until 1815; French emigres in England.
Ireland: Irish Parliament subservient to British Parliament at Westminster - United Irishmen - savage repression by government forces - invasion attempts by French - armed risings in Ireland in 1798, one aided by a French force - more repression - abolition of Irish Parliament (Act of Union 1801) - Robert Emmet's abortive rising and his execution - Daniel O'Connell & campaign for Catholic emancipation.
Government fearful of revolution in Britain.
Campaign for abolition of slavery. Some campaigners for political reform were also abolitionists. A few were former slaves or children of slaves e.g. Olaudh Equiano, Catherine Despard (information about early life of the latter is obscure).
Dissenters from the Established Churches - Church of England and Church of Ireland - growing in numbers and influence. Methodism began as a reforming movement in C. of E., splitting from it in England in late 18th century. (Methodism features in "Poldark" - Demelza's brother, a tin miner, is a lay preacher.) Non-conformism was strong in towns such as Bolton and Stockport.
Literacy. Dissemination of ideas through pamphlets and newspapers. The list of places where the London Corresponding Society's petition for reform in Parliament could be signed included several booksellers and 2 newspapers. The government imposed a tax on newspapers and on adverts in newspapers, making a newspaper too expensive for most people and putting some owners out of business. (Literacy a recurring theme in "Poldark" - improve knowledge, prospects and self-respect; a Saturday school for miners' children set up.)
1815 end of a very long war. Thousands of discharged soldiers. Depression in some trades such as shoemaking as the British Army needed fewer boots, uniforms, saddlery for horses &c.
1816 "The year of no summer" throughout Europe, consequence of a volcanic eruption. Loss of harvest - shortage of food - price rises - bread riots - increased need for Poor Relief.
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Gosh thanks, that is so much in a nutshell,Tom Paine ,yes, but why did we learn about him in isolation .
Is my memory correct when I say that ( I may be mixing two books up,)
in “ The Last of the Mohicans “, Natty Bumpo — Hawkeye visits London?
Tom Paine is mentioned as he too visited
London and gave an address in a London theatre! “ The Rights of Man” most probably.
Do correct me, it is entirely possible I am mixed up.
I thought I had a good history teacher,but she could not stray far from the set syllabus.
Ireland ,yes pretty good cover of that complex situation, and the injustices .
Thanks again, hopefully you can dis - entangle my mental muddle.
Cheerio,Viktoria.
P.S. “Northwest Passage “ keeps coming to mind,so long since I read the books.
I’ii never forget what one of the group had in his pack ,in “N.W,Passage” :o
Thanks.Viktoria.
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Looked it up and Major Rogers ( N.W.Passage) a real person ,English but commanded troops in America (1700’s)and led the search for the N.W.Passage.
He returned to England as he had not been paid .
Made appearances publicising his exploits , in London.
Looks like I was REALLY mixed up.
( not the first time)
It is remembering what was in the pack of one the searchers ,UGH!,who had
lost his mind .
I won’t sleep now!
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An interesting piece about Peterloo here, https://jon-chadwick.com/author/jonnychadwick/
It also gives info about the less pleasant members of my extended family. If you scroll it is about a third of the way down.
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I don't think it has been mentioned yet, but two years before this event, another group assembled in St Peters fields. The Blanketeers. They were estimated to be between 5 - 10,000 strong. The plan was to march to London with a petition.
They too were charged by cavalry and subject to arrest. In the end only one man made the full journey. It achieved nothing.
They are largely forgotten today, in part due to events two years later.
Actually they did frighten the powers that be a little. One result was to increase part time formations such as the one used in 1819.
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I knew of The Blanketeers and thought about the Jarrow marches ,much later, during the depression years,especially the 1930’s, marching to London to protest about lack of employment in the shipyards ,but as there was widespread unemployment in Britain and no real relief they were joined by many others.
And that was the “Country fit for heroes”promised after WW1 to the surviving soldiers !
Not sure about the meeting on Kersal Moor,must get details,we certainly were not told about that at school.
Viktoria.
Thanks for all the info.
Viktoria.
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Went to a lecture this week at our local Heritage Society.
Given by a City of Manchester Official,BlueBadgerGuide.
Lots of interesting facts but one chilling one was the use of the 1796
Light Cavalry Sabre.
Waterloo issue.
It is rather broader at the curved tip and is a fearsome weapon.
It was sharpened/ honed to the same sharpness as at Waterloo,where it was
so effective the French Commanders complained to Wellington about it!
To have troops go out armed with such a weapon against unarmed people including women and children showed the Magistrates ‘ intent that day.
The blade is somewhat broader at the end and so effective that it cut a dead pig in half across then vertically and the head was completely split , in the video I watched later on google.
It cut through brass helmets at Waterloo.
I am not sure if the French expected our troops to use blunt weapons :P
but they did complain about this one.
There were many slides of artifacts from the day and one person, not present the other night but resident in our town is the direct descendant
of Mary Fildes ,the woman on the hustings with Henry Hunt.
The child trampled by the Yeomanry ,who was the first fatality ,we saw a photograph of his burial entry.
His mother was stated as contributing to his death because the troops had all passed but for one straggler who knocked into her and she let the child fall the as the horse came up from behind and collided with her.!
Lots more and it showed how accurate was the account which was my first reading of the event.
There are several exhibitions and I must go.
What was really surprising was the number of people who had no knowledge of Peterloo,even though they were at school in Manchester and Salford.
I suppose it depended what was on the curriculum .
I must also correct myself, The Ford Maddox Browne murals do not include scenes from Peterloo,but things starting from the Roman settlement of Manchester right through to the industrialisation.
Peterloo was still a Taboo subject in Manchester at the time the murals were being painted!
Viktoria.
horse
burial certificate
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I told you about the deadly 1796 pattern light cavalry sabre in reply 43. The 15th Hussars carried the same weapon. If they had used the edge there would have been hundreds of deaths. The practice was to hit the shoulder with the flat of the sabre.
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I have just re read the previous posts Regorian, I did not remember what you had said about the 1796 sabre. So sorry for the duplication.
Have you seen the video re the sabre?Not for the faint hearted!
But they were freshly sharpened, and even an intentioned flat smack could go wrong in such crowded conditions,and if not intended to be used for its purpose ,why sharpen?
A very interesting subject.
I wonder if the little boy Fildes killed by the horse was any relation to the Mary Fildes who was on the hustings ?
Thanks again
Viktoria.