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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Tigers on Thursday 28 February 19 09:55 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I am looking for assistance in finding death records for George Brown & Hannah Brown (née Woodward) who died in Manila, Philippines in 1850. George had been working in an iron foundry in Sydney prior to his death. At the time of his death George was 25 and Hannah was 23.
This one has really got me stumped and any assistance is appreciated.
Thanks,
Paul
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There is a record for the death of a George Brown in Manila
Nat Archives/GRO Overseas Deaths 1849-1854 - Vol 1 Page 703
It might be him.
Gadget
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Hi,
There is an RChatter who lives in the Phillipines.
I wonder if he can help? I will send him a PM
JM
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Gadget,
I am not a member of that site. Can you see the cocument and is there one for zhannah?
Thanks,
Paul
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Hi I am in the Philippines and I live in the Central Visayans (Bohol) and there are 7000 islands in the Philippines and about 1000 islands are populated.
There may be records in one region of part Manila City Hall. I don't believe these records (if any exist) will be on line and it would need a personal visit the the particular city hall where the deaths were reported.
Unless it was murder or a drowning I doubt you will bottom the cause of death (if they both died in the Philippines) as even today an autopsy is not held unless an individual family will pay the cost.
Maybe you have the following information already?
I did find this Australian newspaper article as follows in family announcements:
Bell's Life in Sydney and Sporting Reviewer (NSW) Sat 7th Sept. 1850
" DIED.
At Manila, in April last, in the 25th year of
his age, Mr. George Brown, for many years in
the employ of Mr. Richard Dawson, iron-
founder, of this city.
At the same place, in May, in the 23rd year
of her age, Mrs. Brown, wife of the above, and
eldest daughter of the late Mr. Edward Wood-
hart, of Phillip-street, in this city. "
Andy_T
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It says that they had been living in Sydney but died in Manila. There is no death ecord in Australia where we also have a town called Manila which is a farming area. I believe that Manila, Philippines had a strong iron foundry industry and George's skills would have made the move more likely
Thanks,
Paul
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Gadget,
I am not a member of that site. Can you see the cocument and is there one for zhannah?
Thanks,
Paul
There is nothing but this entry in the death records. It's an official source so you'd have to go via the Nat Archives at Kew or the Eng & Wales GRO.
Gadget
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I assume death of a foreigner would be reported to the Embassy supporting that nationality and that is a standard practice nowadays (I don't know about reporting deaths of foreign nationals to consulates in 1850).
George & Hannah Brown were both Australian nationals at the time of their deaths - right?
If so you could try sending an email and ask if there is any record of these deaths held by them?
Public-Affairs-MNLA@dfat.gov.au
ADDRESS Australian Embassy in Manila, Philippines Level 23-Tower 2, RCBC Plaza 6819 Ayala Avenue Makati City P.O.Box 1071 Manila Philippines
TELEPHONE (+63) 2 757 8100
FAX (+63) 2 757 8268
WEBSITE philippines.embassy.gov.au
Andy_T
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I think they would also be British subjects at that time.
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Here we are:
Throughout the 1960s, Australian citizens were still required to declare their nationality as British. The term ‘Australian nationality’ had no official recognition or meaning until the Act was amended in 1969 and renamed the Citizenship Act. This followed a growing sense of Australian nationalism and the declining importance for Australians of the British Empire. In 1973 the Act was renamed the Australian Citizenship Act. It was not until 1984 that Australian citizens ceased to be British subjects.
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/fact-sheets/fs187.aspx
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That's outrageous Gadget I would be upset about that as well.
Therefore Paul, you could send email to British consulate: EMAIL ukinthephilippines@fco.gov.uk
British Embassy in Manila, Philippines 120 Upper McKinley Road McKinley Hill, Taguig City 1634 Manila Philippines
TELEPHONE (+63) (2) 858 2200
FAX (+63) (2) 858 2216
WEBSITE www.gov.uk/government/world/philippines
Andy_T
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It was the British Empire in those days :-X
Note - the BMDs were not the same though.
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British Subject YES Gadget is of course Spot On :D Yes, lost in the 1980s. :) 1986 and the formalities continued in Australia ... Our Head of State was replaced, ;) yes ... Our Head of State was legislated .... and she is Queen of Australia ... and only this century, one of our Prime Ministers organised for her husband to be knighted.... (2015 I think).
