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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Kim Nicholls on Friday 01 March 19 02:19 GMT (UK)
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Hi fellow Rootschatters,
I am searching for anyone who has a Charles & Emily (nee Jackson) Nicholls in their family tree.
I believe they were married in 1904 however I cannot find any documentation to prove this.
Charles was born in Liverpool on 17 June 1883 an Emily on 29th October 1881. They had 7 children and perhaps another 2, which passed away. Charles was a 'Commercial Traveler'.
I would love to find any relatives connected to this couple.
Any help would be kindly appreciated. Thankyou so much.
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Hi and Welcome :)
I can't see this family in 1911, did they stay in the UK?
Debra :)
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They may not have actually married but lived as a couple.
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Is this Charles in 1901
RG13/3474 folio 160 page 32 - Everton
Charles Nicholls - Visitor - 18 - single - Commercial Traveller - born Liverpool
And his baptism - Christ Church, Everton
Charles son of Thomas (Flatman) and Anne Nicholls of 7 Beatrice Street. Born 17 June 1883, baptised 27 June 1883
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I think this is the family in 1911 minus Charles https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWT2-TLQ Both children have mother's maiden name Jackson on GRO Index
Welcome to RootsChat from me as well :)
Kay
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Yes, I was just looking at them :)
Emily NICHOLLS, Head, 30, born Manchester, Lancashire
Dorothy NICHOLLS, Daughter, 5, born Liverpool, Lancashire
William A NICHOLLS, Son, 2, born Liverpool, Lancashire
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWT2-TL7
NICOLLS, DOROTHY
Mother's maiden surname: JACKSON
GRO Reference: 1905 D Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 474
NICHOLLS, WILLIAM ALFRED
Mother's maiden surname: JACKSON
GRO Reference: 1908 D Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 608
Debra :)
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I found other births which must be the deceased children referred to - Winifred was one.
There are other births after 1911.
Just for information, Ancestry has them transcribed as Micholls.
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Hi fellow Rootschatters,
I am searching for anyone who has a Charles & Emily (nee Jackson) Nicholls in their family tree.
I believe they were married in 1904 however I cannot find any documentation to prove this.
Charles was born in Liverpool on 17 June 1883 an Emily on 29th October 1881. They had 7 children and perhaps another 2, which passed away. Charles was a 'Commercial Traveler'.
I would love to find any relatives connected to this couple.
Any help would be kindly appreciated. Thankyou so much.
Kim, where do you get the date of birth for Emily from? 1939 shows someone who may match but then other information doesn’t.
The 1911 link posted by Kay shows Emily’s place of birth as Manchester.
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That 1939 is just a coincidence, I think her maiden surname was WOODHOUSE.
Debra :)
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I didn’t think it was her so didn’t look for that marriage but wondered if that is where Kim got the information from.
There is a birth in West Derby 1st quarter 1881 with mmn Waring. Perhaps that is her - although 1911 shows Manchester.
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Charles was born in Liverpool on 17 June 1883
And his baptism - Christ Church, Everton
Charles son of Thomas (Flatman) and Anne Nicholls of 7 Beatrice Street. Born 17 June 1883, baptised 27 June 1883
That child died in 1884 - the address on the baptism, 1881 census and burial record is 7 Beatrice Street.
This is more likely to be the birth of Charles the commercial traveller:
NICHOLS, CHARLES
Mother's maiden surname: DEMPSEY
GRO Reference: 1882 D Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 392
He was visiting with Edward WAINWRIGHT in 1901 and Edward's wife's maiden surname was also DEMPSEY.
Debra :)
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Hi to all you wonderful people who replied.
I did find Charles as a visitor in the 1901 Census and I have found Emily, Alfred and Dorothy in the 1911 Census. I assumed Thomas & Ann were Charles parents as it was a process of elimination with the births on his birthdate. Thomas was born in Middlesex London. I guess that would be my next step in the research trail.
My thoughts still come back to how people could have so many children and not be married? Would it have been frowned upon then? Perhaps Charles or Emily were already married to other people?
Christ Church in Everton (where Charles was christened) was bombed during WW11 so perhaps the paperwork was destroyed? So many questions!!! Fasinating & frustrating.
Thankyou again. Kim from Australia
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Please see my post #10. The son of Thomas and Ann died in 1884.
Debra :)
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Hi Debra,
Yes after reading all of the replies I have come to the conclusion that I may not have the correct Charles Nicholls after all! My father was one of his 7 children and was quite non disclosive about his childhood. Family gossip said we had Italian in the family but it was "hushed'. Who knows.....another research topic.
I,m going back to square 1, which is my fathers birth certificate.
