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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Poppy Rose on Wednesday 27 March 19 15:42 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I am not a relative, but I have been trying to help a descendant of Leviathan Draper. Leviathan was the Leviathan that lived with Ambrose Thorpe as his wife.
If we have it right we have Joseph Draper as her father, another Joseph Draper, a musician, as her grandfather, and Samuel Draper as her great grandfather, but have a few questions relating to the last two generations.
From Familysearch Samuel Draper, with Margaret/Peggy, appears to have been the father of Favoridge 1788, Hannah 1795, Susanna 1795, Joseph 1798, Kaisa 1800, James 1806, and Ambrose 1808.
Both Joseph Draper, and also Hannah Draper, above, have turned up in some census returns, and some newspapers, but nothing has been found so far relating to any of their siblings. If anyone knows anything at all about those siblings we would be very interested.
In the 1861 Hertfordshire census is a younger Samuel Draper, also with a Margaret, plus three children. He turns up in the newspapers, too. This Samuel died in 1870 while camping on Bernard's Heath, St. Albans. A newspaper gave his age as 82, but when his death was registered it was put down to 80. Samuel was a fiddle player. Could he, by any chance, have been another son of the older Samuel?
In the 1851 census, on FamilySearch, unmarried Hannah Draper has a niece Kelly Draper, aged 4, and a nephew Elias Draper, aged 9, staying with her. Does anyone know who their parents were?
In the several census returns for Hitchin there was another Elias Draper. This one was born about 1812 or 13, and was a musician. He died in 1890, aged 78. Could he have been a relative of the older Samuel?
And one last question. Has anyone come across the baptism of the older Samuel Draper?
Lots of questions! Thank you for reading them. Hoping someone can help us out with some of them.
:)
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Hi Poppy Rose
I have been researching and compiling a database of Romany Draper references for many decades. Give me a couple of days and I can come back to you with some details about the people you mention.
It's good to make contact with another Draper researcher: we seem to be few and far between.
More soon
Sharon
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Thank you very much Sharon for your reply. Looking forward to the next one. :)
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Hi Poppy Rose
I think it might be simpler to answer each of your questions in a separate post so here is my response to this one: <<In the several census returns for Hitchin there was another Elias Draper. This one was born about 1812 or 13, and was a musician. He died in 1890, aged 78. Could he have been a relative of the older Samuel?>>
This Elias was, I believe, baptised as Goliah Draper in Flamstead, Herts, on 7 March 1813, son of Edward and Mary Ann Draper; occupation: Poor pedlar or gipsey; abode - Traveller, uncertain.
Elias married firstly Christiana Shaw on 19 Feb 1838 at St Paul's, Bedford, where he is described a musician, son of Edward, musician; and Christiana is a pedlar, daughter of James Shaw, musician.
Christiana died the following year aged only 21. Elias then married Sarah Day in Hitchin on 28 January 1841, described as a widower, musician, son of Edward, a musician.
Elias' parents - Edward and Mary Ann - also had: a son Randolph, baptised 1807 in Hemel Hempstead; a daughter Caroline, baptised 1810 in Flamstead; a son Divaris, baptised in Caddington, Bedfordshire in 1815. There is also a Hezekiah, baptised by the surname Carey in Higham Gobion, Northants, in 1804, with parents Edward and Mary, and included here because members of the Draper family in this region were known to sometimes use Carey as an alias.
The current hypothesis is that this Edward Draper was the brother of Favouridge, Hannah, Susanna, Joseph, Kaisa, James and Ambrose and the son of the older Samuel and Margaret but we don't as yet have a confirmed baptism for him. There is one possibility, yet to be checked in the original register, a transcribed entry on Find My Past for an Edward Draper baptised on 26 August 1781, Haverhill, Suffolk, son of Esau and Margaret, Travellers. Perhaps the transcriber has mis-read the father's name or the vicar mis-heard it?
