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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Siouxsie on Tuesday 19 March 19 06:58 GMT (UK)
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Hoping someone can help me with a South Australian lookup.
I am hoping to work out if either of the these two James WILLIAMS is my 2nd great grandfather.
1886 157/58 WILLIAMS James Frome
1887 161/208 WILLIAMS James Adelaide
Many thanks,
Siouxsie
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James WILLIAMS aged 74y from Hallett died in hospital at Pt Augusta on 31 July 1886.
James WILLIAMS aged 80y, late of Alberton, and formerly of North Adelaide, died 20 February 1887 at North Unley.
Rhonda
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Many thanks Rhonda........that rules them out then!
Siouxsie
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I am still chasing my James Arthur Williams.
I know he married Elizabeth Amelia Palin on 12 May 1885 in Moonta SA.
I do not have a birth date for him, but his wife lists him as 28 in her deserting wife claim in the 1889 Police Gazette. Not sure if she means that he was 28 in 1889, or 28 when he deserted in 1885.
His daughter, Elizabeth Annie was born on 5 Jan 1886 in Maitland SA.
He is the key to one whole strand of my tree, and I would love to crack the mystery, and SA records are not digitally accessible.
Any clues, hints, directions, suggestions?
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"he married Elizabeth Amelia Palin on 12 May 1885 in Moonta SA"
Can you please list all the information on the marriage certificate.
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Ancestry Police Gazette South Australia
December 25 1889
James Arthur WILLIAMS, age 28 height 5 foot 6 inches, dark complexion, dark hair, whiskers beard and moustache, black eyes, large nose, anchor tattooed on each arm, for deserting his wife (Amelia Williams) at Moonta in September 1885.
And one child?
BDM SA
WILLIAMS Elizabeth Annie
Father: James Arthur WILLIAMS @ Daly 366/361 1886
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Many thanks Wivenhoe . Yes, that is the description from the Police Gazette, and yes, Annie Elizabeth is listed as his child.
I know they got married at the Wesleyan Parsonage in Moonta, and that the registration number is 143/701.
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Groom: WILLIAMS James Auarthur
Bride: PALIN Amelia Elizabeth
Groom Age: 24
Groom Marital Status: S
Groom Father: James Edward WILLIAMS
Essie
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Name James Arthur Williams
Event Type Burial
Event Date 1917
Event Place Adelaide, Adelaide City, South Australia, Australia
Event Place (Original) Adelaide, Adelaide City, South Australia, Australia
Photograph Included N
Death Date 09 Jun 1917
Cemetery West Terrace Cemetery
Affiliate Record Identifier 167424290
Affiliate Image Identifier 167424290
from Familysearch.org but can find no further details e.g age.
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Name James Arthur Williams
Event Type Burial
Event Date 1917
Event Place Adelaide, Adelaide City, South Australia, Australia
Event Place (Original) Adelaide, Adelaide City, South Australia, Australia
Photograph Included N
Death Date 09 Jun 1917
Cemetery West Terrace Cemetery
Affiliate Record Identifier 167424290
Affiliate Image Identifier 167424290
from Familysearch.org but can find no further details e.g age.
This is a burial for a three year old child.
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Hi
have a look at this site
https://aca.sa.gov.au/records/
seems that the person buried 9.6.1917 was aged 3 yrs, another person buried in same grave Ida Wilson 10.1.1884
Cass
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Since his marriage record has been transcribed with his name James Auarthur Williams, was this a transcription error to his middle name or is his actual middle name Auarthur or similar?
If it is correct, then there is an entry in Trove in 1891 showing the birth of a son to a James Anarther Williams in Maitland.
"WILLIAMS.—On the 1st May, at Maitland, the wife of James Anarther (more plausible than Auarthur) Williams, of a son."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/24797327?searchTerm=%22james%20williams%22%20Maitland
Is this the same person and if so, was he found and forced to go back to his wife or is it a different wife?
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At online tree on Ancestry, a second marriage for Elizabeth Amelia, 11 Oct 1890 to Henry Edwin HOPKINS.
We need some sort of documentation with information about James A**thur WILLIAMS.
Who is informant for birth registration of daughter Elizabeth Annie, 1886?
The marriage record, 1885, would give an occupation, his age, his father's name, and names of witnesses.
You might think that Elizabeth's interest in her husband's whereabouts,1889, is connected to her marriage the next year.
On the second marriage certificate, 1890, does Elizabeth describe herself as widow?
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At online tree on Ancestry, a second marriage for Elizabeth Amelia, 11 Oct 1890 to Henry Edwin HOPKINS.
We need some sort of documentation with information about James A**thur WILLIAMS.
Who is informant for birth registration of daughter Elizabeth Annie, 1886?
The marriage record, 1885, would give an occupation, his age, his father's name, and names of witnesses.
