RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: kjmck on Wednesday 27 February 19 23:29 GMT (UK)
-
Evening all,
I am hoping for a little help here.
My 4x Great Grandmother was Elizabeth Fleming nee Ossman (spelling varies), she died 16th March 1877 at 305 High Street, Blackfriars Glasgow, widow of John Fleming, a general Carter. The informant is her daughter, my 3x Great Grandmother, Mary McCormick. Elizabeth's parents are listed as William Ossman (Chelsea Pensioner) & Margaret Liddell.
Searching marriage records for Ossman & Liddell I found a marriage for a Robert Osman & Margaret Liddle on 19th May 1805 at Montrose. It reads - 'Sergt. Robert Osman of the 8th Regt. of Foot & Margaret Liddle of this Parish were proclaimed in Order to Marriage & no objections offered'.
I have been unable to locate a birth for my 4x Great Grandmother, Elizabeth Osman, though she was born roughly 1808. I have found 3 other children - David 1807, Mary 1813, & Jean 1816. I have found from another family tree source that Mary was born at 'Field of Waterloo, Belgium'. CORRECTION - it is on Mary's Death record in 1855 that her birth place is listed as this.
I have been unable to go further back, reliably, with either the Osman or Liddell families. Neither have I been able to find a marriage for John Fleming & Elizabeth Osman, nor any birth registrations for any of their children, though I know they had another daughter called Agnes.
Would also be cool to find out what Robert Osman was doing in the military.
It's all becoming very frustrating, and if anyone can help I would greatly appreciate it.
Thank you,
Keelan
-
"My 4x Great Grandmother was Elizabeth Fleming nee Ossman (spelling varies), she died 16th March 1877 at 305 High Street, Blackfriars Glasgow, widow of John Fleming, a general Carter. The informant is her daughter, my 3x Great Grandmother, Mary McCormick. Elizabeth's parents are listed as William Ossman (Chelsea Pensioner) & Margaret Liddell.
I have been unable to locate a birth for my 4x Great Grandmother, Elizabeth Osman, though she was born roughly 1808".
Short reply as I was getting confused with all the info. jumping from one to another (sorry) :)
Where do census records give for Elizabeth's place of birth?
What is her age on each census & death (for a window) of her birth yr?
Are they consistent?
Annie
-
Hi Annie,
Sorry, I really do need to write more coherently.
1861 -
birth year - c. 1806
Birth place - Montrose, Forfarsh.
1871 -
Birth year - c. 1808
Birth place - Montford, Forfar
Death record -
6th March 1877, age given as 60. Possible birth year as 1816/1817. So her supposed age at death wouldn’t fit with the census info.
I have a record for the Fleming family in 1851, gives John Fleming as the head, Carter as his occupation, info which all fits. The info for his wife who SHOULD be Elizabeth fits too - birth year of about 1807 in Montrose BUT her name is transcribed as Mary. ???
Keelan
-
Sorry to be a pest...
What is Elizabeth's age 1841?
Have you found Elizabeth & John Flemming together & what's his age on those?
When/where were their children born?
Does the info. on their kids marriages tally i.e. parents names & fathers' occ?
Could Mary be the 'real' mother but died when kids were young i.e. thought Elizabeth to be their mother?
Annie
-
"Elizabeth Fleming nee Ossman died 16th March 1877 at 305 High Street, Blackfriars Glasgow, widow of John Fleming, a general Carter. The informant is her daughter, my 3x Great Grandmother, Mary McCormick"
Where/when was Mary born, do you have her baptism?
Annie
-
Not being a pest at all!
So 1841, I only have one possible census return but unsure of it.
John Fleming, b. 1811, Lanarkshire, occupation - carter.
Elizabeth Fleming, b. 1811, Scotland.
NK, b. 1821, Scotland.
And that’s all there is on the census return.
I have not been able to find any baptismal records for the children of John & Elizabeth.
