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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: ConfusedMason on Tuesday 12 March 19 08:06 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I have a specific person request that doesn't fit into any of my old threads, and I don't want to dig them up so I'm requesting information here.
I am looking for information on "Douglas Arthur Wright", or maybe "Arthur Douglas Wright".
This is everything I know:
My earliest mention of this person is the 1911 English census;
"Arthur Douglas Wright: Son: 2 years old, London Hackney Wick, British Subject by Parentage"
Father: William Wright: 1st of Jan 1865
Mother: Emma Wright (nee Farr): 26 Feb 1871
Arthur being 2 years old puts his birth year at around 1908, remember this.
My next mention of Arthur comes from a Workhouse Record, but the name is recorded as "Douglas Arthur Wright", not "Arthur Douglas", with the admission form stating his birth date is 1st of May, 1908. This matches up with Census birth year, and it's confirmed as the same person because the admission form has his mother as Emma Wright. The years he is in the Workhouse is 1914 and 1915, all with the same birth year.
I then "lose" all track of this person, but in 1939 there is a marriage registered in London of someone named "Douglas Arthur Reginald Wright", marrying "Lenora Joan Ellis". Douglas has his D.O.B down as 1st of May 1904, not the 1908 that I have on previous records. The marriage certificate has his father as Douglas Frederick Wright, a Soldier . This Douglas Wright fought in WWII and had a child "Patricia J Wright (1938 - 1991), before moving to Canada in the 1950s. I can't find any record of their travel to Canada, but how do I know about it?
Here's the thing; I took an Ancestry DNA test and I share 148cm of DNA with Patricias son. Her son is adamant that his grandfather was born in 1904 and not 1908 because all of the war records for his grandfather state the earlier year. I have nothing to link my "Arthur Douglas Wright" to this "Douglas Arthur Reginald Wright" apart from the DNA link with this person.
Can you help me find the birth certificate? I cannot find it at all, I have looked very hard and can not seem to find any records of it on GRO. My DNA relation also cannot find any record of his Wright's Birth Certificate either. If his grandfather moved to Canada, there must be a Birth Certificate somewhere.
Please help me link these two people, I can provide what info I can to help.
edit: thanks Mckha489 for all you've helped me with already.
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“I then "lose" all track of this person, but in 1939 there is a marriage registered in London of someone named "Douglas Arthur Reginald Wright", marrying "Lenora Joan Ellis". Douglas has his D.O.B down as 1st of May 1904, not the 1908 that I have on previous records. The marriage certificate has his father as Douglas Frederick Wright, a Soldier . This Douglas Wright fought in WWII and had a child "Patricia J Wright (1938 - 1991), before moving to Canada in the 1950s. I can't find any record of their travel to Canada, but how do I know about it?”
The marriage between Douglas A R Wright and Lenora Joan Ellis took place in Worthing, Sussex, 1936.
What was Douglas’s occupation on the marriage record?
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Hi again CM, just posting the links to those other threads, as already Heywood is asking a question previously covered
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=806155.msg6667210
If only I could find the other more pertinent one
Here it is
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=806150.msg6664696#msg6664696
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Hi again CM, just posting the links to those other threads, as already Heywood is asking a question previously covered
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=806155.msg6667210
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=806155.0
I was just pointing out that your date and place of marriage were wrong.
I then just wanted to clarify that I had the right person in 1939.
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Got this as a reply to the Arthur Douglas Wright lead on ancestry that I am DNA related to:
"I have found a copy of the Marriage cert. between Doug & Lenora, the name of Dougs father is listed as Douglas Fredrick Wright...his profession is listed as Soldier, the date is 1930"
"Also marriage certificate states Doug's name as
Douglas Arthur Reginald Wright, age 32"
"we just found his War Service book... it lists his DOB, May 1 1904"
I mentioned that the ages and dates lined up, mentioning I found the 1936 record on GRO, then they replied
"yes, you're right ! the dates have been altered on the cert. it looks like they were erased and writen in again"0
Modified to add, this was the information re the marriage already posted in a previous thread, (to save you looking through all the pages. :)
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Just for information as I don’t quite understand the previous post.
Douglas Arthur Wright 15 yrs 6 months joined Royal Tank Corps 15th November 1923 in London.
Place of birth given as Homerton and his trade on enlistment was a Musician.
This might be the 1908 one.