But on a family history note ... The Richard Dawson in that cutting that Andy found for the Manila deaths of George and Hannah Brown in 1850 ... well ... he was a significant industrialist, many employees, so it is interesting that he is mentioned in that newspaper cutting dating several months after their deaths ... sea voyages with mail back to NSW from Manila may have called in at several ports on a long trading voyage ...
https://dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/richard_dawsons_australian_foundry
and
http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/dawson-richard-dicky-14382
and
this suggesting the deaths were at Manilla NSW (it is up near Tamworth)
http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/brown-george-14383
I have had a quick skim at NSW BDM online deaths .... and I cannot find any likely listings at that index, BUT ... 1850 ... it is before the commencement of civil registrations of deaths in NSW, and so IF it were to be listed, it would be from NSW BDM Early Church Records, - Burials ... and these are definitely NOT the complete set of burials for NSW prior to civil registration ....
ADD
http://www.manillamuseum.org.au/
They may have lots of local knowledge regarding cemeteries in their district from mid 1800s...
JM
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The death notice appeared some 4-5 months after the event suggesting strongly that these were overseas deaths.
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this suggesting the deaths were at Manilla NSW (it is up near Tamworth)
http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/brown-george-14383
Added -
DIED.
At Manila, in April last, in the 25th year of
his age, Mr. George Brown, for many years in
the employ of Mr. Richard Dawson, Iron-
founder, of this city.
At the same place, in May, in the 23rd year
of her age, Mrs. Brown, wife of the above, and
eldest daughter of the late Mr. Edward Wood-
hart, of Phillip-street, in this city.
Good find, majm. Not the Philippines at all.
:)
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this suggesting the deaths were at Manilla NSW (it is up near Tamworth)
http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/brown-george-14383
But it doesn't suggest that at all !
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Read the link.
I've added it. It's Manilla, NSW.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manilla,_New_South_Wales
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I have read the original newspaper announcement several times - it doesn't suggest New South Wales. It suggests the Phillippines:
1. It's Manila with one L
2. The deaths were in April and May 1850 but not learned of in Sydney until September
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George and Hannah married in St Andrew's Scots Church , Sydney in 1846.
(NSW Marriages)
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If my knowledge of Philippine history is correct the Philippines was still under Spanish rule in the 1850's and ended in 1898.
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I have read the original newspaper announcement several times - it doesn't suggest New South Wales. It suggests the Phillippines:
1. It's Manila with one L
2. The deaths were in April and May 1850 but not learned of in Sydney until September
Nothing in the newspaper report that mentions the Philippines.
The single 'l' could well be a newspaper mis-spelling.
Add - how far is Manilla, NSW from Sydney?
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Add - how far is Manilla, NSW from Sydney?
6,264 km Philippines.
452.2 km NSW
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The GRO consular deaths index has both George and Anne Brown registered in Manila in 1849-1854 - volume 1 page 703.
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There is a record for the death of a George Brown in Manila
Nat Archives/GRO Overseas Deaths 1849-1854 - Vol 1 Page 703
It might be him.
Gadget
I posted this yesterday at 10.55.
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I posted this yesterday at 10.55
I was pointing out that there is an Anne Brown death there as well
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She was recorded as Hannah in most sources.
No proof for either. The only thing the OP can do is to order the certs through the GRO as I said in an earlier post.
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Agreed.
Possibly she was baptised as Hannah but known as Anne; husband predeceased her, and the informant may not have known she was a Hannah. Just conjecture.
LDS has microfilmed lots of Philippines records including deaths, burials and probate records but you need to be an LDS member to view the images.
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By the profile of the OP he is possibly from Australia. I'm not sure what the LDS centres are like there. Although I do recall, a good while ago, that someone said that there were problems obtaining info. It would probably be as easy to get the GRO certs, depending upon how much they need the info.
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For info - I also found a birth record for a George Brown in Sydney (St Marys,) in 1824 which would give an approx age of 25-6 in 1850. Parents - George and Catherine.