Children’s info from 1851
Nancy Fleming, b. 1833 Glasgow
Mary Fleming, b. 1835 Glasgow
John Fleming, b. 1840 Glasgow
There are no baptisms I can find in Scotland to John Fleming & Elizabeth Osman.
I did find a marriage for an Elizabeth Osman to John Brown in 1828. So I thought maybe she had become a widow, and then searched for children to John Fleming and Elizabeth Brown.... bud also couldn’t find any.
I also assume that ‘nancy’ is Agnes. As there was an Agnes Fleming as a witness at Mary Fleming’s marriage in 1856.
-
Sorry, I realise it must be very confusing and maybe a brick wall
-
"I also assume that ‘nancy’ is Agnes. As there was an Agnes Fleming as a witness at Mary Fleming’s marriage in 1856"
Yes Agnes/Nancy same.
What info. is given re parents on the marriage?
Annie
-
It's a little hard to make out the maiden name of Mary's mother.
-
If the 1851 census I have for the Fleming family is correct then John Fleming died between 1851 and 1856
-
It's a little hard to make out the maiden name of Mary's mother.
Ask Scotland's People for a better image - there is a button to use when you are viewing a certificate that is hard to read.
-
This maybe nothing but there is a death of a Robert Osman in Bo'ness 1830 although there is another Robert Osman in Bo'ness he also had a son David b 1804 Bo'ness Also a death of a David Osman age 1 Bo'ness in 1808 which could be yours
-
It's a little hard to make out the maiden name of Mary's mother.
Ask Scotland's People for a better image - there is a button to use when you are viewing a certificate that is hard to read.
I have messaged ScotlandsPeople for a better image. I can see that Elizabeth's maiden name ends in 'man' but the beginning of it doesn't seem to read Os or Oss.
-
This maybe nothing but there is a death of a Robert Osman in Bo'ness 1830 although there is another Robert Osman in Bo'ness he also had a son David b 1804 Bo'ness Also a death of a David Osman age 1 Bo'ness in 1808 which could be yours
I have found the death for Robert in 1830, he was 61 when he died of 'Sudden Death' on 1st Dec 1830. So he would have been born roughly 1769, though I can't find a birth for an Osman (sp.) around that time anywhere in Scotland. I thought the name Osman would be uncommon enough to make the searches easier.
The parents of the David Osman, born 1804, were Robert Osman & Margaret Tweedale, but I can't locate a marriage for them.
I
-
I think the whole Fleming/Osman/Liddell family research is a dead end
-
"1841, I only have one possible census return but unsure of it.
John Fleming, b. 1811, Lanarkshire, occupation - carter.
Elizabeth Fleming, b. 1811, Scotland.
NK, b. 1821, Scotland"
In my view this doesn't fit as later you have...
"Children’s info from 1851"
"Nancy Fleming, b. 1833 Glasgow
Mary Fleming, b. 1835 Glasgow
John Fleming, b. 1840 Glasgow"
Where are those children in 1841?
Mary, on her marriage in 1856 is aged 22 (b c1834)
The maiden name of her mother looks like Hindman (or similar) not that it helps us for now ::)
What info. is given on Mary's death re parents?
Where does Mary state she was born 1861/71/81 etc. until last census prior to death?
What children (if any) are still at home with Elizabeth 1861?
Have you found marriages/deaths for Agnes/Nancy & John to see what details they have re parents?
Agnes, if she married would be post 1856 as she's using her maiden name as witness to Mary's marriage.
What led you to Ossman (whichever variant) in the 1st place?
Annie
-
I think the whole Fleming/Osman/Liddell family research is a dead end
I think you're giving up too easily.
Genealogy is not easy or straight forward (thankfully) or I'd have been bored very soon!
It's like a jigsaw/crossword where some pieces/words look like they fit but on closer inspection they don't, you go back & forward until you finally work it out.