Hope this helps for starters. :)
Sharon
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Thank you Sharon for sharing your research, and yes it is helpful and also very interesting. :)
I had a feeling Elias of Hitchin, the musician, belonged somewhere in the Draper family, but I couldn't work out where he fitted in from the online records. The Drapers look to have been a rather talented family, and now, most likely, with the addition of Edward, the father of Elias/Goliah, there is one more musician.
The baptism of Edward son of Esau and Margaret in Haverhill seems interesting. Perhaps Esau is actually a badly written Sam, or, like some of the others in the family, it could have been an alternative name he used now and again. While looking through the old newspapers I was surprised to find that Leviathan's father, as you most likely know, turned up at various times as Joseph Clarke, Joseph Draper, Jeremiah Shaw and Josiah Smith. Very helpfully, though, the Chelmsford Chronicle reported that last three names all belonged to the same man.
Thank you again. Looking forward to part two.
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Hi Poppy Rose
Here is the second instalment, in response to your question <<From Familysearch Samuel Draper, with Margaret/Peggy, appears to have been the father of Favoridge 1788, Hannah 1795, Susanna 1795, Joseph 1798, Kaisa 1800, James 1806, and Ambrose 1808....If anyone knows anything at all about those siblings we would be very interested.>>
For Favouridge Draper, I have that she was baptised on 15 December 1788 at Cottered, Hertfordshire, daughter of Samuel and Margaret Draper, who were described as 'travellers, pauper'. I believe she became the partner of Saunders Smith and was buried at St Nicholas, Stevenage, Herts, in 1826, being described as 38 years old and being brought from Ippolitts.
For Hannah Draper, I have that she was baptised on 20 March 1795, Manuden, Essex, daughter of Samuel and Margaret Draper. There are no other details in this baptism.
For James Draper, I have that he was baptised on 9 March 1806, Tewin, Herts, son of Samuel and Margaret Draper, recorded as being travelling people. He was tried for horse stealing at Herts Assizes in July 1830 and was first sentenced to death and then reprieved and sentenced to transportation for life. He travelled to New South Wales in 1831 to serve his sentence and was given a Conditional Pardon in 1848 on the basis that he was free but not allowed to return to the UK. So we assume that he stayed in Australia.
For Ambrose Draper: he was baptised at Aston, Herts, on 30 June 1808, son of Samuel and Margaret Draper, described as 'vagrants'. He was buried on 26 May 1830 in Aston, aged 21, being described as being of Aston End.
For Joseph Draper: he was baptised on 29 April 1798 at St Michael's, Bishop's Stortford, Herts, being born the previous day. There is no other information in register relating to him – but none is given for any child's baptism in this period. He died on 5 January 1877 at Fisher’s Green, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, aged 83, described as A Day Labourer. Cause of death: Age Climacteric Disease. Informant: Ann Draper, Widow of Deceased, Present at the Death, Fisher’s Green, Stevenage.
This wife Ann - Joseph's second wife - claims Dunton in Bedfordshire as her birthplace in the 1881 census, meaning that she could be the Ann Smith who was baptised in Dunton, Beds, on 9 May 1802, daughter of James and Mary Smith, travellers. Ann died on 24 November 1887 at the Union Workhouse, Hitchin, Hertfordshire, aged 86, described as ‘widow of Joseph Draper, A Hawker of Stevenage. Cause of death: Senile Decay. Informant: Alfred Fowler, Master of Workhouse, Hitchin’.
I don't have any information on Kaisa or Susanne apart from their baptisms. Kaisa was baptised on 14 Dec 1800 at Ayot St Peter, Herts, 'born on 8 Nov 1800', daughter of Samll and Margaret Draper. Susanne (name spelt like that) was baptised on 20 December 1795 at Ardley, Herts, daughter of Samuel and Peggy Draper. There is no further information in the entry.
More answers soon.
Sharon
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Thank you very much Sharon. :)
I had wondered why no records for James Draper were turning up in Britain. It now appears he wasn't even in the country, and with Favouridge and Ambrose sadly dying young they, too, had gone before the early census returns. That also means that neither James or Ambrose could have been the father of Hannah Draper's niece and nephew, that were living with her in the 1851 census.