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I’ve added an (I hope) explanatory note to my post #4
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Out of interest, do you know who William Wright's father is. You show he was born 1 January 1865. I'm desperately trying to find the parents of my g.grandfather George William Wright who seem equally mysterious with no birth certificate available. I was interested in the fact that you show that Douglas Arthur Wright was a British subject by parentage, even though he was born in London. Does that mean, perhaps, that his parents were not originally British?
I wonder if there is a link between Douglas Arthur Wright's father and my grandfather. I have done an Ancestry DNA but there are so many matches, I don't know if I have a match with you or not. If you want to PM me your Ancestry name, then I can check.
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I’ve added an (I hope) explanatory note to my post #4
I don’t think youprovided the right link - I couldn’t see anything relevant on the ones you posted.
I think this is the one you meant
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=806150.msg6652669#msg6652669
Added looks like you have now :)
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Out of interest, do you know who William Wright's father is. You show he was born 1 January 1865. I'm desperately trying to find the parents of my g.grandfather George William Wright who seem equally mysterious with no birth certificate available. I was interested in the fact that you show that Douglas Arthur Wright was a British subject by parentage, even though he was born in London. Does that mean, perhaps, that his parents were not originally British?
I wonder if there is a link between Douglas Arthur Wright's father and my grandfather. I have done an Ancestry DNA but there are so many matches, I don't know if I have a match with you or not. If you want to PM me your Ancestry name, then I can check.
They’ve no doubt entered “British subject by parentage” for the whole household in error, not having understood that the column was only relevant to those born overseas.
Quite a common error in 1911, which was the first census to ask for this information.
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Out of interest, do you know who William Wright's father is. You show he was born 1 January 1865. I'm desperately trying to find the parents of my g.grandfather George William Wright who seem equally mysterious with no birth certificate available. I was interested in the fact that you show that Douglas Arthur Wright was a British subject by parentage, even though he was born in London. Does that mean, perhaps, that his parents were not originally British?
I wonder if there is a link between Douglas Arthur Wright's father and my grandfather. I have done an Ancestry DNA but there are so many matches, I don't know if I have a match with you or not. If you want to PM me your Ancestry name, then I can check.
Hello, I will PM you my Ancestry link.
The parents of William Wright was James Wright and Jane Higgins.
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Thank you CM. Got the links and sent you a PM reply.
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..... in 1939 there is a marriage registered in London of someone named "Douglas Arthur Reginald Wright", marrying "Lenora Joan Ellis". Douglas has his D.O.B down as 1st of May 1904, not the 1908 that I have on previous records.
It is already established that the date and place were incorrect, and he also would not have given a date of birth on the marriage certificate, so where do you see "his D.O.B down as 1st of May 1904"?
Debra :)
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..... in 1939 there is a marriage registered in London of someone named "Douglas Arthur Reginald Wright", marrying "Lenora Joan Ellis". Douglas has his D.O.B down as 1st of May 1904, not the 1908 that I have on previous records.
It is already established that the date and place were incorrect, and he also would not have given a date of birth on the marriage certificate, so where do you see "his D.O.B down as 1st of May 1904"?
Debra :)
His 1904 DOB comes from information from the DNA match and the info on the Marriage Cert. The marriage cert is 1936 and states Douglas Arthur Reginald Wrights age is 32, says he is a "Glazier" and their residence was 23 Reigate Road, Worthing.
The 1904 DOB also comes from his War Records; image here:
https://i.imgur.com/6m5zUan.png
https://i.imgur.com/vl3Uyd2.jpg
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Douglas Wright (45) Lenora (44) and their 12 yr old daughter emigrated to Canada on the Scythia, which departed Southampton bound for Quebec on 31 May 1951.
Last address in the UK: 23 Reigate Rd, West Worthing.
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Perhaps he simply inflated his age when he met and married Lenora (and sustained the lie thereafter), so that it appeared he was older than her?
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Douglas Wright (45) Lenora (44) and their 12 yr old daughter emigrated to Canada on the Scythia, which departed Southampton bound for Quebec on 31 May 1951.
Last address in the UK: 23 Reigate Rd, West Worthing.
Thankyou, I will pass that info onto his grandson as he was very interested in when they went to Canada. Is there a document showing it?
Also, do you think the reason I can't find the birth certificate is because he might have had a different surname at birth for some reason, or is it possible there never was a birth cert?