Ref- NSW Births V1824521 125
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Info for OP if they want to order from GRO
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#Overseas
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I found a slightly different newspaper mention which is very much the same as the one Andy_T posted, but mentions a brother of George's. I'm just tossing it out there in case it is of some interest to the OP.
Colonial Times 01 Oct 1850 Pg 2
DIED
At Manila, in April last, in the 25th year of his
age, Mr. George Brown, youngest brother of
Charles William Brown, Compositor, Colonial
Times Office, Hobart Town, for many years in
the employ of Mr Richard Dawson, Ironfounder,
George-street, Sydney.
At the same place, in May, in the 23rd year of her
age, Mrs. Brown, wife of the above, and
eldest daughter of the late Mr. Edward Wood-
ward, of Phillip-street, Sydney.
Majm mentioned that Richard Dawson, was a significant person, so for anyone interested:
https://dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/richard_dawsons_australian_foundry
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this suggesting the deaths were at Manilla NSW (it is up near Tamworth)
http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/brown-george-14383
But it doesn't suggest that at all !
Hi ShaynJ , Please please read all of that post, as the extract you are quoting is part of the longer post, and that live link is part of a live link to the Australian Dictionary of Biography. You will note that I had already checked NSW BDM in case there was a likely Early Church Record to indicate a George or Hannah Brown burial in NSW in 1850, and also provided a live link to a possible check for any cemeteries in Manilla NSW.
In my view, family history can be about (oops spelling error ) eliminating possibles .... You may also notice that I too had commented on the possibility of the deaths being Manila Philippines and I had commented on the time factor between the deaths and the newspaper cutting ... and mentioned trading ships bringing mail via various ports back to NSW.
JM
British Subject YES Gadget is of course Spot On :D Yes, lost in the 1980s. :) 1986 and the formalities continued in Australia ... Our Head of State was replaced, ;) yes ... Our Head of State was legislated .... and she is Queen of Australia ... and only this century, one of our Prime Ministers organised for her husband to be knighted.... (2015 I think).
But on a family history note ... The Richard Dawson in that cutting that Andy found for the Manila deaths of George and Hannah Brown in 1850 ... well ... he was a significant industrialist, many employees, so it is interesting that he is mentioned in that newspaper cutting dating several months after their deaths ... sea voyages with mail back to NSW from Manila may have called in at several ports on a long trading voyage ...
https://dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/richard_dawsons_australian_foundry
and
http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/dawson-richard-dicky-14382
and
this suggesting the deaths were at Manilla NSW (it is up near Tamworth)
http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/brown-george-14383
I have had a quick skim at NSW BDM online deaths .... and I cannot find any likely listings at that index, BUT ... 1850 ... it is before the commencement of civil registrations of deaths in NSW, and so IF it were to be listed, it would be from NSW BDM Early Church Records, - Burials ... and these are definitely NOT the complete set of burials for NSW prior to civil registration ....
ADD
http://www.manillamuseum.org.au/
They may have lots of local knowledge regarding cemeteries in their district from mid 1800s...
JM
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Majm mentioned that Richard Dawson, was a significant person, so for anyone interested:
https://dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/richard_dawsons_australian_foundry
Yes, I and have already posted that live link too.
JM ::)
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So, to summarise:
If they died in Manila, Philippines, the death cert for George is as I gave yesterday and Shaun gave today:
GRO Overseas/Consular Deaths 1849-1854 - Vol 1 Page 703
This would be the same for Ann/Hannah
and can be obtained from the GRO:
Info for OP if they want to order from GRO
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#Overseas
If it was Manilla, NSW, then the record is most likely not available.
Gadget
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Yes.
Also I have a note on a Sydney NSW baptism in 1846 for an Ann/e Jane BROWN, infant daughter of George & Frances. George's occupation is Moulder at the Foundry. I will get my actual copy of the Early Church Record out tomorrow.
I have a wallpaper collection of BROWN from NSW bdm ECRs but mainly Sydney for 1840s.
JM
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Also I have a note on a Sydney NSW baptism in 1846 for an Ann/e Jane BROWN, infant daughter of George & Frances. George's occupation is Moulder at the Foundry. I will get my actual copy of the Early Church Record out tomorrow.