You need to follow the pattern which sometimes involves a lot of scrutinising if the piece/word fits but not a definite match i.e. you need to try another.
This involves checking names/dates/ages/places/occupations/siblings etc. etc. etc. & it all has to tally although you will always find contradictory info. which needs an autopsy ;D
Enjoy the hunt as a fun game not a chore!
Annie
-
Ah I know it must seem like i'm giving up! I'll never though ;D I came to a brick wall with this roughly 6 years ago, and have since tackled other lines in my family tree, even locating my grandmothers father, with much more success. This is one of those cases where i'll need to focus on this alone in my family tree.
-
I'll answer your other questions as best I can Annie
Where are those children in 1841?
I haven't been able to find either Agnes/Nancy, Mary, & John in 1841. And i've not been able to locate their baptismal records. Maybe those events just weren't officially recorded?
'Mary, on her marriage in 1856 is aged 22 (b c1834)', yes, her husband is listed as 21 on the Marriage record, but he was actually 20 as he was born 16/11/1835.
What info. is given on Mary's death re parents?
This is the info given on Mary's death record, by her son, Daniel McCormack.
Died 22nd April 1895, Age 58, Widow of Daniel McCormack (Packing Box Maker). 518 Rutherglen Road, Glasgow. PARENTS - John Fleming (Carter - Deceased) & Margaret Fleming ms Osmond (Deceased).
Where does Mary state she was born 1861/71/81 etc. until last census prior to death?
1861 - c.1837, Glasgow.
1871 - c.1834, Glasgow.
1881 - c. 1836, Glasgow.
1891 - c. 1836, Glasgow.
Side Note - in 1871, Elisabeth Fleming (Mother in Law) also residing with the McCormack family. Age - 63 (c.1808), Montford, Forfar.
What children (if any) are still at home with Elizabeth 1861?
In 1861, Elizabeth is listed as Mrs Fleming (55), Danie Mccormick (24), Mary Mccormick (24), Mary Walter (27 - Boarder), Mary Mccormick (2)
I haven't been able to find any marriages or deaths for Agnes & John. I have done many searches for them. I cannot find Agnes/Nancy in 1861, so i assumed she either married or died between 1856 and 1861, but haven't been able to find either.
What led you to Ossman (whichever variant) in the 1st place?
Well, my first clue was Mary's death record which gives her mothers name as Margaret Osmond. Though I knew this didn't fit as I had records with her mother's name as Elizabeth. On Mary's marriage record it is Elizabeth *man. On Elizabeth's death record in 1877, Mary gives her mothers maiden name as Ossman. On the marriage record for Elizabeth's parents Robert & Margaret, the name is transcribed as Osman.
Daniel McCormick & Mary Fleming also had an illegitimate daughter, who they named Elizabeth/Elisabeth. She died 26/05/1855 age 13 months at 125 High Street. The informant was Elizabeth Fleming (Grandmother)
Keelan
-
I think we should wait for the marriage cert. rescan.
So far Elizabeth has also been Mary/Margaret i.e. was it Marg rather than Mary?
Did she have a forename & middle name i.e. Elizabeth Margaret/Margaret Elizabeth ???
The surname on the marriage could make all the difference as she herself may have been illegitimate using her father's surname ???
Lots of questions & my reason for asking so much about Mary was the conflicting surnames.
I think it's rather strange the kids are not on the 1841 census with parents...are parents last on the page i.e. are kids on next page?
Annie
Add...Lovely name Keelan! ;)
-
Hi Annie,
Have received the rescanned marriage record, will attach it with this record. I do believe it says Elizabeth Wiseman? What do you think.
Keelan
-
Unfortunately the name Wiseman doesn’t help with the search.
Any suggestions anyone?
-
Hi Keelan
Certainly looks like Wiseman :-\ You have enough already to know this is a likely error (pain though).
See this was a RC marriage. Were the family RC? If so, may explain why you have not been able to find too many details. RC records pre 1855 are even scarcer than the Established Church of Scotland/Presbyterian records from the OPRs.
