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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Sairin8 on Thursday 28 February 19 22:58 GMT (UK)
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Obviously I've drawn the short straw with these names, but it's worth a try.
Mary is believed to have been born Mary Taylor/Tayler (another source suggests Dial/Dyal) in Dublin, Ireland, in 1823, and had children (including my gg grandmother, Catherine, in 1851) in Tasmania with John Smith, before moving to New Zealand and possibly having more children. They settled in Bannockburn, where Mary remarried in 1870 (to Samuel Champion). The marriage certificate states she was a widow. Mary died in 1898 as Mary Champion in Invercargill. No probate for either Samuel or Mary. Samuel and Mary owned a pub after they married, and Mary was convicted of being a sly grog seller several months before they married.
I've not found much on John Smith at all. There's a rumour that he died in 1866 shortly after the family arrived in Bannockburn. They may have lived in Tinkers (Matakanui) and Cardrona before moving to Bannockburn. However, I've not found evidence of this as yet.
Any leads/suggestions/ideas for finding out more about this line? I've ordered Mary's death certificate (printout), but have to wait till it arrives. No idea which death certificate is John's as there are at least 8 possible contenders
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OTAGO DAILY TIMES, ISSUE 250, 8 OCTOBER 1862
John Smith barber of Waikouti remanded for forging a cheque
Ciderdrinker
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You are researching the origins of gg grandmother Catherine SMITH? And Catherine married in NZ?
Can you list all the information on her marriage certificate please.
Can you list all the information on the death record, 1898, for Mary, mother of Catherine.
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Both Catherine’s marriages were before 1880, so lack the info I’m after (which is why I haven’t purchased them). As I said in my original post, I am still waiting for Mary’s death certificate to arrive
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Mary’s second marriage certificate can be found here
http://oldbannockburn.nz/ImagePage?image_id=2350&page_number=1
Witnesses are her daughter Catherine and Catherine’s first husband. (Though technically Catherine and Alfred didn’t actually marry till a couple of years later)
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OTAGO DAILY TIMES, ISSUE 250, 8 OCTOBER 1862
John Smith barber of Waikouti remanded for forging a cheque
Ciderdrinker
Mmm...Waikouaiti is a long way from Bannockburn - 208km by road, now.
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How have you established Mary's birthdate? Is it by age at death? Who was the informant in the death certificate?
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The marriage record, 1870, CHAMPION - SMITH, shows that Mary is not literate,
witnesses are Alfred PERRY and Catherine PERRY (x)
NZ BDM marriage
1871/6285 Catherine SMITH marr. Alfred PERRY
1879/2554 Catherine PERRY marr. William DICKEY
Do you have this marriage record, 1879?
NZ BDM death
1930/2121 DICKEY Catherine 78Y
Burial Bromley Cemetery
died 25 May 1930 bur. 27 May 1930
DICKEY Catherine 78 yrs, widow, years in NZ 74 (no other burial in the plot)
Cromwell Argus 17 May 1881
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CROMARG18810517.2.10?
...Mary CHAMPION against Samuel CHAMPION........support of self and one child.....
What children do you have for Mary and Samuel CHAMPION?
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Waiting on my copy of the death certificate, but another researcher who has proven trustworthy has noted the informant was the undertaker. Suspect the birth year was calculated from there as well
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I don’t have any children listed for Mary and Samuel, none are listed on the BDM site. Possibly this in relation to one of Mary’s other children from her first marriage.
I don’t have a copy of either of Catherine’s marriage certificates. The more detailed information didn’t come onto the marriage certificates till 1880, so both would have had the same amount of info. (Blasted ancestors all marrying in 1879 - I have this issue on several lines). I have these details recorded and verified by various sources, but don’t have a copy of the actual certificates.
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In the Tasmanian records (Campbell Town) on FS there is an unnamed female born to John Smith and Mary DALE Smith on 28/4/1850.
Said with my vaguely Irish NZ accent (per long ago irish grandmother) it could be heard as Dale, Dial or Deal.
How certain are you of Catherine's birth date? Or is this an older sister?