I have noticed that the younger Samuel and Margaret Draper had the birth of an unnamed daughter registered in 1846. She would have been the right age for Hannah's niece. Interestingly that same Samuel and Margaret had with them, in the 1861 census, a daughter named Hannah, besides a son Edward, and a younger daughter, Famebridge.
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Hi Poppy Rose
Here is another Draper instalment, this time concerning the Samuel Draper, with a wife Margaret, who can be found in 1851 and 1861 censuses in King's Walden, Hertfordshire with his children. I have one baptism that could possibly be his but, if it is his, then he is not a son of the older Samuel. Here's the baptism:
Sam and Rychus Draper, sons of Sibby Draper, bp 8 Aug 1799, Kensworth, Beds/Herts. Mother described as being of Newton, Bucks. Rychus died a few months later and was buried 4 October 1799, Wavendon, Bucks, described as 'infant'.
The other information I have on Sam the fiddler is:
Died 10 January 1870, Bernards Heath, St Albans, described as musician aged 80 [Source: death certificate]. Buried St Peter's churchyard, St Albans, 12 January 1870 described as 'of St Michael's aged 80' [Source: original parish register]. As you know in the Herts Advertiser, "Jan. 10, in a tent, on Bernard's heath, St Alban's, Samuel Draper, aged 82". A little later that year, there's the following obituary for him in the Luton Times and Advertiser, Saturday 28 May 1870:
“STOTFOLD
Died recently at the above place Samuel Draper, better known as “Old Sam Draper,” a gipsy fiddler, who will be remembered by the people of Herts. And Beds. The old man breathed his last at this village, and bequeathed £205 5s. in the bank to his widow and to an old friend that now lives in Luton practising medicine, a dozen clothes pegs and his portrait.”
Sam and Margaret's children were:
Ann Sicilian Draper, baptised 5 Sept 1830, Little Brickhill, Bucks, daughter of Samuel and Margaret Draper, described as being ‘of Little Brickhill, Gypsies’. She married a James Shaw and is in the same encampment as her parents in King's Walden, Herts, in the 1851 census, recorded as 'Salena Shaw'.
Margaret Draper who was born in about 1833. Nothing more known - but she could possibly be the Margaret Draper, described as a Spinster Gipsey, living in a tent, who has a son Samuel baptised on 14 Feb 1874 in Ardeley, Hertfordshire.
Ambrose Draper, probably the Ambrose Draper, son of Samuel and Christiana Draper, who was baptised 3 June 1838, Gt Wymondley, Herts, father described as traveller of Gt Wymondley. Perhaps the minister was mistaken or confused about the mother's name. Ambrose, like his brother Edward below, had numerous brushes with the law and frequently appears in newspaper reports, sometimes with his brother. He was a well-known fiddle player.
Hannah Draper, born about 1840. Nothing more known - but she could be the mother of a child called 'Cambridge' - perhaps a mistake for 'Famebridge'? - whose death is registered on 11 April 1871 in Loughton, Essex, described as a daughter of Hannah Draper, aged 1 year 10 months.
Edward Draper, baptised 18 Feb 1844, Wheathampstead, Herts, son of Samuel and Margaret Draper, father described as 'wandering, fidler'. Edward like Ambrose had several brushes with the law - sometimes with his brother - and is frequently mentioned in crime reports in local newspapers. In 1864 he was imprisoned in Bedford Gaol and the Bedford Record Office holds a photo of him in the Gaol register. He too was a well-known fiddle player.
Famebridge Draper, born 8 Jan 1850, White Way Bottom, King's Walden, daughter of Samuel Draper, Gypsy, and Margaret nee Pierce. She died 6 Oct 1866, St Bernard's Heath, St Albans, aged 16, and was buried at St Peter's, St Albans, described as being of St Michael's.
Sam Draper - known as 'Sammy' - was widely known and admired for his fiddle playing. Photos, paintings and drawings exist of him: for example on the cover of the book My Ancestors were Gypsies, published by the Society of Genealogists; in a major oil painting by Samuel Lucas held at Hitchin Art Gallery where Sam and his donkey are in the centre foreground; and other sketches and paintings of him and members of his family held in the archives in the same Gallery.