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Yes I think one possibility is that Arthur was not born to William and Emma, but was perhaps a grandchild, illegitimate or otherwise. Have you accounted for all their children?
Alternatively they might just have been one of those families which was not consistently compliant with registration requirements.
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You can view the 1951 outbound passenger list on Findmypast.
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Yes I think one possibility is that Arthur was not born to William and Emma, but was perhaps a grandchild, illegitimate or otherwise. Have you accounted for all their children?
Alternatively they might just have been one of those families which was not consistently compliant with registration requirements.
My great grandfather William was the eldest of William and Emma, born in 1890. William and Emma had 3 daughters, but even though I cant account for all of them, they were born around 1900 so the dates wouldnt line up for Arthur to be a grandchild.
I was going to find the Canadian death certificate for him, but I doubt that would have the true information if he lied about his age for so long.
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How many of their 10 children did they register? Is Arthur the only one missing, or were they casual about it generally?
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How many of their 10 children did they register? Is Arthur the only one missing, or were they casual about it generally?
I have only found names of 8 of the kids, and I can find all of those birth certs except Arthur.
I would totally be giving up on this search and not linking the two people if it wasnt for the fact I am a closeish DNA match with his grandson.
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I can see these children:
William, Mar qtr 1891
Rosie, Dec qtr 1893
George, Mar qtr 1896
Annie, Sep qtr 1897
Emma Lydia, Sep qtr 1899
Edward Thomas, Mar qtr 1902
Frederick, baptised 23 March 1904
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I can see these children:
William, Mar qtr 1891
Rosie, Dec qtr 1893
George, Mar qtr 1896
Annie, Sep qtr 1897
Emma Lydia, Sep qtr 1899
Edward Thomas, Mar qtr 1902
Frederick, baptised 23 March 1904
Yep I got those ones;
https://i.imgur.com/Ft400xI.png
The above is where I stand with it. I have barely been able to find any info about the deaths of their parents either, except that the mother was alive in at least 1945. From all my research, it seems I come from a very confusing family.
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Have you found a birth reg for Frederick then (1904)? You say you have them for all known children except Arthur.
For me the most likely explanation is that Arthur Douglas/Douglas Arthur was a child of this family, born on 1st May 1908 but not registered for whatever reason (probably of the “didn’t get round to it” variety). Later he met and married Lenora, altering his age so as to appear older than her.
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Have you found a birth reg for Frederick then (1904)? You say you have them for all known children except Arthur.
For me the most likely explanation is that Arthur Douglas/Douglas Arthur was a child of this family, born on 1 May 1908 but not registered for whatever reason (probably of the “didn’t get round to it” variety). Later he met and married Lenora, altering his age so as to appear older than her.
Your theory is what I think is also most likely, I just thought it strange he could move to Canada without a Birt Cert. Maybe times were different then.
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post removed - sorry - wrong information.
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Sorry re above I quoted some wrong information.
This is now the right stuff :)
Re Douglas Arthur, the soldier from my earlier post.
Became Army Reserve 1932 - had signed on for 9 yrs. discharged 14.11.35
Brother Edward - 2nd Battalion Royal Engineers
Then in the box re Campaign medals etc there are some codes and 1942 is mentioned.
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Sorry re above I quoted some wrong information.
This is now the right stuff :)
Re Douglas Arthur, the soldier from my earlier post.
Became Army Reserve 1932 - had signed on for 9 yrs. discharged 14.11.35
Brother Edward - 2nd Battalion Royal Engineers
Then in the box re Campaign medals etc there are some codes and 1942 is mentioned.
Thanks Heywood, I'm adding that all to the records I have. I do believe the two people to be the same person now, just without a birth certificate and changed his birthday to seem older than his wife. The DNA links the two people, so I am sure it is right.
My next goal for my tree will be to find the death dates of his parents,
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Do you have them in 1939 register?
There is this marriage
Arthur H Brazier and Emma Wright 1929, Edmonton.
There are people of this name on the 1939 register but don’t know if it is them.
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There are these births
Daisy F Brazier 1917 mmn Farr.
Daisy F Brazier 1922 mmn Farr.
These births, of course, are several years before that marriage.
1939 shows a 1917 birth so it seems a bit odd.