Another child from FS
Name Smith
Gender Male
Birth Date 16 Oct 1854
Birthplace , TASMANIA, AUSTRALIA
Father's Name John Smith
Mother's Name Mary Dale
And another possibly
Name Smith
Event Type Birth
Event Date 7 Mar 1869
Event Place Campbell Town, Tasmania, Australia
Gender Female
Father's Name John Smith
Mother's Name Dale Mary Smith
Name Benjamin Smith
Event Type Birth
Event Date 6 Mar 1852
Event Place Campbell Town, Tasmania, Australia
Gender Male
Father's Name John Smith
Mother's Name Dale Mary Smith
Name Ernest Herbert Smith
Event Type Birth
Event Date 10 Jan 1856
Event Place Campbell Town, Tasmania, Australia
Gender Male
Father's Name John Smith
Mother's Name Mary Dale Smith
Certificate Number 763
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Australia Births and Baptisms, 1792-1981
birth: 16 October 1854 , TASMANIA, AUSTRALIA
father: John Smith
mother: Mary Dale
Ernest Herbert Smith
Australia, Tasmania, Civil Registration (District Registers), 1839-1938
birth: 10 January 1856 Campbell Town, Tasmania, Australia
father: John Smith
mother: Mary Dale Smith
Smith
Australia, Tasmania, Civil Registration (District Registers), 1839-1938
birth: 20/6/1852 Campbell Town, Tasmania, Australia
father: John Smith
mother: Mary Dale
Lewis Smith
Australia, Tasmania, Civil Registration (District Registers), 1839-1938
birth: 20 June 1862 Campbell Town, Tasmania, Australia
father: John Smith
mother: Mary Dale Smith
Minnie Smith
Australia, Tasmania, Civil Registration (District Registers), 1839-1938
birth: 28 January 1866 Campbell Town, Tasmania, Australia
father: John Smith
mother: Mary Dale Smith
Smith
Australia, Tasmania, Civil Registration (District Registers), 1839-1938
birth: 24 August 1863 Campbell Town, Tasmania, Australia
father: John Smith
mother: Mary Dale Smith
Smith
Australia, Tasmania, Civil Registration (District Registers), 1839-1938
birth: 16 October 1854 Campbell Town, Tasmania, Australia
father: John Smith
mother: Mary Dale Smith
Smith
Australia, Tasmania, Civil Registration (District Registers), 1839-1938
birth: 8 April 1850 Campbell Town, Tasmania, Australia
father: John Smith
mother: Mary Dale Smith
Benjamin Smith
Australia, Tasmania, Civil Registration (District Registers), 1839-1938
birth: 6 March 1852 Campbell Town, Tasmania, Australia
father: John Smith
mother: Mary Dale Smith
Not Given Smith
Australia Births and Baptisms, 1792-1981
birth: 24 August 1863 Campbell Town, Tasmania, Australia
residence: 1863 Tasmania, Australia
father: John Smith
mother: Mary Dale
Smith MALE
Australia Births and Baptisms, 1792-1981
birth: 20 June 1862 CAMPBELL TOWN, TASMANIA, AUSTRALIA
residence: 1862 Tasmania, Australia
father: John Smith
mother: Mary Dale
The child born in 1869 was subsequently named Louise Charlotte according to the register. John Smith was still alive to register the child on 27/3/1869 so that closes the gap for his death.
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The 1869 birth looks to be a bit late, but will definitely investigate the others when I’m back on the computer.
