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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: jonwicken on Sunday 10 March 19 20:57 GMT (UK)
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According to the census, my ancestor Charles Smith was born in Lambeth in c1821-1823.
His father is named on his 1846 marriage as William Smith, a coach trimmer, and his mother Jane's death certificate from 1854 confirms the name and occupation of her husband.
I am however struggling to work out any more about William Smith and would really appreciate some help.
I have found Charles Smith on the 1841 as an apprentice Coach Trimmer aged 15 (as ages then were rounded down) with a John Smith aged 20 (so actually up to 24) who was a coach trimmer, Jane Smith aged 55 (presumably his mother) and a 3 year old John Smith. They were at 19 Great Union Street, St George the Martyr Southwark.
Can anyone else please help me crack these Smiths? They have been a mystery for some years and I would like to resolve them, even though the common Smith name makes things difficult!
Thank you,
Jon
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You might have to splash out on a death cert or two.
You can use the GRO indexes to find deaths for William smith in the right area 1837 to 1841. Ages are included, so i reckon youre down to 3 or four candidates
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and a 3 year old John Smith.
Do you know who this 3 year old belonged to?
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No I have no idea who John's parents were. There is a September 1837 birth for John Smith in St George Southwark with a mother's maiden name of Stiles but can't track the parents' marriage!
There are several William Smiths who died between 1837 and 1841 in the registration districts of Lambeth, St George Southwark and St Saviours of the right age and as he could have died before 1837 it would be an expensive process to this unfortunately.
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What about the other John Smith age 20 - can you trace him forward with a possible marriage with the same father? Might not help but would add a bit more info to the pile.
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Yes I tried than too and I can't see anything :(
I feel 3 year old John could be the key but haven't cracked it so far.
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Then I would suggest buying the 3-y-olds birth certificate. @£7
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I noted that John Smith was still with mother Jane on 1851 census - now shown bc.1815 St. George's, Surrey (Southwark).
Looked for his baptism and found that he and a brother were both baptised 30/6/1816 St. George the Martyr, Southwark - William then shown as Coach Maker:
John Walker born 27/9/1814
Thomas Samuel born 20/11/1815
Charles Smith was not baptised until 1/11/1837 Christchurch, Southwark - shown as born 19/9/1822 - William a Coach Trimmer and family then living at Webber Street.
Annette
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Then I would suggest buying the 3-y-olds birth certificate. @£7
Yes this looks like a good plan! :)
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Charles Smith was not baptised until 1/11/1837 Christchurch, Southwark - shown as born 19/9/1822 - William a Coach Trimmer and family then living at Webber Street.
Wow this is amazing! I have been looking for this for over a decade! Thank you!
I noted that John Smith was still with mother Jane on 1851 census - now shown bc.1815 St. George's, Surrey (Southwark).
I can't find them in the 1851 census so never seen that at all. Could you please help me find that entry please? I have an ancestry subscription so could you please send me the link at all?!
Looked for his baptism and found that he and a brother were both baptised 30/6/1816 St. George the Martyr, Southwark - William then shown as Coach Maker:
John Walker born 27/9/1814
Thomas Samuel born 20/11/1815
I had seen these but there is another William and Jane having children at the same time and he was also a coach maker. The 1851 census would however seem to confirm John Walker Smith as the sibling of Charles!
Thank you so very much. Rootschat and fresh eyes are amazing!
Jon
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Another child of William and Jane:
Henry Hugh b.8/11/1820, bp.26/11/1820 St. Saviour, Southwark, son of William Smith, coach trimmer and Jane.
Afraid I can't give you Ancestry reference for John Smith in 1851 - the ref. HO107 Piece 1565, Folio 265 Page 54 brought up nothing on Ancestry so I tried looking for 2 other individuals on the same page who had more distinctive names and they are not there either, so looks like Ancestry have missed this page. (Strange, because I had the same situation earlier today but in reverse!)
Since you can search by occupation on FindMyPast I checked 1861 census and found a William Smith bc.1811 Southwark who was also a coach trimmer - wonder if he could be the William Huntly Smith bp.22/11/1812 St. George Southwark, son of William and Jane - cannot find online the original page
of this parish register to see what occupation given for William senior.
