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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: BenRalph on Monday 04 March 19 14:59 GMT (UK)
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I'm trying to find any new info on my partner's 2x great granddad. I've never researched anything in Ireland before but gave it a go on Ancestry and came up blank. Here's what I could find of him:
1906 married Margaret Ann McNulty in Holbeck, Leeds.
Between 1906 & 1922 they have 6 girls and 1 boy. 2 died as children, two died as bachelor/spinster and with no children and one might still be alive.
in 1911he's in Leeds with his wife and two children. He signs a x on the census return and it says he was born in Ireland.
in 1939 Patrick and Margaret, along with 3 of their children, are living on Belle Isle Road in Leeds. His dob is given as 23/1/1876.
Dec 1954 Patrick dies and is buried in Killingbeck Cemetery (Catholic) in Leeds.
This is all I know of him. I would like to find his place of birth and his parents if possible without having to order the marriage cert to see his father's name.
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Might be one of these... 1901 http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ngw/ but which one if you don't know father??
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Births for 1876
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ngx/
It is a useful site, you have to sign in but it is free https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
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Births for 1876
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ngx/
It is a useful site, you have to sign in but it is free https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
Again...but which one if you don't know father?? Also one has to consider the Birth might not have been Registered!
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I agree hallmark but thought I would help :)
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I can’t see him in Leeds in 1911
There is a Patrick Mangin in Sheffield in 1901 here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9RN-8TM
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Is this him?
Patrick Mannien ?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWVD-4DN
Yorkshire BMD has him as Patrick Mannion on marriage.
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How sure are you re the surname Mangan?
You need the marriage details.
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Thank you for the links.
I was hoping I'd be able to find a birth/baptism record with his dob on or maybe a 1901 census with a similar occupation on for who appears to be him before having to buy the marriage cert.
Regarding the surname. Yes, that's them with Mannien in 1911 anc Mannion marriage in 1906. All his children were registered and used the surname Mangan all their lives and every record has that. Whoever gave the info in 1911 census just put a 'x' where they should have signed so I assumed that when it wasn't written as Mangan then it was a conflict of accents.
Thanks again everyone.
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My MANNIONs have various spelling including MANYON etc.
Literacy caused several problems
One person who may be of interest is here - LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03064/2123579.pdf)
Patrick s/o Patrick MANNION, a Shepherd; and Catherine nee MANNION b Jan 18 1876
There is a baptism transcribed in the same area on Jan 23 1876
Many people at that time used their baptism details as well as their civil records for birth dates
I am checking out where the original of the baptism record is located as the transcription does not link correct and an initial search didn't find him. I'll update when I know more.
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Births for 1876
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ngx/
It is a useful site, you have to sign in but it is free https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
Have you checked any of these?
There is one born January 1976 in Ballina district.
Birthdates are often wrong within a few days.
Here is that family in 1901 with no Patrick
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Letterbrick/Derreen/1574721/
1911 confirms 6 children born and still living.
As said earlier, a marriage certificate might help because of father’s name and witnesses.
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I agree with what others have said about needing to see marriage certificate for father's name and hopefully witnesses who were relatives. Without it, everything else is speculation as you don't know where in Ireland he was from and are not even certain of his surname.
My Irish grandmother's date of birth on her birth registration is different from d.o.b. on her baptism entry. The difference is only a few days but I've seen others with larger discrepancies and some whose official d.o.b. was later than their baptism. I had trouble finding grandma's birth registration, although I knew where she was born, because her first name at registration wasn't the name she went by in later life. There are online trees which have incorrect names, birth information and parents for her. Her younger sister wasn't registered.
My uncle has wrong birth year on 1939 Register.
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I am still waiting for a reply on my query - I haven't forgotten!
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Thank you for more interest in this. I think I will have to get the marriage certificate on payday. Where is the best place to purchase them these days as I've not bought a marriage cert for quite a few years?
I was wondering if the date of 23 Jan was the baptism as I've seen it with a couple of Catholic relatives before.