There’s also a possibility of the surname Doyle, and we’ve found orphanage records which shows the correct ages (pretty much to the day) for Catherine and two of her brothers as Mary was about to travel to NZ to chase John after he deserted her. If so, Mary Doyle arrived in Tasmania on the Arabian in 1847 after conviction in Dublin in October 1846 (there’s 2 Mary Doyle’s on the Arabian, both convicted in Dublin in October 1846, just got to work out which one). And John Smith would have arrived on the Palmyra (with three other John Smith’s!) in 1846. Still chasing this link to see if we can confirm or deny
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Children we have listed for John and Mary
Catherine Smith
BIRTH 17 Nov 1851 in Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
DEATH 25 May 1930 in Christchurch, Canterbury, New Zealand
William Smith
Son
BIRTH 15 May 1853
DEATH
John Fredrick Smith
Son
BIRTH 26 Dec 1856
DEATH
Walter Smith
Son
BIRTH 10 Oct 1858
DEATH
Mary Smith
Daughter
BIRTH 14 July 1862
DEATH
Tom Smith
Son
BIRTH 12 March 1865
DEATH
Dolly - Lishe Smith
Daughter
BIRTH 25 Jan 1867
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NZ BDM births
1870/40451 PERRY Jane parents Kathrine / Alfred
1872/40156 PERRY Alice Maria parents Catherine / Alfred
873/27739 PERRY Alfred parents Catherine / Alfred
1874/40806 PERRY William parents Catherine / Alfred
1876/15212 PERRY John parents Catherine / Alfred
1881/9892 DICKEY David parents Catherine / William
1880/4046 DICKEY Thomas Henry parents Catherine / William
1882/18538 DICKEY Robert William parents Catherine / William
1884/13973 DICKEY Rose Ann Margaret parents Catherine / William
1885/14992 DICKEY Henry Alexander parents Catherine / William
1887/18526 DICKIE Joseph Herbert parents Catherine / William
1889/3447 DICKEY Martha Maud parents Catherine / William
1892/8756 DICKEY Ernest Albert parents Catherine / William
1899/1678 DICKEY Mallelta May parents Catherine / William
Any birth record, 1875+, will record age and birthplace for parents.
Do you have a birth record with information about mother Catherine, preferably with Catherine as informant?
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It won’t record those details for grandparents though, and that’s what I’m looking for. I’m looking for Mary and John’s details, not Catherine’s
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The 1869 birth looks to be a bit late, but will definitely investigate the others when I’m back on the computer.
There’s also a possibility of the surname Doyle, and we’ve found orphanage records which shows the correct ages (pretty much to the day) for Catherine and two of her brothers as Mary was about to travel to NZ to chase John after he deserted her. If so, Mary Doyle arrived in Tasmania on the Arabian in 1847 after conviction in Dublin in October 1846 (there’s 2 Mary Doyle’s on the Arabian, both convicted in Dublin in October 1846, just got to work out which one). And John Smith would have arrived on the Palmyra (with three other John Smith’s!) in 1846. Still chasing this link to see if we can confirm or deny
OK so it was Doyle not Dial...quite a bit of difference between them. The Registrar is hearing Dale and the informant John Smith is obviously saying it so Registrar hears it this way. Unlikely that Registrar would have misheard as Doyle would have been far more usual to hear Doyle than Dale.
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You need to see what Catherine records about herself........not what is recorded about her by others.
NZ BDM death
1892/6293 CHAMPION Samuel 73Y
This will ask for details about children. Do you have this record?
At 1881...child maintenance matter.........I wonder if Samuel would be responsible to support children not born to him?
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Given that every single record from BDM is $25 each, I’m not buying all of these records. I’m not looking for Catherine, I’m looking for Mary and John. Please focus on these two
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The 1869 birth looks to be a bit late, but will definitely investigate the others when I’m back on the computer.
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A bit late for what?
Do you have details of when the family arrived in NZ? It is not unusual at all for there to be a prompt marriage after the death especially when there are lots of children to support. And it may have been the first legal marriage as the earlier partnership with John Smith may not have been legal.
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A bit late for an Australian born child.
Mary married in NZ in 1870. She was earlier convicted of being a sly grog seller at the start of 1870, and was well settled in the community by this point (as her fine was paid in about 5 minutes by a large number of diggers waiting outside the court - pretty interesting story, btw).
There appears to be evidence she was in Bannockburn from 1866, plus appears to have taken John to court in 1863 in NZ.
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Given that every single record from BDM is $25 each, I’m not buying all of these records. I’m not looking for Catherine, I’m looking for Mary and John. Please focus on these two
Thanks will do but the information you are giving keeps altering a little Dial, Taylor, now Doyle.
Most of us genealogists who do a lot of helping on these boards often do the equivalent of an athlete's warm-up to get the focus going and more importantly to replicate or disprove or add to the information that has been given. Once that is disposed of we then move onto other aspects. This is very much best procedural practice for us.
