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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: bravaal on Friday 01 March 19 11:02 GMT (UK)
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Hi Seeking some advice.
I have an extract from the adopted children's register for James Pollock, which under the heading of "date of birth where adoption order directs entry of date of birth" a date is given of 14 Jan 1932.
Is this his actual birth date or date of adoption?
bravaal
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I would say that as that column is specifically just the purpose of showing date of birth if allowed, then you can safely assume it is the date of birth.
From your question it sounds like the one thing missing from the extract is the date of adoption
Alb
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You could check the original birth certificate at the Mitchell in Glasgow or the Scotlandspeople Centre in Edinburgh. According to the 1932 index, there were only 4 boys of that name born in Scotland in that year. What would the odds be of more than one of them being born on 14th January?
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Is James Pollock the child's birth name or his adopted name?
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Hi,
Thanks for taking the time out to reply, as far as I am aware James Pollock is his birth and adopted name. The family story is the he is his sister's son adopted and brought up by his grandparents. I saw the four Pollocks (1932) but I don't think he had a middle name which they all had and the family are based around Baillieston, Bargeddie and West Maryston areas in Old Monkland.
I believe that if I sourced a death certificate I might be able to see a birth cert at Baillieston Register office.
Bravaal
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Just wonder why grandparents would adopt their own grandchild. Other chatters might know why this could happen.
When you said you've seen the four POLLOCK births, do you mean you've seen the civil registrations - and, if so, do any of them mention adoption?
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You say you will need to source his death certificate. Do you know for sure that he is deceased? Could he possibly still be alive aged 87 not all that old.
Would you happen to know his grandmother's maiden name? This could help with searching for a death if he was adopted by his grandparents. Index on SP usually give "mother's " maiden name.
Fleming - Grandparents have been known to adopt or bring up their grandchildren as their own. I have such a case in my family.
Dorrie
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Hi there Dorrie, also have grandparents bringing up grandchildren but they didn't adopt formally because the child was already in the family. Just wonder why they'd put in all the paperwork for it.
Also, can I ask Bravaal which info they're trying to source for James POLLOCK? Is it birth, adoption, death, all three, none of the above?
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I saw the four Pollocks (1932) but I don't think he had a middle name which they all had and the family are based around Baillieston, Bargeddie and West Maryston areas in Old Monkland.
I believe that if I sourced a death certificate I might be able to see a birth cert at Baillieston Register office.
Only 1 of the 4 births mentioned by Lodger was in the Lanark area.
Not understanding the ref. to finding a death & being "able to see a birth cert at Baillieston Register office"
A birth cert. can be bought at any registry office in scotland however, do you mean you think this was where James Pollock was registered?
The only Lanark birth for 'a' James Pollock 1932 was registered Bridgeton.
Although the above had a middle name, it may be an indication of who his father was & as he was adopted it's possible the adoptive parents may have dropped his middle name for reasons i.e. didn't want a reminder...?
This death may fit;
POLLOCK JAMES 76
ANDERSON (mms)
2008
562/ 105 Coatbridge (near Baillieston & Bargeddie)
Annie
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Hi,
I was trying to get his birth certificate to see who his mother was, on the adopted children register for him it says "under name and surname, occupation and address of adopter or adopters" his mother is Anderson as confirmed by Rosinish (thank you) but she is not his mother and I know this because I am in contact with his daughter who confirms the unusual circumstances of her fathers life, adopted by his grandparents
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So are you trying to narrow down which of the four births for James POLLOCK is the right one before you order the certificate?
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Hi Flemming,
I don't think he is one of the four listed and also that the date of adoption is not his birth date either.
Will try some other routes many thanks to all rootschatter's for all your help.
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I think the penny may have dropped with me, but I could be wrong! Are you saying that a death certificate for James would allow you (or next of kin) to source the adoption file so you can find out who his mother was?
Do you know whether or not the death record posted by Rosinish is the right one?
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I think the penny may have dropped with me, but I could be wrong! Are you saying that a death certificate for James would allow you (or next of kin) to source the adoption file so you can find out who his mother was?
No, that is not the case. No-one is allowed to access adoption files except the adopted person or their suitably accredited representative.
However if he died recently enough, his date of birth should be on his death certificate.
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Hi,
Yip, I would presume his birth certificate would be confidential because of adoption, but with a death certificate I might get access at his local register office which is Baillieston.
His adopted mother was Sarah Russel Anderson, father James Pollock.
Bravaal
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I think the penny may have dropped with me, but I could be wrong! Are you saying that a death certificate for James would allow you (or next of kin) to source the adoption file so you can find out who his mother was?