Registration District: West Derby, sub district: Wavertree.
Arthur Nicholls Born: 13 Dec 1913
Father: Charles Nicholls Occupation: General Dealer
Mother: Emily Nicholls (formerly Jackson)
Address: 16 King Street Garston
Any ideas Debra where I go from here without a marriage certificate?
I bet there,s a few skeletons in this family. Ha
Kind Regards, Kim :)
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Just to throw another possible spanner in the works a family tree on Anc lists Charles Nicholls son of Charles Nicholls and Mary Jane Dempsey as marrying an Elizabeth.
On Anc there a marriage on Anc on 16 August 1903 of a Charles Nicholls to an Elizabeth Nott (both age 22) in Everton, Liverpool with one of the witnesses listed as Jane James Dempsey. Charles is listed as a Vanman with father Charles Nicholls a Labourer I think this is Charles and Elizabeth in 1911 with the children's names listed with mother's maiden name Nott on the GRO Birth Index. Charles is a Dealer Greengrocer. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWT2-X48
Could the reason be that Charles Nicholls didn't marry Emily Jackson be that he had already married Elizabeth Nott?? :-\
Kay
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Kay,
Glad to see your post. I was just going to post the same information and working out how to post each bit as it fits. :)
Heywood
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Charles and Elizabeth are shown in 1939 index
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It is rather a conundrum :)
And you beat me to the 1939 with Charles birth date listed as 27 Aug 1881 ??
Kay
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It doesn’t quite fit does it but the Dempsey/Wainwright connection does.
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Have to do the Sat shop etc - I am sure you all will have solved it by the time I get back ;D
Kay
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Just to mention that the witness to the marriage was James Dempsey not Jane.
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How interesting! There,s a name for a man like him these days. Ha ha. I wonder if he and Elizabeth had children?
My dad (Arthur) birth certificate (1913) does state that Charles claims to be a "general dealer'.
On his older Williams (1908) birth certificate it states Charles is a "Oil Manafacturer Traveller'.
Ive just spoken with a cousin and she claimed that Charles changed his name from an Italian surname to Nicholls and that he was gone for long periods of time away from the family. The family thought he returned to Italy quite a bit.
Sound to me like he was perhaps leading a double life. My father said the family had a delicatessen when they were growing up......just to add more confusion.
I really appreciate everyones help. I,m not sure I,ll ever get to the truth about the allusive Charles Nicholls.
Two years ago I did my DNA with Anc and I have yet to have any matches with a surname Nicholls. Lots of Italians from the U.S, but alas no connection has been discovered.
Perhaps a DNA with a British organisation would have produced better results.
Kind Regards, Kim
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There is not enough evidence to be sure that the two men are the same person.
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Do you have information re Emily?
I asked about her birthdate earlier.
When did she die?
Do you have addresses for her from children’s events?
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Hi Heywood.
I got Emily,s birthdate from my cousin (she is Dorothy,s granddaughter). Dorothy was the eldest child of Charles & Emily and was often called Dolly.
Emily,s birthdate was 29th October 1881. She was born in Manchester U.K (According to the 1911 Census). We always thought she was from Scotland. She died in 1975. I am not sure where.
When Emily,s eldest child William was born, she lived at 4 Bibby Street West Derby Liverpool.
When my father was born in 1913, they lived at 16 King Street Garston Liverpool.
That,s all I know about her...unfortunately.
Kind Regards, Kim
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The only death which would apply with those dates is this
Emily Nicholls 93 yrs birth date 29th October 1881
Death June 1975
Lancaster Vol. 40 pg 1673
This ties in with 1939 register and this death
Ambrose Nicholls 80 yrs
Death March 1960 Lancaster vol 10c pg 664
Probate for Ambrose of Silverdale, Lancashire was granted to Emily Nicholls, widow and Stanley Herbert Allen Nicholls, Farmer.
Stanley H A Nicholls birth 1927 mmn Nicholls so not much help there
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Hi Heywood,
To my knowledge, 3 of the female children moved to Warwickshire. I don,t ever remember hearing the area of Lancaster mentioned. But you never know.
I had a thought. If I attempted to trace Charles through war records; would they show next of kin and addresses?
Kind regards, Kim
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War records might do - I have tried but may have missed him.
I wonder where your cousin got the birth and death details from?
It doesn’t seem that the Lancaster details describe your Emily :-\
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There is a published tree for Ambrose and Emily Nicholls. I don’t think that the birth and death you have quoted is your Emily.
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I wonder if this is your ‘Italian’ connection?