JM
The baptism might fit with their marriage but not sure about Frances.
George and Hannah married in St Andrew's Scots Church , Sydney in 1846.
(NSW Marriages)
Gadget
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If George and Hannah brown died in Manila Philippines (not Manilla, Australia), then I am sure it would have been mentioned in Philippines newspapers.
Therefore does anyone have online access these old Philippines Spanish Language newspapers?
La Esperanza - La Estrella - Diario de Manila
NOTE: No English language or Tagalog language newspapers were in print in 1850 in the Philippines.
I can't find any-websites with access to these Philippines newspapers that were in print in 1850 when George and Hannah Brown died but if any RootsChat member has worldwide access to old newspapers and can find any of the above, then it might be worth searching their names in April, May, June 1850.
Andy_T
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Just noting ship arrivals in Sydney from Manila in the weeks prior to the death announcements:
The Lady Peel arrived Port Philip on 21 August 1850 having departed Manila on 29th May. After discharge and reloading she moved on to Sydney but did not arrive until 7 September, a day after the first announcement. Possibly news travelled more quickly from port to port once arrived in Australia.
Symmetry arrived Sydney on 15 August having left Manila on 12th May.
The voyage time fits the gap between events in the Philippines in April and May, and announcement of the news in early September.
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There maybe some thing here but my Spanish is zero.
Collection 9.11 - Diario de Manila - UST Heritage Collections
digitallibrary.ust.edu.ph/cdm/landingpage/collection/diariodeman
Scroll down to April 1850.
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Also I have a note on a Sydney NSW baptism in 1846 for an Ann/e Jane BROWN, infant daughter of George & Frances. George's occupation is Moulder at the Foundry. I will get my actual copy of the Early Church Record out tomorrow.
JM
The baptism might fit with their marriage but not sure about Frances.
George and Hannah married in St Andrew's Scots Church , Sydney in 1846.
(NSW Marriages)
Gadget
:D :D :D
Ann Jane, daughter of George and Frances BROWN of Cumberland Street, was born 23 August 1846 and on 20 September 1846 baptised at St Philip’s Church of England, Sydney by Rev William Cowper. George’s rank/profession was recorded as ‘Moulder in a Foundry’.
See also
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCP-Q9N
and NSW BDM online index :
Ann J BROWN, parents as George and Frances, with the Early Church Record as Volume 31A, entry at line 275 of 1846. I confirm that Volume 31A is baptisms for Church of England.
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history-research/family-history-research-nsw.aspx
I cannot find any other children for that particular couple (George and Frances BROWN,) I do have instances where my NSW Brown family have ‘Frances’ on official documents, and yet she is usually referred to as Nancy or Nan or Ann or Annie.
I cannot find where our OP’s George and Hannah BROWN have any connection to my own BROWN tree, but if there were a TOP TWO surnames for NSW in the 1840s, BROWN is up there along with SMITH…
JM
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And newspapers ... try this too
https://news.google.com/newspapers
JM
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Andy_T ........ I emailed the address you provided and received a prompt response advising that they hold no records for the1850 period.
Seems like this may be one that remains unsolved.
Thanks for your kind assistance.
Regards,
Paul
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The Library of Congress in the USA appears to have two newspapers from the Phillipines for 1850 but of course they are not online
https://www.loc.gov/newspapers/?all=true&c=150&dates=1850/1859&fa=subject:philippines
One is the "El Eco de Panay"
and
"El Porvenir de Bisayas"
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So, to summarise:
If they died in Manila, Philippines, the death cert for George is as I gave yesterday and Shaun gave today:
GRO Overseas/Consular Deaths 1849-1854 - Vol 1 Page 703
This would be the same for Ann/Hannah
and can be obtained from the GRO:
Info for OP if they want to order from GRO
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#Overseas
Gadget
You could order the certificates to see if they are yours. I'm not sure what the GRO charge for sending overseas. . The charges on the site are listed here:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#OrderingCertificates6
Gadget
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You could order the certificates to see if they are yours. I'm not sure what the GRO charge for sending overseas. . The charges on the site are listed here:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#OrderingCertificates6
GRO include postage in their £11 charge. For overseas addresses, certificates are sent by standard airmail.
Carol