Annette
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Hi Annette,
Thank you so much for all your help. I have now been able to match addresses and connections and track down much more about this Smith family. They have eluded me for so long that I am so pleased!
I have tracked down what happened to Charles Smith's siblings but still some mysteries to resolve, particularly finding the marriage of William Smith and Jane which now looks like must have happened in or before 1809.
I will update with a bit more information I have found in the next few days.
Thanks again,
Jon
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So thanks to this thread I now know my ancestors William Smith, a coach trimmer of Southwark, and his wife Jane had the following children:
1.William Huntley Smith (1810–aft 1861)
2. John Walker Smith (1814–aft 1851)
3. Thomas Samuel Smith (1815–1851)
4. Henry Hugh Smith (1820–1821)
5. Charles Smith (1822–1867)
There was another couple called William and Jane Smith who had three children baptised at St Mary Lambeth (Jane 1813, Mary Ann 1815 and Clarissa 1820). William was listed as a coach maker, but the birth dates clash with the above children so they are evidently a separate couple.
I now have the following questions I am trying to answer, and would of course greatly appreciate any further assistance from anyone. Mainly though I am posting this for any other researchers who might come across it in future:
1. When did William Smith and Jane get married? It must have been prior to 1810 but given Jane's year of birth of c1780/1 it could have been from 1802 to 1809. Did she have the maiden name Huntley or Walker?
2. The 1851 census states Jane was born in c1780/1 in St John's, Surrey. Would this be St John Horsleydown?
3. Did William and Jane have other children prior to 1810 and around 1812 and 1817?
4. When did William Smith die? It took place between 1822 and 1841 but I can't find a burial. The 1821 burial of son Henry and 1837 baptism of son Charles show they were then at Webber Street, Southwark and by the 1841 census, Jane was without William with her son at 19 Great Union Street, Southwark.
5. Was their son William Huntley Smith born 1810 and baptised 1812 the same as the William Smith who in 1840 had started to have children with Susannah Langridge? She was aged 20 in the 1841 census at High Street, Sutton, with Landridge relatives. I can't find their marriage which might name his father.
1851 and 1861 census showing William Smith:
www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/SRYHO107_1564_1565-0340
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/SRYRG9_332_335-0853
6. Who was the John Smith aged 3 with Jane in the 1841 census? Presumably it was her grandson, but no idea who the father was. There is a September 1837 birth for John Smith in St George Southwark with a mother's maiden name of Stiles but can't track the parents' marriage!
1841 census showing Jane Smith, sons John and Charles and assumed grandson John:
www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/SRYHO107_1085_1086-0187
7. In 1822 a Charles and Sophia Smith had a son named Henry Hugh Paris Smith baptised at Lambeth. The father was a coachmaker and deceased. Given the name Henry Hugh are the same as William's son born in 1820 and William had a son named Charles, I suspect this Charles Smith was his brother but I cannot find his marriage to Sophia or his burial in 1821/2.
Henry Hugh Paris Smith baptism:
www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1558/31280_195072-00176/
Thanks again for everyone's comments and help.
I am today visiting West Norwood Cemetery where I know Jane Smith was buried in 1854 and her son Charles Smith was buried in 1867. I suspect the grave stone has been removed, but you never know!
Kind regards,
Jon
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There's marriage banns for William Smith and Susannah Langridge between March and April 1837 at St. Mary's Church, Beddington, which is quite near to Sutton. Unfortunately no parent names on the Banns.
I don't think certificates started until a couple of months later.
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There's marriage banns for William Smith and Susannah Langridge between March and April 1837 at St. Mary's Church, Beddington, which is quite near to Sutton. Unfortunately no parent names on the Banns.
I don't think certificates started until a couple of months later.
Hi Mark,
I hadn't found the marriage so this is great. Thanks so much for looking and posting as even if it doesn't have his father's name, it is great to have tracked the marriage down.
Thank you very much,
Jon