You might think that Elizabeth's interest in her husband's whereabouts,1889, is connected to her marriage the next year.
Agree. Something isn't adding up with the story or there is a lot of missing information that needs clarification. Even the warrant for arrest is kind of weird as it states that James abandoned her in sept 1885 yet the gazette and assumingly the warrant is dated 1889. This would mean he abandoned her prior to the birth of his daughter.
If he is the person in the newspaper article with a male child being born in 1891 then there must have been a divorce or similar between that time. Unless the James Auarthur and James Anarther are two different people, but unlikely considering the uniqueness of the names.
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Since his marriage record has been transcribed with his name James Auarthur Williams, was this a transcription error to his middle name or is his actual middle name Auarthur or similar?
If it is correct, then there is an entry in Trove in 1891 showing the birth of a son to a James Anarther Williams in Maitland.
"WILLIAMS.—On the 1st May, at Maitland, the wife of James Anarther (more plausible than Auarthur) Williams, of a son."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/24797327?searchTerm=%22james%20williams%22%20Maitland
Is this the same person and if so, was he found and forced to go back to his wife or is it a different wife?
And the registration.
HOPKINS Charles Henry Carter
2 May 1891
Father Henry Edwin HOPKINS Mother Emelia Elizabeth (fmly) WILLIAMS (nee) PALIN
At Maitland Dal 477/95
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Cando........nice catch on the Anarthur and a new child (and new wife). Maitland is the right area too.
I may go fossicking around the Maitland area for an Anarthur clue.......perhaps that is a family name.
I think the Police Gazette entry may have been her trying to have him declared dead before she remarried, as she does state she was a widow.
This is the info I have for James' wife and her second marriage to Henry Hopkins.
HOPKINS Henry Edwin aged 27 single father Edwin Carter Hopkins
married 11/10/1890
WILLIAMS Amelia Elizabeth aged 25 widow father William Palin
Wesleyan Parsonage Gawler
District Bar Symbol: A
Book/Page: 165/136
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Siouxsie - The date of the birth announcement and the registered date of birth are consecutive days so why on earth would the birth announcement be in the name of WILLIAMS and registration as HOPKINS. Unless she married Mr HOPKINS quietly and note the marriage was at Gawler, not Maitland,and was she still known to the community as Mrs WILLIAMS. As you know, registrations were done verbally usually at the local court house. Incidentally the birth registration of James Arthur's daughter shows his name as James Arthur WILLIAMS.
Sometimes the often embellished copper plate handwriting was often mistranscribed.
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With regards to the newspaper family notice it should be listed as Hopkins and not Williams if she was married to Hopkins at the time. Additionally, if James Anarthur Williams was dead, it would usually say 'the wife of the late James Anarthur Williams', yet it doesn't.
There is no reason for that newspaper entry reading as it does. As it reads, James Williams was still alive with possibly another wife and this entry is for his child which, would call into question Elizabeth's marriage record to Hopkins stating she was a widow (unless as mentioned before James Anarthur Williams is a different person). It would also explain why James Williams death can't be found around that time.
Getting married on the assumption of someone being dead because they weren't found due to an issued warrant wouldn't be a reason to be able to be married. I would also assume that such news like a person being found dead after a warrant was issued would make the paper.
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There is no reason for that newspaper entry reading as it does. As it reads, James Williams was still alive with possibly another wife
There is NO male birth registration with father James A* WILLIAMS at Maitland or in the District of Daly.
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This is getting more tangled than a pile of Christmas tree lights.
So........Amelia and James Authur get married in 1885.
Annie is born in 1886.
A Police Gazette notice is issued in 1889 stating he deserted in 1885.
In 1890 Amelia married Henry Hopkins as a widow.
In 1891 a birth notice was in the paper for a birth to the wife of James Anarthur
The following day, a birth is registered for
HOPKINS Charles Henry Carter
2 May 1891
Father Henry Edwin HOPKINS Mother Emelia Elizabeth (fmly) WILLIAMS (nee) PALIN
Now.....it states that she was formerly Williams.
SO.....where does this leave us?
Was James still alive, and this birth is to his 2nd wife?
Was James still alive and annoyed at Amelia for getting remarried while he was still alive and he put up the birth notice?
Was one of the family members malicious enough to put up the notice?
And my big questions still stand.
When and where was James born?
Yes, I know his father's name was James Edward, but that hasn't been much help so far.
And when did he die? Did he remarry? Have other children?
Was he a recent immigrant?
So many questions.
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Do you have James and Elizabeths actual marriage record to confirm what his actual middle name was (not a transcription)? It (Auarther) could be a transcription error or could be his actual name. For example, there are people around with the last name Anarther but not Auarther.
If you dont have the actual marriage record, then that would be your first place to start, confirming whether he was this Anarther/Auarther or was he Arthur with an odd loop of copperplate writing that was transcribed wrong.