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How did we make the jump to the Braziers? I am a bit lost
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Marriage as given already 1929
Electoral registers (a few)
1935 - 1939
24 Shore Road Hackney
Arthur Henry Brazier
Emma Brazier
Daisy Florence Brazier
Births of Daisy F with mmn Farr - already given but am puzzled by two births but no death of first child.
You then need to check 1939 register which has dates of birth to compare Emma’s birthdate.
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Well, if Emma WRIGHT who married Arthur BRAZIER IS Emma FARR widow (we presume?) of William WRIGHT, then she would have been 51 at the birth of the 1922 Daisy Florence, which while not unheard of is pretty good going.
The ages DO fit.
Added, although it would appear it is the 1917 one that survived. Perhaps the 1922 registration is a Re-registration for some reason.
Added this note is on freebmd
.Births Jun 1922
Brazier Daisy F. Farr Hackney 1b 678 MissMarple
The above transcription represents what is in the GRO index but it is referred to by the following entry
Births 1917 Jun: Brazier,Daisy,Farr,Hackney,1b,see j22
which implies that this is a late entry, that is an entry that has been registered in a quarter later than the event. See here for more information on late entries.
Added. Maybe they had to register her when she started school.
So my suspicions say William (if your William) was not deceased before 1917. But before 1929
There is this death
Deaths Sep 1924 (>99%)
Wright William 64 Hackney 1b 366
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Deaths Mar 1947 (>99%)
Brazier Emma 75 Hackney 5c 1051
Daisy Florence Brazier b 20 Mar 1917 d 2006 Milton Keynes
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This is all perfect, I am ordering all of these certificates.
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Deaths Sep 1924 (>99%)
Wright William 64 Hackney 1b 366
The 64 Y/O does not match the DOB I have for William for 1924, but I ordered it regardless
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Don’t you have dob 1860? I do :) :)
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Don’t you have dob 1860? I do :) :)
I'm not sure you do, we have the marriage cert between William Wright and Emma Farr saying William is 23 in 1890, and has a father named James Wright. All the census data we have on our trees too doesn't point to an 1860 birth, unless I am mistake / missing something
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Oh no, you are correct. We actually have a whole range from 1861 to 1868. I can’t remenber why I picked on 1860 before.
Anyway, on revisiting there is this birth
WRIGHT, WILLIAM HIGGINS
GRO Reference: 1865 M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 336
But interestingly there are no Hackney deaths that I can see right now (hedging my bets) between 1917 and 1929 that fit that birth. But he did say he was 50 in 1911 so hopefully the “wrong” death might be the right one . Fingers crossed.
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Thanks for the additional information re Daisy. I should have checked.
The indexes have a handwritten addition for Daisy F Wright mmn Farr - see June 1922 so that confirms the scenario.
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Yep, I ordered the Death Certs of William and Emma anyway to see how we go with them.
I was unable to order the Daisy one as it appears to be too recent for birth certificates
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Well, it all seems possible now for the account of your ancestor meeting his mother during the war so a good ending. :)
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Well, it all seems possible now for the account of your ancestor meeting his mother during the war so a good ending. :)
There is still that Battle of Jutland mystery. ???
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Well, it all seems possible now for the account of your ancestor meeting his mother during the war so a good ending. :)
There is still that Battle of Jutland mystery. ???
I just put that down to James Mason lying about being there. He lied about his age and his name, who knows what else he lied about? I've given up on ever knowing how he came to Australia, he probably picked a completely random name to travel here on.
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I received the certs today:
Emma Brazier: https://i.imgur.com/kFAllCG.png - Having difficulty reading this one with the Rank / Profession, not sure if this one matches up.
William Wright: https://i.imgur.com/tKkMC4D.png - Based on the signature of the Widow, I don't believe this one to be correct.
Oh well, was worth a shot.
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Well I think the Emma one is the same one we were looking at. Says wife of Arthur Henry Brazier a manufacturer of something
William ... occupation potman? Doesn’t seem right. But who is to say he wasn’t living with mrs C/E .
Maybe you have to wait for the 1921 census.
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Occupation is Marine Instrument Manufacturers traveller
In 1923 the occupants of 78 Gibsons Gardens, Hackney (The address on the 2nd certificate) were
Charlotte Wright
William Wright
William John Wright
Just C & WJ in 1926
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1945 Electoral register 35 East Bank, Hackney
Arthur Brazier
Daisy Brazier
Emma Brazier