I've not had chance to look on the laptop at the links provided yet but will as soon as time allows.
Thank you.
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I was wondering if the date of 23 Jan was the baptism as I've seen it with a couple of Catholic relatives before.
You won't know that until you can find out where he was baptised and you need to know where he was born before you can locate a likely church.
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A agree with maiden stone you first need the marriage certificate
As the marriage was in Leeds you will need to apply in England/UK and I don't know the best options for this
Also when you have the certificate if they married in a Catholic Church I would contact the church as they often recorded more information than was registered. They sometimes included the mother's name and reference to the baptism or place of origin but it is not guaranteed.
I still await a reply on the transcription
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Where is the best place to purchase them these days as I've not bought a marriage cert for quite a few years?
You need to register and purchase them from the GRO.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
Marriages Jan-Mar 1906
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MANNION Patrick Holbeck 9b 418
McNulty Margaret Ann Holbeck 9b 418
KG
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Also when you have the certificate if they married in a Catholic Church I would contact the church as they often recorded more information than was registered. They sometimes included the mother's name and reference to the baptism or place of origin but it is not guaranteed.
Look up the church on GENUKI website. This is organised by place. It should tell you if church registers have been deposited at archives. If so, you can post a request on the Yorkshire board asking if anyone will be visiting whichever archive it is and could do a look-up for you. Also check out family history societies in the area and find out if they have done transcriptions. Before you do any of that, search for the marriage on FreeReg. Most clergy & parish staff (if they exist) don't have time to answer enquiries from family historians.
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Hi all.
I will order the cert from the link provided. Thank you.
They married in the Registry Office which is why I can't access the cert as I usually would (on Ancestry other going to the library in town as I live in Leeds).
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Hi all.
I will order the cert from the link provided. Thank you.
They married in the Registry Office which is why I can't access the cert as I usually would (on Ancestry other going to the library in town as I live in Leeds).
Does it say in the index "Registry Office or Registrar attended"? The marriage may have been in a church which wasn't C. of E. and conducted by a clergyman who wasn't licensed to perform marriages. If that was the case, either a member of staff from the registry office had to go to the church to witness the wedding and take care of the administration part, or the couple had to visit the registry office and have a separate civil wedding. A religious wedding ceremony in a non-Anglican church wasn't a legal marriage unless a registrar was present.
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The marriage is listed on Yorkshire BMD as the Registry Office only. There's no duplicate for a non-CofE marriage.
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The marriage is listed on Yorkshire BMD as the Registry Office only. There's no duplicate for a non-CofE marriage.
It says "Holbeck District Registered Building" on Yorkshire BMD. A lot of others have "Registered Building" too. I'm used to Lancashire BMD which has "Registry Office or Registrar Attended" for marriages in churches which weren't C. of E. If Patrick and Mary Ann were both R.C. there may have been a church ceremony as well. If they had their children baptised in a Catholic church there may have been a "regularising" marriage ceremony around same time as a baptism. They married shortly before a change in Catholic marriage rules was applied in England 1908.
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The marriage is listed on Yorkshire BMD as the Registry Office only. There's no duplicate for a non-CofE marriage.
It says "Holbeck District Registered Building" on Yorkshire BMD. A lot of others have "Registered Building" too. I'm used to Lancashire BMD which has "Registry Office or Registrar Attended" for marriages in churches which weren't C. of E. If Patrick and Mary Ann were both R.C. there may have been a church ceremony as well. If they had their children baptised in a Catholic church there may have been a "regularising" marriage ceremony around same time as a baptism. They married shortly before a change in Catholic marriage rules was applied in England 1908.
Yes, the Holbeck Registered Building is/was a registry office. I've looked on Ancestry and there's no other entry to say there was a church ceremony. I also can't find any Baptisms for any of the children. I think the only catholic church around Holbeck is St Francis of Assisi.
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Yes, the Holbeck Registered Building is/was a registry office. I've looked on Ancestry and there's no other entry to say there was a church ceremony. I also can't find any Baptisms for any of the children. I think the only catholic church around Holbeck is St Francis of Assisi.