Just adding a possible for Robert Osman with the Osmond variant. You mentioned that the 1805 marriage entry you have for Robert and Margaret showed his as a sergeant in the 8th foot regiment. See http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8827076
Monica
-
Hi Keelan,
Not wanting to contradict anyone (Monica has too much experience) but the new image is far too hard to read, is it possible you can post a better view of the parents names column please as this is a lot smaller than the original you posted?
I honestly can't see the mothers' ms as Wiseman (yet) :-\
I see from the original image posted (what I think) as a possible 4/5 letters prior to 'man' :-\...
- - - - - man
The initial letter doesn't seem to look like the 'W' in Witness?
The letter preceding '?man' has a long upward stroke which doesn't resemble the 'S' in Deceased or Glasgow?
I think the letter with the long upward stroke may be an 'L' as the 'Ts' are consistent with a definite cross stroke elsewhere?
The initial letter seems the biggest problem to work out which would be a great help for working out the rest if it's not a Wobbleyou? ;D
Annie
-
Now that's interesting, because I instantly read the second mother's name as Wiseman, even before reading the rest of the thread. The letter at the start of the name looks similar to the 'W' of both Witnesses', though it has an extra curl at top left.
And the 's' looks quite like the 's' in 'solemnized'.
For a re-scan, it's still not a very good image.
-
Hi Keelan
Did you see the last reply on your other post?
Hi, all!
I'm a little late to the party, but:
"sergeant robert osman of the 8th regiment of foot & margaret liddle of this
parish were proclaimed in order to marriage"
in Montrose.
Robert Osman is my 4th g-grandfather. Born in Chiseldon, Wiltshire 1766. He appears to have several brothers and sisters and his father (possible James Osman m/ Elizabeth) seems to have family there as well. All the dates look fantastic, but I'm still verifying this info. I just came across it today.
I also have James Fleming Duff (b. ~1850), 7th child of John Duff (b. ~1817) and Jane Osman (b. 1816).
The Osman/Duff family were in Linlithgow and Bo'Ness, West Lothian.
Eileen
Those details would fit with the link I added earlier https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8827076 Sometimes these army papers include wife and children's names. Worth maybe checking it out to see what it says?
The Jane mentioned above would be Elizabeth's sister?
Monica
-
Hi All,
Apologies for the late reply, a broken laptop isn't conducive to getting stuck into some genealogy.
The re-scan was much better quality than the copy of it that I tried to send, and it definitely says Wiseman as the mother's maiden name. Strange though how the name was transcribed wrong.
Hi Keelan
Did you see the last reply on your other post?
Hi, all!
I'm a little late to the party, but:
"sergeant robert osman of the 8th regiment of foot & margaret liddle of this
parish were proclaimed in order to marriage"
in Montrose.
Robert Osman is my 4th g-grandfather. Born in Chiseldon, Wiltshire 1766. He appears to have several brothers and sisters and his father (possible James Osman m/ Elizabeth) seems to have family there as well. All the dates look fantastic, but I'm still verifying this info. I just came across it today.
I also have James Fleming Duff (b. ~1850), 7th child of John Duff (b. ~1817) and Jane Osman (b. 1816).
The Osman/Duff family were in Linlithgow and Bo'Ness, West Lothian.
Eileen
Those details would fit with the link I added earlier https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8827076 Sometimes these army papers include wife and children's names. Worth maybe checking it out to see what it says?
The Jane mentioned above would be Elizabeth's sister?
Monica
I've had a look at the image on FindMyPast, and it unfortunately doesn't give anything away regarding family, as it is an document of Discharge from the military. It says he is roughly 49 years of age and was discharged due to being 'worn out'.
I have sent a message to Eileen hoping she has chance to respond.
Keelan
-
I'm trying to piece together a timeline for both Elizabeth and her father Robert.