Sam's wife Margaret was living in Hitchin Union Workhouse in 1881, described as a widow aged 77, a Travelling Gipsy, born Warden, Bedfordshire. She died in Welwyn Workhouse in 1888, described as the widow of Samuel Draper, a Travelling Musician of Welwyn.
Finally for this time, I don't have any possible baptisms for the older Samuel, the father of Favouridge etc. The only early reference I have to a Samuel is the burial of a man of that name on 5 October 1824 in Weston, Herts, described as 'a stroller without any fixed place of abode, aged 93 years' - but I don't know who he is.
Sharon
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Hi Poppy Rose
The Samuel Lucas painting that I referred to just now that is held at Hitchin Art Gallery and that features Sam Draper, can be viewed on Twitter here, with Sam, his wife Margaret and his son Ambrose helpfully labelled:
https://twitter.com/nhertsmuseum/status/844854376787148801?lang=es
Sharon
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Hi Poppy Rose
And, the last instalment, in answer to your question <<In the 1851 census, on FamilySearch, unmarried Hannah Draper has a niece Kelly Draper, aged 4, and a nephew Elias Draper, aged 9, staying with her. Does anyone know who their parents were?>>
I believe the niece's name is Relly rather than Kelly, perhaps short for Mirelli or Marella which is a forename found in the Draper family. Relly can be found as an adult as the partner of one Francis Kemp. In online census indexes, her name is spelt as Rahilly in 1881, Reily in 1891 and Ratty in 1901. She has a daughter called Fambridge with her in 1881, aged one, who in later censuses becomes 'Fanny' and 'Amy'. As 'Ralley Kemp', she dies in 1903 in Epping Forest Registration District aged 55.
There is one theory that Relly and Elias were the children of a Mirelli Draper, the daughter of Edward Draper and Frances Brinkley, who was baptised on 27 October 1822 at King's Walden, Herts. Mirelli married Edward Shaw at Holy Trinity, Cambridge, on 10 May 1846. No baptisms have so far been traced for any children of the couple - but it would make sense for a mother called Mirelli to name a daughter after herself, albeit in the shortened form of 'Relly'.
Edward, the father of the 1822 Mirelli, could be the same man who fathered the Draper children Goliah/Elias, Caroline, Randolph and Diverus and Hezekiah Carey that I listed in my first response, their mother being Mary/Mary Ann. Perhaps Mary died after the birth of Diverus and Edward then had Mirelli by a new partner?
Sorry to say, I have no record of the identity of the Elias Draper born c1842 or what happened to him after the 1851 census.
All good wishes
Sharon
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While i have been researching i came across some records of the Drapers, if you find the fuller articles in the Archives of the Newspapers there is much information in these storys, lots of names and locations
Tuesday 24 January 1939
Leighton Buzzard Observer and Linslade Gazette
Bedfordshire
MR. NELSON DRAPER A TRAVELLING CUTLER
A well-known figure in a wide area around Leighton Buzzard, Mr. Nelson Draper, aged 78 years, of 52. Bassett Road, Leighton Buzzard, died on Friday after two month’s illness. The only travelling cutler in the town
Tuesday 31 January 1939
Leighton Buzzard Observer and Linslade Gazette
Bedfordshire
MR. NELSON DRAPER'S FUNERAL
Mr. Nelson Draper, aged 78 years, of 52, Bassett Road, Leighton Buzzard, was laid to rest in Leighton Buzzard Cemetery on Tuesday, the Rev. J. R. Paget conducting the service
Friday 18 June 1937
Biggleswade Chronicle
Bedfordshire
A VETERAN GIPSY
One notable person in the history of Arlesey was Elizabeth Draper, gipsy, w'ho died in 1799 under a hedge, at the age ot 108. Her favourite pet was a white donkey.It was said she hadn’t slept in bed for 70 years. Her husband was a fiddler and
Saturday 28 May 1870
Luton Times and Advertiser
Bedfordshire
STOTFOLD.
