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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: gemmanoon on Thursday 07 March 19 21:25 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I've attached a photo of my ancestor, Sara Smith nee Trow, and who are belioeved to be her two youngest sons, Matthew and George (but we don't know which is which).
This photo came to me by way of several older relatives, and it was only when I was looking at it this week that I noticed Sarah's eyes and hands.
I think she is dead.
Sarah died in 1888, so I'd love some expert opinions on whether the clothing, style, etc is right for about that time period in Montgomeryshire, Wales. Her sons would have been either side of 40 years old in that year.
Thanks for your input!
Gemma
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In my opinion, I think you are right, I think this is most likely to be a Post Mortem photo.
Carol
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It looks very like it to me, too.
In addition to her fixed expression, her fingers look arranged and stiff. Also, the son on the left looks as if he might be supporting her head or holding a support.
Gadget
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It certainly looks that way, however if you had not mentioned ages I would have thought the men were somewhat younger than 40.
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Something looks wrong.com about the whole photo! Even the son on our right looks a bit off, added or something...
I don’t understand why you would do it. Interesting though.
I remember a post like this years ago.
Bitzar.
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Something looks wrong.com about the whole photo! Even the son on our right looks a bit off, added or something...
You're right. Having had a more detailed look, I'm sure the man on the right doesn't seem to have his legs where they should be if he was standing there. The base of the 'column' can be seen and I'm sure it might have been partially hidden by his legs. Also, as Ruskie says, the sons look much younger than 40- maybe mid 20s- 30s.
Gadget
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The photo seems to have suffered a bit of wear and tear which may make seeing the detail more difficult. It's not showing up very well on my monitor.
I don't know if it would help at all, but Gemma, are you able to obtain a better scan of the photo?
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I can see the shoe of the man on the right...I agree that they look to be younger than 40s.
Carol
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It just doesn't look right. ??out of proportion
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I'm now having second thoughts about this being a PM photo. Her eyes look odd, but so do the boy's eyes (I think it may be due to the photo or the scan which has lost some detail?).
The way her fingers are holding the book seem very posed and unnatural, and this alone is making me think PM. :-\
I think those boys could be anything from 18 to 25 ish. :)
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I think you are right and she is dead. Looking back now, I think this is macabre - even sick. But I have heard of such things happening on several occasions. One last photo opportunity maybe?
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I'd probably date the photo to be mid 1860s; judging by the middle woman's clothing; a front darted bodice with bishop sleeves, peregrine shawl and lace 'house cap'. Both boys look to be in their 20s.
Could be postmortem - though I'm no expert (as we've already established ;)) . The boy on the left seems to be supporting her head, and from what I can make out the pupils of her eyes seem to be sort of rolled/glazed over (?) - which although this is not the best quality scan, you can still make out the pupils in the eyes of the boys (maybe she had light blue/grey eyes?).
The fingers do look very stiff and unnaturally posed - though I don't how they would have supported the book (bible maybe).
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I'm sure the man on the right doesn't seem to have his legs where they should be if he was standing there.
They look like the crossed legs of a seated person to me. Not totally sure about the PM aspect of the pic yet.
If the pic is definitely dated to mid 1860s - sons would have been about early 20s - which they look; Sara died 1888 then it cannot be a PM photo. I agree that book could not have been supported by the hands of a deceased person - in that situation the book would most likely have been placed flat on their lap.
ADDED: The whole bottom half looks more painted [see the texture of the skirt] than a photo. Going out on a limb here - I wonder if it is an early mash-up of 2 pictures?
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I think she is sitting on a sofa and the boys are behind it. The one on the right has his hand on the BACK of the sofa. There is possibly a throw or blanket behind her which is confusing the image.
As you lot always want to dismember and kill off people :o I think the lady was very much alive!!
Giggsy
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It does seem very weird to me, but it was a reasonably common occurrence in the second half of the 1800s.