No, that is not the case. No-one is allowed to access adoption files except the adopted person or their suitably accredited representative.
However if he died recently enough, his date of birth should be on his death certificate.
I'm aware of that but worded the post badly. The assumption was that Bravaal (or a friend) is a direct descendent of James POLLOCK. In England/Wales, the offspring of a deceased adoptee can access the file. Is this not the case in Scotland?
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In England/Wales, the offspring of a deceased adoptee can access the file. Is this not the case in Scotland?
My understanding is that it is not the case. But I'd be happy to be proved wrong.
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In England/Wales, the offspring of a deceased adoptee can access the file. Is this not the case in Scotland?
My understanding is that it is not the case. But I'd be happy to be proved wrong.
It is possible but there are quite a few hoops to jump through - as you may need to apply to the Courts to obtain an order to allow you access
see https://www.mygov.scot/adoption-information/
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A further entry on the NRS website.
'...exceptionally, and on application to the court that originally dealt with the adoption, a person other than the adoptee may be allowed to inspect the adoption process. This is very rare and is usually only granted for reasons such as medical grounds.'
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/adoption-records
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Hi,
I was trying to get his birth certificate to see who his mother was, on the adopted children register for him it says "under name and surname, occupation and address of adopter or adopters" his mother is Anderson as confirmed by Rosinish (thank you) but she is not his mother and I know this because I am in contact with his daughter who confirms the unusual circumstances of her fathers life, adopted by his grandparents
The surname on the death is the maiden surname of his 'adopted' mother which one would expect.
You need to order the birth I mentioned as his surname is still Pollock on his death as it was when he was registered, being illegitimate i.e. his surname hasn't changed from what you say being adopted by his g/parents.
Annie
Add...I have a more recent birth for an illegitimate child who was adopted out (stated on the original birth cert.) with only his mother's name & details showing i.e. no name(s) for the adoptive parents.
I'm unsure if his birth would have been re-registered after adoption but Forfarian may know?
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I'm unsure if his birth would have been re-registered after adoption but Forfarian may know?
Adopted children are listed in the in-house birth indexes - you can tell them because the registration district shows as NRH - but they don't seem to be in the online indexes.
I have viewed a few of these records of adopted children in the Scotland's People Centre. These tell you the names, address and occupation of the adoptive parents, and the child's adoptive name and date of birth, and all the ones I have seen have given the country of birth as Scotland.
So I suppose that these adoption certificates are in effect a re-registration of the births.
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Thanks Forfarian!...
I had a feeling a re-registration would occur but wasn't sure.
However, I'm very surprised the re-reg ones are viewable in-house but good info. for myself & others to know indeed!
Annie
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When an Adoption is granted in Scotland, the Court sends the appropriate documents to the Registrar for them to docquet the original entry with the stamp "Adopted" and for the new Birth Registration to be processed. I was unaware that the re-registration was viewable by just anyone :( .
There are occasions that, if the adopted person is now deceased, the son or daughter of that person can apply/write to their nearest Sheriff Court in Scotland with their reasons for so doing to ask that a Sheriff may consider them being allowed to see the Adoption Court Process. Then it is a matter for the Sheriff and he or she may stipulate what identification that they require. It may not be allowed.
I have an instance in my own family of a child being formally adopted by his Grandparents and yet another illegitimate child was adopted outwith the family.
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I was unaware that the re-registration was viewable by just anyone :( .
They are only viewable in-house, and subject to the same rules as births less than 100 years ago. And they don't tell you anything at all about the child's biological parents.
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Not trying to muddy the waters, may be just a coincidence...
Adoptive mother/g mother was named Sarah i.e. could this death be of significance?
POLLOCK SARAH REAY 19
1932
651/ 137
Airdrie or New Monkland
Annie
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Hi
Bringing this thread up to date. I phoned the adoption services in Edinburgh and was told J Pollock was processed through Airdrie Sheriff court. I then e-mailed them with the information I was seeking and the clerk e-mailed back saying he would put my request to the Sheriff after I answered some questions he had.
They came back with; Access to records can only be granted to the adoptee’s daughter; or to yourself with the written consent of the aforesaid daughter. Please note that ID will be required from the daughter if she writes in giving you consent.
She is emailing them today but I do not see a problem, the whole process took less than a day with the court replies almost immediately.
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POLLOCK SARAH REAY 19
1932
651/ 137
Airdrie or New Monkland
Not sure if you missed this but what I was wondering was, could this have been James' mother with same forename as his adoption mother/g mother?
Annie