Died recently at the above place, Samuel Draper, better known as Old Sam Draper. Gipsy fiddler, who will remembered by the people of Herts, and Beds. The old man breathed his last at this village, and bequeathed £205 in the bank to his widow
Friday 25 November 1859
Shrewsbury Chronicle
Shropshire
deeply lamented. 17th inst., in frail tent, on Homer-common, near Much Wenlock, aged 86, Righteous Draper, an old gipsy. His old widow, 83, refusing the blessings of the union-house, on Monday placed the tent and other worldly goods on ...
Friday 31 January 1902
Exeter and Plymouth Gazette
Devon
The death has occurred in Reading of Frederick Draper, aged 105. Draper was a gipsy, he resided with his son, now eightysix years of age, in a cottage near Whitley Woods. His wife died fifty years since
Saturday 12 March 1859
Berkshire Chronicle
Berkshire, England
the body of Sibilena Draper, a gipsy woman, who, if the statement of the husband can be relied on, would have attained the extraordinary age 109 years next month.' About a fortnight since the deceased and her husband, George Draper, with a daughter, camped
Saturday 24 August 1878
Pontypool Free Press
Monmouthshire
coroner, W. Lewis, Esq., touching the death of Israel Draper, a gipsy, who was over 100 years of age, and well known and respected in the locality. The only evidence given was that of Selina Draper, daughter of the deceased— herself about 60 years of age-who
Friday 11 May 1934
Diss Express
Norfolk
FUNERAL OF AGED GIPSY sinfi slender
... . Messrs. Edward Brown and Horace Barham (sons-in-law). Mrs. Mimmy Slender (daughter-in-law); Messrs. George Draper. Edward Draper. L. Draper. R. Barham, Mrs. W Wilson. Mrs. Gray. Mr. Gray. Mr. Edward Jarrell. Mr. J. Lamb. Mr. Palmer and Mr. and Mrs. ...
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In all the notes i had there was Elias Drapers, so as you said you was looking for notes about an Elias i have put on the extracts
Friday 01 June 1888
Herts & Cambs Reporter & Royston Crow
Hertfordshire
Elias Draper was summoned for assaulting Jacob and Alfred Gardner, members of the Salvation Army, on the 11th of October, 1886. It was stated that Draper had been travelling about the country
Friday 18 February 1898
Herts & Cambs Reporter & Royston Crow
Hertfordshire
Arehetaus Smith, Elias Draper, and Edward Brinkley, described as gipeies, were summoned for trespassing in search of conies
Monday 26 February 1900
Cambridge Daily News
Cambridgeshire
A Gipsy Trouble. Elias Draper (30), gipsy, pleaded guilty to charge of damaging the roadway at the Broadway, Harlow, by driving stakes and poles thereon
Saturday 21 August 1841
Bedfordshire Mercury
Bedfordshire
BIGGLESWADE PETTY SESSIONS. Present Ret. J. Hull; F, Pyrn, Esq.; and S. Thornton, Esq. Nelson and Elias Draper were bound over in the sum of £2O to appear at the Quarter Sessions, Bedford, to answer to a charge of prise fighting, at Sandy
Saturday 20 July 1895
Bedfordshire Times and Independent
Bedfordshire
Elias Draper, dealer, of Eaton Socon, did not appear to answer charge of using threats towards John Woods at Eaton Socon.—The case was remanded
Saturday 09 August 1884
Cambridge Independent Press
Cambridgeshire
alias Thomas Jones, a travelling gipsy, was summoned for assaulting Elias Draper, another travelling gipsy, at Ramsey, on the Ist of August. The case was dismissed.—The same defendant for assaulting Caroline Smith, a gipsy, on the same day, was fined Is. and lls. costs. Summonses against Elias Draper and Divirus
Saturday 31 August 1889
Herts Advertiser
Hertfordshire
SHENLEY. Stealing Partridge Eggs —At the Barnet Petty Sessions, on Monday, Elias Draper (68), gipsy, was fined 3s., with 8s. costs, for stealing six partridge eggs from a nest a field at Shenley
Friday 25 October 1895
Cambridge Independent Press
Cambridgeshire
Snaring. Elias Draper, also a travelling hawker, was fined 20s. and costs for using snare for the purpose of taking game
Saturday 21 June 1884
Essex Newsman
Essex
Damaging a Plantation.— Elias Draper, alias Harris, a boy, a travelling hawker, was charged with cutting certain trees
Saturday 24 October 1868
Hertford Mercury and Reformer
Hertfordshire
Stealing Lord Lytton's Boat Cover. Elias Draper, aged 17, of Cambridge, described as a gipsey who travels with a van
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Hi Panished
Many thanks for all these - some I knew about, some I didn't. So good additions to my database.