Middle names back then were also here or there especially immigrants. For example, I have a person in my tree that immigrated to Australia with no middle names, married without any mention of them but when his death was registered in 1900, he ended up with two middle names.
As for the newspaper article you are wrong in your thinking. The birth notice says a son was born to James Anarther Williams on 1 May but the actual date of the paper it was entered in on was 16 Jul 1891. A full 2 months after his birth. Highly doubtful to be an error or malicious especially given that in the same column at the start it clearly states:"Announcements under this heading must be authenticated by the name and address of the sender..."
As I mentioned, this also could be a different person with a similar middle name, so it is hard to know exactly especially given the child's name isn't given. So, need to confirm that middle name before anything else.
Have you checked interstate for James' birth? He could, as you say, also be a new immigrant which can prove very difficult to trace especially in Australia back then when fact checking wasn't possible.
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Alas I do not have James and Elizabeths actual marriage record to confirm what his actual middle name was.
Yes, sorry I was wrong, the newspaper didn't come out until 16 July 1891. The date of birth for the son in the paper is one day prior to the registration birth of his ex wife's new baby.
I think James was perhaps a sailor........he had two anchor tattoos.
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Siouxsie I have searched my SA Births resource and there is no WILLIAMS birth in 1891 at Maitland and there is only one WILLIAMS birth in the whole district of Daly and that was at Kadina.
I assume you have this birth
PALIN James
3 Dec 1882
Father not recorded Mother Emilia PALIN
At Maitland Dal 294/170
and this
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article95259721
Siouxsie I have done a lot of research in this area as my late husband's family were from the district. Amelia's second husband is mentioned at Kilkerran. My late husband's ancestors farmed at Kilkerran. Just a rural location with a school. Pretty isolated in the 1880's and 1890's. It wasn't unusual for bdm registration quarterly returns not to reach the Registry at Adelaide so it's possible that a local district register one survives. I can recall a couple of incidents where the mail coach caught fire and the driver was an ancestor!!! When I next go to Adelaide I'll pop into SA Genealogy and see if I can have a look at the fiche of the Daly registrations for you or alternatively you could contact the Kadina Library - kadina.libraryATplain.sa.gov.au Replacing the AT with @. They are not permitted to photocopy the local registers however you could ask for an opinion on James' second given name and any other details.
I'll have a browse through some local history books to see if I can see anything about the PALIN, WILLIAMS or HOPKINS families. I agree that it's possible James A was a sailor.
I would also mention here that it wasn't unusual for country personal announcements to be published in the Adelaide newspapers some weeks after the event.
A number of public family trees (not on subscription only websites) have Elizabeth Amelia's husband as William Arthur - as he was noted on his daughter's birth registration.
Cheers
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Many thanks Cando.
I didn't have James Palin's birth........it is very strange as Amelia had a whole pile of kids with Hopkins and James would have been between 2nd and 3rd kid!
This family.......on both sides are a really PAIN!
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Many thanks Cando.
I didn't have James Palin's birth........it is very strange as Amelia had a whole pile of kids with Hopkins and James would have been between 2nd and 3rd kid!
This family.......on both sides are a really PAIN!
He was born 1882 so well before Elizabeth Amelia married in 1885.
These are the chn I found on my resource.
PALIN James
3 Dec 1882
Father not recorded Mother Emilia PALIN
At Maitland Dal 294/170
WILLIAMS Elizabeth Annie
5 Jan 1886
Father James Arthur WILLIAMS Mother Elizabeth Amelia PALIN
At Maitland Dal 366/361
HOPKINS Charles Henry Carter
2 May 1891
Father Henry Edwin HOPKINS Mother Emelia Elizabeth (fmly) WILLIAMS (nee) PALIN
At Maitland Dal 477/85
HOPKINS Sarah Ethel May
8 Apr 1894
Father Henry Edward HOPKINS Mother Amelia Ethel PAILIN
At Lower Light PtG 540/356
HOPKINS Edwin James Lloyd
13 Jul 1896
Father Edwin Henry HOPKINS Mother Annie Elizabeth PALIN
At Gawler Bar 586/437
HOPKINS William Arthur Tennyson
22 May 1899
Father Henry HOPKINS Mother Amelia PALIN
At Solomontown Port Pirie Cla 640/100
HOPKINS Leonard Harold
10 Aug 1902
Father Henry HOPKINS Mother Amelia PALIN
at Port Pirie Cla 700/86
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And he died aged 19 days.
PALIN James
22 Dec 1882 19 days
Relative Amelia PALIN (Mother)
Lived Maitland Died Maitland Dal 124/331
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My brain isn't functioning well today LOL
I misread the previous entry for James' birth and mistakenly placed his birth between the Hopkins offspring.
Time for me to hop off this computer for the day.