RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: yeahyeah121212 on Saturday 30 March 19 18:26 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I have recently gone back on my grandmother's side, and while researching a bit, a particular family linked to one of my great x something grandmothers has come up. The Coopers of Kingsclere. I found a website made by another woman, and she stated that they could possibly be of Romany origin. I will copy what she has said here.
"I haven't found a better alternative to Richard of Woodcot so haven't ruled out the possibility that the Coopers have Romany origins. The earliest baptisms (ca 1650) recorded in 'clere co-incided with the period Romany families were moving into the south of England and there is a long tradition of Hampshire Coopers especially in the New Forest area. Kingsclere Dell has traditionally been associated with gypsies so it would not be unusual to find a Romany Cooper family settling there. Was Richard born and baptised (possibly several times) elsewhere?"
This is the information I have for Richard:
Born 1758, Woodcott, Hampshire
Died December 1827, Kingsclere, Hampshire
Married Judith Buxey on 14 May 1786.
Judith was born 1759 and died 1835.
If anyone could give me a bit of assistance with this, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
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I'm sure you will get some help with this request, but you already have several threads on the go awaiting a response from you. You have asked for people's opinions on various topics - it seems you have few loose ends to tie up on those threads.
My advice would be to do your own research and don't take too much notice of things you find on the internet. The section you quoted sounds like whoever wrote it is just throwing ideas around rather than giving any facts. You can make up any story that takes your fancy about any ancestors - whether it is true or not is another question.
The names and dates you have given above - what led you to these?
Is Richard's surname Cooper?
Did you get to Richard via one of his children? Can you provide details? Names? Dates? Places?
As you are looking at pre census and parish registers which generally contain little information, and Cooper is a very common surname, how can you be certain you are following the correct families?
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Have you seen the actual Parish Register for Richards Burial? FreeREG has him age 80.
Burial;
26 Dec 1827, St Mary, Kingsclere
RICHARD Cooper age 80
Birth c 1747******
JUDITH buried 25 May 1835 age 60
So Richard older than you state?
Childrens Baptisms
Elizabeth COOPER 3 Apr 1787
John COOPER 26 Apr 1788
Sarah COOPER 5 Dec 1789
Robert COOPER 29 Jul 1792
Joannah COOPER 26 Apr 1794
James COOPER 14 Oct 1798
William COOPER 15 Jun 1800
James COOPER 21 Feb 1802
Father a Labourer on most.
Trish :)
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A ROBERT Cooper of Woodcote* married Frances HUTCHINS 4 Dec 1788 St Mary, Kingsclere
A JACOB Cooper was a Witness.
Cant find anything else on them there, no Bapt/Burials
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"Crazy", you said:
Richard Cooper - born 1758 - died 1827
Judith Buxey - born 1759 - died 1835
Richard and Judith married in 1786.
Trish found the following:
Richard Cooper burial 1827 age 80 therefore born 1747 NOT 1758.
Judith Cooper burial 1835 age 60 therefore born 1775 NOT 1759.
IF this is the correct Richard and Judith and their ages at death are about right, even allowing for some leeway, that would mean that Richard, born in 1747, would be (about) 39 when he married Judith in 1786 and Judith, born 1775, would be (about) 11 when she married Richard.
What trail led you to this particular Richard and Judith?
Which of their children are you descended from if any? The connection you mentioned does not tell us if you are a direct descendant or if this is some kind of side branch of your direct family.
Can you clarify please?
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I presume you found Judith's baptism on Freereg?
Kingsclere St Mary
Judith Buxey
9 Dec 1759
Father: Robert
Mother: Judith
Possibly the marriage of the parents:
Kingsclere St Mary
25 Dec 1758
Robert Buxey otp
Judith Smith otp
Who are the Richard and Judith buried in 1827 and 1835?
Added:
What is your source for the birth/baptism of Richard Cooper in 1758? I can't seem to find it. :-\
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Richard Cooper
Born about 1747 - Woodcott
Baptized 14 October 1758 - Woodcott
Died in December 1827 - Kingsclere Dell
Age at death: possibly 80 years old
Buried 26 December 1827 - St. Mary, Kingsclere
Parents
Richard Cooper c 1716-1786
Mary unknown c 1785
Married 14 May 1786, St. Mary, Kingsclere, to Judith Buxey c 1759-1835
witness: Edward Jacob
Children
Elizabeth c 1787-1787
John c 1788-1850
Sarah c 1789-1844
Robert c 1792-1836
Joannah c 1794-
Ann c 1796-
James c 1798-ca 1799
William c 1800-ca 1867
James c 1802-1835
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Is that information from an online tree Solidrock? :)
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Is that information from an online tree Solidrock? :)
http://www.kingsclere.org.uk/contents.html
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Is that information from an online tree Solidrock? :)
http://www.kingsclere.org.uk/contents.html
Thanks. :)
A few anomalies it seems.