All good wishes
Sharon
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Thank you Sharon and Panished. :)
Lots to go through. Unable to this evening, but I will do a.s.a.p. and get back to you in a day or so. All very much appreciated. :)
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Just wondered if you have been able to digest all the Draper material in the past four weeks and if you have any questions or comments?
Any information you have relating to these families would be very welcome. Thank you.
Sharon
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Hello Sharon
Apologies for not getting back to you sooner. I had to put family history research "on hold" for a few weeks.
I have recently started going back through the online newspaper archive to see if anything new has been added for the family of Samuel and Margaret/Peggy, but all I can see is what I had before, just a couple of Petty Session appearances, both mentioned in the Hereford Mercury, for their daughter Hannah Draper (b.1795). In the newspaper of 1847 17th April Hannah was fined, for breaking a hedge, at Hitchin Sessions, and in the paper of 1862 30th August, at Stevenage Sessions, she was fined for stealing peas. Again in the Hertford Mercury newspaper, 1837 23 December, a Joseph Draper appeared at Hitchin Sessions. This may, or may not, have been Joseph (b.1798), the brother of Hannah. He was fined £5, which he paid, for coursing a hare with another man and two dogs.
I have also been trying to work out who the Ann Draper was that lived with the Joseph mentioned above, and his wife. In the 1841 census this Ann was recorded as 5 years old, and aged 15 in the 1851 census, and the daughter of Joseph, but in the next two census returns she was recorded as his niece. The 1851 and 1861 census returns gives her birthplace as Harpenden, Hertfordshire.
The pictures of Samuel Draper are very interesting. It is always nice to put a face to a name, and I have now found the 1851 census for him and his family that I hadn't come across before, so thank you for pointing that out.
:)
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Hello there, Looking for my mother in law. Her father was Cinderella Parker’s son and believed to be Cush butlers son. His name was ‘spence draper’. He never knew who his father was and never had a birth certificate.
Thank you
Shannon
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Hi Shannon. Cinderella was my 3 x great aunt. I am intouch with some of the family. Cinderella and Riley did have a cush but i dont have much info on him on the tree.
There is a spencer Draper in the family bn in 1910 but he was the son of Israel Draper and Saney Butler. This Spencer was with a cousin Poppy Parker she was a daug of Cinderella and Riley and they had a son also called Spencer he was born in 1940 and died in 1988. He was with violet Parker another relation, i do have a list of there children. The Parker/Draper/Loveridge tree is very tangled. If this is the Spencer you mean i can see if i have any more information or if i can get more for you.
Tracey
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Hi everyone my brother has just done our family tree. my dad was Aaron parker his dad was riely parker his mum cinderella parker unfortunately he died in 2004 aged 84 he had brothers and sister all I belive now passed are there any cousins around or even more brothers and sisters of mine I never met my dad or grandparents any help would be very welcome I look forward to any information we are on ancestry as well
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Hi, I am very interested in the Draper family as I am directly related:-
John Draper
1790–1885
BIRTH ABT. 1790 • walkern hertfordshire england
DEATH 1885 • Hertford, Hertfordshire
4th great-grandfather
Does anyone have any information about John or his family What is Gypsy Sams date of birth as there are alot of Samuels Drapers in my tree!!
Thanks
Sam