ELIZABETH
1808 - give/take a couple years. BIRTH at either Montford or Montrose. No Baptismal record found.
1828 - 18/03/1828 at Bo'ness. 'John Brown Mariner & Elizabeth Osman in this Parish Enrolled their
names to be proclaimed for Marriage'. Possible marriage.
1833 - Rough birth year of daughter Agnes Fleming, Glasgow.
1835 - Rough birth year of daughter Mary Fleming, Glasgow.
1840 - Rough birth year of son John Fleming, Glasgow.
1851 - Census. Transcribed as Mary. 45 Shuttle Street, Glasgow. 44yo.
1856 - Elizabeth Wiseman on daughter Mary's marriage record (widow).
1861 - Census. 'Mrs Fleming'. 5 Barrels Lane, Wash Woman. 55yo. Head.
1871 - Census. Elisabeth Fleming. 26 Duke St, Washer. Mo-in-Law. 63yo.
1877 - 16/03/1877. DEATH, 305 High Street, Glas. Wid. of John Fleming (General Carter).
So still no marriage record for Elizabeth & John Fleming. If it is Elizabeth who married John Brown in 1828, maybe John Brown died and Elizabeth remarried John Fleming. Maybe Elizabeth was guilty of bigamy and married John Fleming under a different name? According to the death record for Elizabeth's sister Mary in 1855, Mary was born c.1813 'on the field of Waterloo', so perhaps Elizabeth was too?
-
ROBERT OSMAN
1766 - 15/06/1766, Baptism, Chiseldon, Wiltshire, England. Son of James Osman & Betty
1786 - 28/02/1786, Enlisted in the 8th Reg't of Foot.
1805 - 19/05/1805. Marriage to Margaret Liddle @ Montrose, Forfar, Scotland.
1807 - 17/06/1807, Baptism of son David Osman, @ Bo'ness
1808 - Possible year of birth for daughter, Elizabeth Osman.
1808 - 23/12/1808, death of son David @ Bo'ness.
1809 - 06/12/1809, left 8th Reg't of Foot.
1809 - 07/12/1809, Enlisted in the 3rd Royal Vet's Batt'n.
1813 - Possible year of birth for daughter, Mary Osman (@ Waterloo?)
1815 - Discharged from military aged 49.
1816 - 01/12/1816. Baptism of daughter, Jane Osman @ Bo'ness.
1830 - 01/12/1830. Possible death @ Bo'ness. Cause - Sudden Death. Age - 61.
I wonder why Robert would have ended up marrying in Scotland?
Possible birth record match for Margaret Liddle (WIFE). Bapt. 20/11/1775 @ Bo'ness, daughter of David Liddell & Helen Tennant.
-
ROBERT OSMAN
1766 - 15/06/1766, Baptism, Chiseldon, Wiltshire, England. Son of James Osman & Betty
1786 - 28/02/1786, Enlisted in the 8th Reg't of Foot.
1805 - 19/05/1805. Marriage to Margaret Liddle @ Montrose, Forfar, Scotland.
1807 - 17/06/1807, Baptism of son David Osman, @ Bo'ness
1808 - Possible year of birth for daughter, Elizabeth Osman.
1808 - 23/12/1808, death of son David @ Bo'ness.
1809 - 06/12/1809, left 8th Reg't of Foot.
1809 - 07/12/1809, Enlisted in the 3rd Royal Vet's Batt'n.
1813 - Possible year of birth for daughter, Mary Osman (@ Waterloo?)
1815 - Discharged from military aged 49.
1816 - 01/12/1816. Baptism of daughter, Jane Osman @ Bo'ness.
1830 - 01/12/1830. Possible death @ Bo'ness. Cause - Sudden Death. Age - 61.
I wonder why Robert would have ended up marrying in Scotland?
Possible birth record match for Margaret Liddle (WIFE). Bapt. 20/11/1775 @ Bo'ness, daughter of David Liddell & Helen Tennant.