15:02 update. Holding a book with your thumbs on the inside of the book and just the next two fingers behind it is a very uncomfortable way to hold a book.
Martin
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ADDED: The whole bottom half looks more painted [see the texture of the skirt] than a photo. Going out on a limb here - I wonder if it is an early mash-up of 2 pictures?
That's what I was wondering, josey.
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Having seen this in Photoshop and played around...I think she is alive. She is spreading her fingers to support the book in that position.
Carol
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Strangely I can find no Sara[h] Smith deaths in Montgomeryshire 1888 [inc 1st quarter 1889] on freebmd...just wondered what OP has for her age on death. Looking for census now.
Possibly 1851 HO107; Piece: 2496; Folio: 451; Page: 10 Llawnmog
Edward Smith 50
Sarah Smith 44 [edit: so born ca 1806/7]
Jane Smith 12
Thomas Smith 8
David Smith 6
Mathew Smith 3
George Smith 1
John Evans 10
A possible death
Deaths Jun 1885 [edit: so born ca 1808]
Smith Sarah 77 Newtown 11b 141
Sarah in the picture [nice one, Carol] looks much nearer 50 - 60 than late 70s to me again putting date at 1860s along with apparent ages of sons.
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That photoshop fiddling has helped a lot Carol. She certainly looks more alive. Agree that age wise she looks around 50s/60s.
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Agree 1860's & the boys look in their 20's.
Not sure why anyone would think she's dead.
I know if you surf the net you will see posed pictures like this which might give the impression is was common practice, it wasn't.
Most pm's have the subject in bed as if asleep.
photographic equipment was quite basic & there are often oddities particularly people with light coloured eyes who can look like zombies also the primitive lenses caused fuzziness around the edges which can give some distortion add to that the ravages of time & you end up with a picture like this.
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Carol that photo manipulation certainly made her eyes look less creepy! And a date of the 1860s would make more sense if it is indeed the two youngest sons.
My apologies on the death date - it was April 1885 not 1888. Apparently, there is still a gravestone at St Gwynog's (I haven't seen it in person, and have only a transcription not a photograph, annoyingly) that says:
In affectionate memory of/Sarah Smith/of Bellan in this Parish/died April 9th, 1885,/aged 78 years./He is the Friend in Jordan's river,/Me from sinking He will keep/Seeing Him is past rejoincing/Though the waters are so deep.
This also tracks with the civil death index record, so I'm as certain as I can be that this is the correct Sarah.
Thanks everyone for your help and opinions. I still think the picture is rather creepy even if she's alive and well - I don't think I'd want to cross her in a dark alley, is all I'm saying.
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"I'd probably date the photo to be mid 1860s; judging by the middle woman's clothing; a front darted bodice with bishop sleeves, peregrine shawl and lace 'house cap'. Both boys look to be in their 20s."
Thanks for this, Russell. That would track with the fact the boys look only to be in their twenties, suggesting it's not a post-mortem photo but rather that Sarah's eyes might have faded / lost some detail when it was copied.
Much appreciate your expertise!
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It does seem very weird to me, but it was a reasonably common occurrence in the second half of the 1800s.
15:02 update. Holding a book with your thumbs on the inside of the book and just the next two fingers behind it is a very uncomfortable way to hold a book.
Martin
Not as common as we are led to believe.
I held the book as she seemed to hold it. I think she supported it underneath with other 2 fingers of each hand. It was comfortable enough. It was a prop, she wasn't reading it.
Re. Jim reply #19. There was a RC thread maybe last year or 2017 about post mortem photos with a link to an online collection of supposed pm pics. The subjects were alive when they posed.
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Yes, the position of her hands on the book does not seem so odd when borne in mind that she was holding it down in her lap and not in a position you would have it if you were actually reading it at the time. Also, is it known: was she even literate? If she could not or in practice did not read, then holding an open book might not have come naturally to her. Just my ten cents worth, anyway, on an interesting thread!
CELTICANNIE