Family stories are great and often there is an element of truth in them....could you possibly identify/separate them out from the factual material though.
When did John come to NZ? Evidenced by?
Were they ever together in NZ
What evidence is there, apart from the later marriage certificate of his wife, that John Smith himself was ever in Bannockburn.
Did Mary come back and forth to NZ twice? Once to chase John and the other to bring the children?
What religion were they? Important to be able to search in Ireland?
What is the evidence that Mary arrived on the ship after being convicted?
What is the evidence that she came from Dublin, also important for Irish searching
Why/where does Taylor/Tayler come into it? Why are these names even mentioned?
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Ok presumably you have evidence that she was in Bannockburn from 1866 etc & took John to court in 1863.
Where has the Taylor/Dial surnames come from?
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Children we have listed for John and Mary
Catherine Smith
BIRTH 17 Nov 1851 in Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
DEATH 25 May 1930 in Christchurch, Canterbury, New Zealand
William Smith
Son
BIRTH 15 May 1853
DEATH
John Fredrick Smith
Son
BIRTH 26 Dec 1856
DEATH
Walter Smith
Son
BIRTH 10 Oct 1858
DEATH
Mary Smith
Daughter
BIRTH 14 July 1862
DEATH
Tom Smith
Son
BIRTH 12 March 1865
DEATH
Dolly - Lishe Smith
Daughter
BIRTH 25 Jan 1867
Please advise which are Australian and which are NZ registered births. Presume the last two were NZ births?
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These names are comin from different sources. The Doyle was from another forum where I received a good amount of help at the time I posted. These information I have keeps getting added to. As I noted, the Doyle surname was merely a possibility that we are looking at.
John Smith is very much the enigma in this situation. The only potential evidence of them being together in NZ was the birth of the youngest daughter in 1865 after the court case in 1863 (obviously possible non-paternal event, of course)
Taylor is the name on Mary’s death certificate - apparently no first names for the parents though. There is now a suspicion that it was incorrect. I believe Dublin was on the birth certificate as well. Informant was the undertaker rather than family.
Religion varied from document to document - Mary was buried Baptist, married Presbyterian, and may have been Catholic at some stage.
Number of trips between Tasmania and NZ unknown. Various death certificates suggest 1860 and 1856 as possibilities as well, but of course these were decades after the fact.
We already have enough of the details verified via multiple sources for Catherine, her husbands, and children. For me to go into these details would significantly sidetrack my search. My fellow researcher actually DNA matches fairly closely to me and he’s related through Catherine’s first husband, while I descend via her second. (Ancestry suggests 4th cousin, paper trails suggests half second cousin once removed).
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I’m actually struggling to find any of them registered in either country. That will have to wait till I’ve got a free hour or two though (tomorrow, if I’m lucky; next weekend, if I’m not)
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Though I am still new at navigating the Tasmanian record system... Familiar enough with the NZ system (though with a surname like Smith, it’s always trickier). No births registered on 25/1/1867 for a Smith in NZ
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Here are some details about Samuel Champion charged and gaoled in 1881:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=15423655&digital=yes
[Go to Discharged Prisoners and then page 181].....
Minniehaha.
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Oh, he disobeyed the maintenance order. Not too surprised, he has no probate due to having less than a pound to his name at death (a decade later, but the lack of money fits). Thanks for that link.
Though I’m wondering what a seaman was doing living in Bannockburn (and dying in Tapanui). He was a hotelier through most of the 1870’s, owning the Miner’s Arms or Miner’s Rest In Bannockburn (name changes from advert to advert), so maybe the occupation of seaman was in his earlier years
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Could this be your Mary & John in 1863?........
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT18631120.2.24?query=mary%20smith&phrase=2&page=5&start_date=01-01-1839&end_date=31-12-1870&snippet=true&title=LCM,LCP,LWM,ME,MIC,MTBM,NOT,OAM,ODT,OSWCC,OW,ST,TT,SOCR,WSTAR,AHCOG,BH,CL,CROMARG,DUNST,ESD
Minniehaha.