Liverpool Electoral Registers show this:
1925 50 Chester Road
Emily Nicholls
Daniel Porcellia
This looks like Daniel in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWTK-CD7
More importantly, Daniel died 1933 and probate was granted to Emily Jackson, spinster.
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Emily is still at 50 Chester Road in 1929/30
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Is this your father?
Arthur Nicholls 17 yrs arriving Montreal 7th December 1931? His address is 30 Brookland Road, Stoneycroft, Liverpool.
Daniel Porcelli died in hospital but his address on the probate record is 30 Brookland Road.
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When my father was born in 1913, they lived at 16 King Street Garston Liverpool.
More complications - or interesting facts :)
Electoral rolls
1920 16 King Street Garston
James and Rosanna Nicholls
Likely to be this James and Rosanna in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWTR-XKS
James Nicholls married Rosanna Southall in 1904
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Is this your father?
There's a school record for Arthur Nicholls in Liverpool, I think it came online just yesterday ;D
St John the Baptist Church of England School, Tuebrook
Admitted 16.10.22
Arthur Nicholls
born 18.12.13
parent Charles, occupation Provision Dealer
residence 50 Chester Rd
previous school Ashfield St
Baptisms also added yesterday, possibly including
Garston St Michael
20th Dec 1913
born 18 Dec 1913
Arthur
parents Charles + Emily Nicholls
16 King St
father a General Dealer
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This looks to be James in 1881 - no brother Charles
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27J-R4ZD
James in 1891 still no Charles but liv8 g in Manchester
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q5QC-T3Z
Perhaps it is just coincidence re the surname and address :-\
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Looks good Jon :)
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Now as Daniel Porcelli was also a Provisions Dealer ... :-\
Can you find him in any directories after 1911, Jon?
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Hi
I haven't found any yet!
On the baptisms, there were some more after Arthur, the last I can see is Beatrice May, born 1 May 1918, bap 15 May 1918 at Liverpool, St Martin-In-The-Fields.
On which it says parents Charles + Emily, 41 Athol Street, General Dealer.
Emily Nicholls is indexed at that address in 1920, and I can go back to Autumn 1919 when she is again the only person listed at 41 Athol (none in the Division 2 voters either)
So all very intriguing!
John
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Looking at burial records, Daniel is buried in the Porcelli family grave and his wife Mary/Maria is too.
He and his wife are together in 1911.
Rose Hannah is still at King Street in 1938 - a draper.
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Good Morning Fellow Rootschatters,
Wow ...so much information to digest. Yes that would be my father at school in Tuebrook.
I didn,t mention that the family surname was previously Porcelli as I wasn,t sure if it was true or not. When I stayed with my aunt (Ruth)in Birmingham in the 1980,s, she told me that was what our surname should be Porcelli, but she wasn,t sure why it was changed. She claimed it was Porcelli or Parcelli. However looking into it I found the surname could be spelt as Piscelli,Pacelli,Passali,Porcelli,Piselli and Pisselli.
I did find a Porcelli family (who owned a grocers) in Liverpool, in one of the Census, however none of the names of the children rang any bells, so I dismissed it.
Rumor or fact??? My DNA on Anc showed 11 percent Italian, however when I updated it recently it showed 4 percent. Questionable....If my paternal grandfather was Italian, I would have thought the percentage would be higher.
Kind Regards, Kim
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I thought I,d add the 7 childrens birth years. I,m not sure if it,s of any help.
Dorothy- 1905
William Alfred- 1908
May- ?
Arthur- 1913
Ruth- 1916 (Birth Certificate shows date of 5th July,address is 41 Athol Street)
Josephine/Josie-1919
Marie/Maree- 1921
Kind Regards, Kim
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Just a quick reply to Heywood,
I don,t recognise the names James & Roseanna, nor Ambrose.
My dad may have been in Montreal in 1931. He did not speak at all about his past. I know from his eulogy that he was serving in the British Army in India at 17. He was in the RAF during WW2, as an observer in fighter aircraft. Again....I don,t know how much is fact or fiction.
In the 1881 & 1901 Census, lived a Joseph & Elizabeth Nicholls at 15 King Street. Relation somehow?
Lastly, I came across an old note I had written many years ago with the name Daniel Francis Porcelli on it, and his father being called Angelo. Maybe the same Daniel?
Kind regards, Kim
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I thought I,d add the 7 childrens birth years. I,m not sure if it,s of any help.
Dorothy- 1905
William Alfred- 1908
May- ?
Arthur- 1913
Ruth- 1916 (Birth Certificate shows date of 5th July,address is 41 Athol Street)
Josephine/Josie-1919
Marie/Maree- 1921
Kind Regards, Kim
You have missed Beatrice M. born 1918.