Just because it's not on Ancestry doesn't mean it didn't happen! :) A lot of Catholic and Non-Conformist records are not digitised.
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Yes, the Holbeck Registered Building is/was a registry office. I've looked on Ancestry and there's no other entry to say there was a church ceremony. I also can't find any Baptisms for any of the children. I think the only catholic church around Holbeck is St Francis of Assisi.
Just because it's not on Ancestry doesn't mean it didn't happen! :) A lot of Catholic and Non-Conformist records are not digitised.
There's no record of the marriage taking place anywhere other than Holbeck Registry Office and no sign that there was a ceremony/marriage in a Non-Conformist church. I've checked Ancestry, FindMyPast and YorkshireBMD and there's no sign of anything other than it being in the registry office.
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Hopefully we will find out when you receive the certificate :)
Yorkshire BMD for Leeds does not show the option ‘Registry Office/Registrar attended’ - it does for some areas but I can’t see it for Leeds.
If it were in church, there might be annotations which may help.
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I've got the marriage certificate.
Patrick Mannion 29 years. Living at 15 Clapham Street, Holbeck. Father John Mannion. General labourer.
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Thanks for the update.
Did they marry in the Registry office?
Are the witness names any help?
In reply #10 I posted 1901 census for a Mangan family and asked if you had checked those birth entries particularly the Ballina one.
Here is the birth for that Patrick.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03064/2123153.pdf
Whilst being very possible, there is nothing to confirm that Patrick in Derreen is your Patrick though.
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They married in St Francis of Assisi in Holbeck. I've no idea why it shows as the Holbeck District Registered Building.
The witnesses were Margaret's brother and a Annie Heald. I can find no connection to Annie.
The address they lived at was where Margaret's family lived at in 1901.
I've looked at the 1901 census you provided but I think Patrick would be with the family at that time. They married in 1906 and I can find him nowhere in England in 01. So I assumed he came over later.
I tried finding any possible relatives in the 1911 census living nearby but I can't see anyone with a similar job or in a similar area who's a possibility.
I know there was a Mangan family living in the same area in the 1880s as they're my family who baptised their children and married in St Francis.
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Thanks.
I think the ‘registered building’ was explained earlier re Yorkshire BMD’s indexes.
I agree that Patrick Mangan in Mayo May not be him. The father does not have the same occupation but the birthdate and father’s name fits.
With regard to 1901, there is the one in Sheffield but, again, nothing to confirm.
I, too, looked for others around who may be connected and saw the other Mangan family. Is there no connection at all there?
At least you now have the marriage details - including the family church :)
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I, too, looked for others around who may be connected and saw the other Mangan family. Is there no connection at all there?
This is one of the reasons I'm trying to find more on Patrick. Patrick is my partner's 3x great granddad. The Mangan family that lived in Camp Field - pretty close to where Patrick lived after he married and his children grew up - are related to me via my great granddad. So I think it's likely they're related in some way. My Samuel Mangan came over in the 1860s so I assume Patrick would be his cousin/nephew as Samuel's children were all born in Leeds. Maybe John Mangan/Mannion was Samuel's brother.
Thank you for showing interest.
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They married in St Francis of Assisi in Holbeck. I've no idea why it shows as the Holbeck District Registered Building.
That would have been the format for a marriage performed in a non-Anglican church. A registrar had to be present for it to be recorded as a legal marriage. Without registrar's attendance it was a religious ceremony with no legal standing. I recall registrar seated at a little table in a corner of the church, within sight and sound of the altar, getting on with paperwork during the marriage service. There was nearly an hour to fill if it was Nuptial Mass. S/he paused during the legal sections of the ceremony to watch and listen, turning attention back to work during purely religious parts. They were, in a way, operating a mobile registry office.