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Richard Cooper
Born about 1747 - Woodcott
Baptized 14 October 1758 - Woodcott
Died in December 1827 - Kingsclere Dell
Age at death: possibly 80 years old
Buried 26 December 1827 - St. Mary, Kingsclere
Parents
Richard Cooper c 1716-1786
Mary unknown c 1785
.A note says the tree compiler has no proof that Richard born c.1716 was father of Richard born about 1747.
I'm doubtful about Richard born c.1747 being baptised aged 11.
Mary c.1785. I assume this was year of death.
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I can't find any by the name of Cooper baptised in Kingsclere between about 1710 and 1769. I've checked two different transcriptions.
Nell
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Is that information from an online tree Solidrock? :)
http://www.kingsclere.org.uk/contents.html
"Richard Cooper born about February 1716 Woodcot
Baptised 4th March 1717 Woodcot"
I wonder if "February 1716" was 1716/17 old style calendar, rather than Richard baptised aged 11 months?
A note says the tree compiler has no proof that Richard born c.1716 was father of Richard born about 1747.
and continues " or that the Woodcot Coopers originated in Kingsclere" .
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"I haven't found a better alternative to Richard of Woodcot so haven't ruled out the possibility that the Coopers have Romany origins. The earliest baptisms (ca 1650) recorded in 'clere co-incided with the period Romany families were moving into the south of England and there is a long tradition of Hampshire Coopers especially in the New Forest area. Kingsclere Dell has traditionally been associated with gypsies so it would not be unusual to find a Romany Cooper family settling there. Was Richard born and baptised (possibly several times) elsewhere?"
This period is very difficult for family history research - English Civil War followed by Commonwealth interregnum.
Would you explain/expand on Richard Cooper's multiple baptisms?
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Richard Cooper, son of William & Jane Cooper baptised Woodcott 4 Mar 1716/17
The new year began on 25 March at that date so February 1716 would theoretically only be weeks before his baptism. Very few people wrote the double date at that time - that only became prevalent later.
There are also a number of Couper and Coper baptisms in Woodcott in the first part of the 1700s. In some instances it is obvious that there is one couple by the names of Richard & Mary, but the surname is not recorded consistently.
Richard son of Richard and Mary Cooper was baptised at Woodcott 14 Oct 1758. Nothing in the transcription to say that he was not an infant. There was an Eli two years later in 1760 and a Sara (where the surname is Coper) in 1756. The first child born to these parents at Woodcott seems to have been William (would fit with Richard's father's name being William) baptised in March 1744/45 recorded as Couper, then Mary recorded as Coper in Dec 1746, followed by Elizabeth in Feb 1750. So Richard and Mary may have stayed within the bounds of Woodcott for a few years.
Possible marriages:
Richard Cooper m Mary Ledgard at St Mary Bourne 6 Aug 1738 but this may be too early for her to be the same Mary having children in 1760 - 22 years is a long time.
William Couper married Jean Friggins 27 Dec 1708 at Woodcott.
Nell
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Richard Cooper, son of William & Jane Cooper baptised Woodcott 4 Mar 1716/17
The new year began on 25 March at that date so February 1716 would theoretically only be weeks before his baptism. Very few people wrote the double date at that time - that only became prevalent later.
There are also a number of Couper and Coper baptisms in Woodcott in the first part of the 1700s. In some instances it is obvious that there is one couple by the names of Richard & Mary, but the surname is not recorded consistently.
Richard son of Richard and Mary Cooper was baptised at Woodcott 14 Oct 1758. Nothing in the transcription to say that he was not an infant. There was an Eli two years later in 1760 and a Sara (where the surname is Coper) in 1756. The first child born to these parents at Woodcott seems to have been William (would fit with Richard's father's name being William) baptised in March 1744/45 recorded as Couper, then Mary recorded as Coper in Dec 1746, followed by Elizabeth in Feb 1750. So Richard and Mary may have stayed within the bounds of Woodcott for a few years.
Possible marriages:
Richard Cooper m Mary Ledgard at St Mary Bourne 6 Aug 1738 but this may be too early for her to be the same Mary having children in 1760 - 22 years is a long time.
William Couper married Jean Friggins 27 Dec 1708 at Woodcott.
Nell
Ah thank you. This sheds some more light on stuff.