On the baptisms, there were some more after Arthur, the last I can see is Beatrice May, born 1 May 1918, bap 15 May 1918 at Liverpool, St Martin-In-The-Fields.
On which it says parents Charles + Emily, 41 Athol Street, General Dealer.
Emily and some of her children were living in Birmingham in 1939.
Debra :)
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Hi Debra,
We all just called her 'May'. I never knew her name was Beatrice. My father, Arthur, even called her May. Perhaps she didn,t like her first name.
It definitely looks like that,s her though on the Baptism record. She married a man called Tom (Thomas?). That,s all I know about her.
I only met Ruth, Marie/Maree and May (Beatrice). The daughters all lived in Birmingham in the 1980,s.
I wish I had asked more questions about the family. Was their dad Charles Nicholls or Daniel Porcelli? I wonder if people could just change their name or just start using a different name?
Food for thought.
Kim :)
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Is this your father?
Arthur Nicholls 17 yrs arriving Montreal 7th December 1931? His address is 30 Brookland Road, Stoneycroft, Liverpool.
I am seeing Arthur departing Liverpool for Halifax in July 1930 on the Arabic, address 50 Chester Road, Tuebrook, and then arriving back in Liverpool from Montreal in Dec 1931 on the Antonia with his address as 30 Brookland Road, Stoneycroft, Liverpool.
His departure in 1930 shows him as part of a group of British Immigration and Colonization Association boys.
https://www.british-immigrants-in-montreal.com/bica-boys.html
Debra :)
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Beatrice married Thomas G. ROBERTS in 1942.
Debra :)
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Has Dorothy's granddaughter done a DNA test to compare with you? My initial thoughts are that all of Emily's children do not share the same father. Did Emily herself register all of the births that you have certificates for?
Debra :)
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Hi Debra,
The MIKA boys is really interesting. He returned the following year. I wonder why? It definitely sounds like him. Perhaps he returned to join the British army. As in one of my previous posts; his eulogy stated that he went to India at 17 with the British Army. Strange but interesting. After WW2 he worked as a steward on a ship (I assume passenger) so he did like to travel. Ending up in Australia in 1960.
An interesting note here is that my father had a first wife (Gladys I think) and they had 2 children (Maureen & Daniel). The children ended up in an orphanage and then he married my mum. Mum always suspected he was never divorced from his first wife. Skeletons in that closet...yes I think so.
My cousin has not done a DNA test and I suspected that not all Emily's children were to Charles.
I have Arthurs' and William Alfred,s birth Certificate. My cousin has Ruths.
Kind Regards, Kim
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Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. I do not think Ambrose and Emily are connected but that Emily has the birth and death date you have quoted from cousin Dorothy. I suspect she has mistakenly assumed them to be your Emily’s records.
Your link to the surname Porcelli would confirm the information I found and Jon supported earlier, together with Arthur’s addresses confirmed by Debra.
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Daniel’s will might explain something of the relationship. You can send for a copy.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#calendar
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Hi Heywood,
So I have the wrong birthdate and death date for my Emily.
Perhaps that is why she was difficult to find.
Makes more sense now. Thankyou,
Kind Regards, Kim
I will definitely send away for a copy of the will.
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Emily and some of her children were living in Birmingham in 1939.
Debra :)
You can work out the date of birth that Emily gave from just using the advanced options in the free index, you just narrow down the day and month until you get a result.
13 May 1879
Debra :)
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On F M P the date is mistrancribed as 13 Oct 1879 :)
Kay
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Hi Debra,
Sorry for the late response. I am 8 or 10 hours in front of the U.K, so I,ts Monday morning here.
What website has the free options you mentioned? Is it Family Search?
Kay mentioned the FindMyPast. Is that another website?
Kind Regards, Kim
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Found Daniel Porcelli on Find My Past.
1891- Living at Hunter Street Liverpool (Birth-year is 1863) Organ Grinder
1901- Living at 66 Christian street Liverpool (Birth-year is 1859) Provision dealer
1911- Living at 87 Brunswick road Liverpool (Birth-year is 1859) Provision Dealer- Retailer
There's a few Emily Jacksons born in 1881. Still sifting through them. :)
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According to Kay and Debra, Emily’s birthdate is 13 May 1879 (possibly transcribed wrongly elsewhere). See posts #51 and #52.
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Thankyou :)
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I received a copy of Daniels will.
He left all of his money to Emily Jacksons 7 children, but failed to mention the relationship with the family.
Thankyou to all contributors of this thread. You have all helped me a great deal.
Kim ;D
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Thanks for the update, Kim. :)