Registrars had an employment dispute in late 20thC and, as part of their campaign, "worked-to- rule", refusing Saturday duty. This caused problems for couples who had weddings scheduled for Saturdays in Catholic and Non-Conformist churches where the minister wasn't licensed as a registrar. Solutions included a separate registry office ceremony on a weekday and registrar attending a wedding rehearsal.
The registrar should have signed Patrick's certificate as well as the priest. C. of E. marriage certificates don't have a registrar's signature.
Did Patrick sign the marriage certificate or make his mark?
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I never knew any of that. Thank you for the explanation.
Yes, just looking now, it says
Michael McDuliffe Priest
Road Wordsworth Registrar.
In the bottom right corner. I'd noticed that there appeared to be something different on this cert but hadn't had time to compare it.
Yes he signed it. But in 1911 he put an x on the census.
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Hi,
Came across your thread as I was looking into my family heritage. My great grandparents were Patrick and Margaret Mangan from Belle Isle but we’re originally from Ireland. I think we may be looking for information into the same people.
Olivia
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Hi,
Came across your thread as I was looking into my family heritage. My great grandparents were Patrick and Margaret Mangan from Belle Isle but we’re originally from Ireland. I think we may be looking for information into the same people.
Olivia
Hi Olivia,
Yes it seems to be the same family. If you reply two more times to this thread then I can PM you my email address and we can talk more a out the family. Unfortunately we don't know much at all but there's a few things on Margaret's family, who was also of Irish descent.
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Okay, will do.
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Hope this works.
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Hope this works.
The personal message symbol below your name has turned green for online so it should be all systems go.
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I've sent you a PM Olivia.
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This is an old thread but I thought I would weigh in.
I had been searching for many years for my Mannion family in Ireland. I knew it was Mannion because it was my maiden name! Recently I got a male Mannion cousin to take a Y DNA test. Guess what - we were originally Mangan from Co. Mayo. I have, since then, found documentary evidence to confirm they were originally known as Mangan when they went from Ireland to Scotland. Later they moved to England where they were recorded as Manning/Mannioun/Man(n)ion and Mangan. Different branches of the family kept different versions of the name.
Two things affected these name changes 1) being illiterate 2) the way a west of Ireland accent would sound to an English or Scottish census taker.
I noticed someone mention that an ancestor signed the marriage certificate but but an X on census (or vice versa). We have a signature on 1911 census for my Great Grandfather. I know he was illiterate. A son/daughter or grandchild must have filled in the form and signed the name. I also have another great grandfather who appears to have signed marriage certificate but earlier records show he was illiterate. Sometimes copies of marriage certificates are rewritten by current registrar so you can't always tell which is an original signature. Sometimes it is a photocopy of original.
When you are searching use all variations of the name. DNA tests are really helpful. Remember people didn't always care about telling the truth on official forms.
The Mannion Clan website from Galway is a useful site and includes some Mangans and other variations of the name.
1901 and 1911 UK census records should show the county in Ireland that people came from. Unfortuanely earlier census just showed from Ireland. 1871 often had the county in Ireland.
Finally - I wonder if Mangan and Mannion sounded almost the same?
Cath
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Thanks for the post on this thread Cath. I think Mangan and Mannion were interchangeable. I've seen the 1921 census for Patrick and he signs as Mannion yet all of his children were registered Mangan throughout the previous 15 years.
He was from Mayo according to the 21 census.
Could you tell me where your family are from please? I have two branches of Mangans on both sides of my daughter's family and they both ended up in Leeds.
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I've looked at the 1901 census you provided but I think Patrick would be with the family at that time. They married in 1906 and I can find him nowhere in England in 01. So I assumed he came over later.
As a young single man, he may have been living in lodgings in England. His name and age on census may be incorrect.
I couldn't find my granddad from Mayo on a census and assumed he'd returned to Ireland, as he did for a while later. I was wrong. He was exactly where he should have been in England + a brother + a cousin on their mother's side were with him. Our surname was incorrectly transcribed and granddad had done his usual trick of picking an age he felt like. (He took 4 years off his age on 1921 census.) I found them when I was following my GGM's extended family.