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Yes, we believe so. (Of course, with those names it’s going to be hard to be 100% sure).
Must figure out if Governor Browne was Tasmania or NZ (don’t recognise him as NZ, but that doesn’t mean much).
It’s actually kinda interesting to read it again in light of the potential evidence we found on Friday... Apparently this mentions an older sibling of 13 - maybe the one left in Melbourne. (Note: I’m struggling to read the writing, so going by what my co-researcher has read). (Second note: this links to page 11, but it continues on pages 12 and 13).
https://stors.tas.gov.au/SWD26-1-6$init=SWD26-1-6p013?fbclid=IwAR2Hu3I4ib-frhTgMKqVeSC6-D6eHIDqC8N2RqOXaTG-xo6ddv8G2ikzLwE
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Bother, that didn’t link properly.
Looks like Thomas Gore Browne was governor of both NZ and Tasmania (and St Helena) at various times. 1863 was when he was Tasmania’s governor, having finished up in NZ in 1861
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Hmmm... looking at the dates, we’re missing two children (possibly including the 13 year old mentioned above, but including one in NZ). This one definitely fits with the John Smith who arrived in Tasmania on the Palmyra and the Mary Doyle on the Arabian.
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Image 11
January 20th 1863 Application for admission
SMITH Mary 1 Creswell Row Macquarie St
Catherine SMITH 11y 2m 5d baptised by Rev M KETCHER
William SMITH 9y 8m 12d baptised by Rev J BUTLER
John SMITH 6y " 22d baptised by Rev J BUTLER
Religion Catholic
Father: John SMITH , resident New Zealand, Religion Church of England
Arrived "Palmyra" 1846 bond hairdresser
Mother: Mary DOYLE 3rd, resident 1 Creswell Row, Catholic
Arrived: "Arabian" 1847 bond
Free by Servitude pardoned 1 Oct 1863
Employed: Day work and selling fruit.
Overwritten with "Discharged mother 26 Feb 1863"
Image 12
The father has gone to New Zealand. The mother is very poor. There are three more children with the mother. Alice 7y and 6m, *** 4y and 3m, Mary Ann 7m. Assistance is received from The Benevolent Society.
Report
Applicants husband deserted her 15 months since. No steps has yet been taken to compel him to maintain his family. The mother has received information from good authority that he is now on the diggings New Zealand and in good circumstances.
She has lately received charitable assistance *** individuals as well as relief from The Benevolent Society.
It is the mothers intention should the application be granted to proceed to New Zealand at once - with a view to finding her husband for this purpose she has saved a small sum of money *** in expectation of further assistance which will enable her to purchase a passage for herself and infant.
A neighbour named FLANAGAN has offered to take remaining children and keep them until she receives word from the mother as to their disposal.
In addition to the above named children she has also a lad 13 years in the service of one **** of Port Cygnet. 20 Jan 1863
Image 13
As it appears that the man is known to be in New Zealand and the woman is ****dingly making preparations to join him the Court consider the cheapest plan for the Government here will be to give her sufficient to pay for her passage and that of her children to that colony. In the meantime the Court wish further enquiry to be made about her from The Benevolent Society and also with respect to the husbands having been now in New Zealand. 21 Jan 1863
Reference appears of the admission of the youngest child upon Colonial funds 13 July
Image 14 Catherine and William SMITH
aged 11y 2m 5d
9y 8m 12d
Religion Roman Catholic
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Oh that helps heaps! Could the missing name possibly be Walter? As that’s the name in the tree that’s missing from that list. Alice is missing from our tree, but the others fit the dates perfectly
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Hello Posters -
NZ BDM lists the 1899 birth of Mallelta May Dickey to Catherine McMorrine Dickey and Samuel Dickey – not
Catherine and William Dickey, as suggested. No direct connection. (I am a direct descendant of Catherine nee Smith/ PERRY and William Dickey).
Mallelta’s parents were married in 1898.
There is no direct connection to Mary & John Smith, ex Tasmania to NZ. Catherine nee Smith/ PERRY/DICKEY was the daughter of Mary Smith, one of the subjects of this topic. Regards – Dinny.