More than likely, Robert was stationed in Montrose with his Regiment. Montrose is, and has been for hundreds of years, a port town. So the military would've utilised this.
Between the time of him enlisting and him marrying Margaret Liddle in Montrose, the Regiment were involved in the French Revolutionary Wars.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8th_(The_King's)_Regiment_of_Foot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8th_(The_King's)_Regiment_of_Foot)
In 1793, revolutionary France declared war on Great Britain. The King's became assigned to an expeditionary force sent to the Netherlands under the command of Prince Frederick, Duke of York.[63] In 1794, the regiment attempted to lift the French Siege of Nijmegen. The allies planned a nocturnal attack, with the march conducted without audible commotion. The force leapt into the French earthworks, with hand-to-hand fighting ensuing. Despite the success, the town of Nijmegen was soon evacuated and the British withdrew from the Netherlands in 1795.[64]
In 1799, the King's became resident on Menorca, which had been captured from Spain the previous year.[65] In 1801, the regiment landed at Abukir Bay, Egypt, with an expedition sent under the command of General Ralph Abercromby to counter a French invasion.[66] The King's participated in the capture of Rosetta, 65 miles west of Alexandria,[67] and a fort located in Romani.[68] The British completed the occupation of Egypt by September.[68]
-
ROBERT OSMAN
1766 - 15/06/1766, Baptism, Chiseldon, Wiltshire, England. Son of James Osman & Betty
1786 - 28/02/1786, Enlisted in the 8th Reg't of Foot.
1805 - 19/05/1805. Marriage to Margaret Liddle @ Montrose, Forfar, Scotland.
1807 - 17/06/1807, Baptism of son David Osman, @ Bo'ness
1808 - Possible year of birth for daughter, Elizabeth Osman.
1808 - 23/12/1808, death of son David @ Bo'ness.
1809 - 06/12/1809, left 8th Reg't of Foot.
1809 - 07/12/1809, Enlisted in the 3rd Royal Vet's Batt'n.
1813 - Possible year of birth for daughter, Mary Osman (@ Waterloo?)
1815 - Discharged from military aged 49.
1816 - 01/12/1816. Baptism of daughter, Jane Osman @ Bo'ness.
1830 - 01/12/1830. Possible death @ Bo'ness. Cause - Sudden Death. Age - 61.
I wonder why Robert would have ended up marrying in Scotland?
Possible birth record match for Margaret Liddle (WIFE). Bapt. 20/11/1775 @ Bo'ness, daughter of David Liddell & Helen Tennant.
Hi there!
Unfortunately I cannot respond to the message you sent me on here me a week ago. Probably because I'm not a paying member ;)
Robert is, indeed, our common ancestor. He is my ggg?-grandfather. All my data is on my external drive, which I need to hook up, so I'm not quite sure how many greats past he is.
Anyhow, I definitely would like to chat!
Did you get anywhere with his daughter, Mary, who claims she was born on the Field of Waterloo? From what I've found, thus far, Robert wasn't even at Waterloo, but I didn't have the transfer to the 3rd Royal Vets. Where did you find that?
All that said, you can email me at madmarestudio @gmail.com (remove the space before the @).
I would love to talk to you about this.
Eileen
-
ROBERT OSMAN
. . .
1766 - 15/06/1766, Baptism, Chiseldon, Wiltshire, England. Son of James Osman & Betty
1786 - 28/02/1786, Enlisted in the 8th Reg't of Foot.
1805 - 19/05/1805. Marriage to Margaret Liddle @ Montrose, Forfar, Scotland.
. . .
Robert may have been married previous to Margaret Liddle. Check out Margaret Tweedale of Linlithgowshire. There is an OPR for son born (I need to hook up that drive!!). He was either born in 1804 or passed in 1804. I think Tweedale may have died in childbirth and David soon followed.
Argh! I can't remember. I'll post once I get the info up.
Eileen