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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: claire88 on Tuesday 26 February 19 11:25 GMT (UK)
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Hi all ,
My Father Kenneth John Patrick Lewis has very recently passed away and I am looking into his family as I never knew of any of his family .
My Father was born on 27.02.1940 to a margarot Lewis and an Alfred Lewis.
I am looking into the Alfred Lewis side as I know that he left my Father when he was a child .
All I know is that my Father was born in Romford and grew up in Eltham London .
His mother worked for the woolwich & Arsenal ammunition while my Father was a child . But I have no information about his Father Alfred . I know Margarot married Alfred at some point , but I don’t know where or when .
If anyone could help or have these people in their trees I would be enternally grateful for any information as I feel I need to know my past .
Thanks
Claire
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The only Kenneth J P Lewis is reg'd
1940 Romford
mother's maiden name Towler
But although there is a Lewis marriage Romford she is not Margarot, did she have any other names
Alfred E Lewis to Jessie L Towler
1942 Romford
ref 4a 1744
Louisa Maud
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She was also known as Jessie - and this is where I am confused .
My Father also told me people called her Jessie or Marrie.
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That must be her marriage I assume
There is a Jessie L Towler born 1919 Greenwich, mother's maiden name Crawley
Have you any other information about Alfred E Lewis, date of birth perhaps , unfortunately Alfred E Lewis there are quite a few
If you have your father's birth cert what was his father's occupation at 1940 ish
Louisa Maud
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Have you already had replies to some of these questions?
Louisa MaUD
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I had previously in relation to Jesse or margarot . However I could not piece it together .
I have ordered my Fathers birth certificate.
But I was more interested in his Father Alfred as I had no information about him .
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Perhaps wait till you receive father's certificate to see what you can gain from that, his occupation will be a help, nearest date to check 1939 if he wasn't in the military
Louisa Maud
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Hi , I have finally got a copy of my dad’s birth certificate. He was born 27/02/1940. His mother was Jessie Louisa Lewis (formally towler) . His father was Alfred Edward Lewis who was a milk roundsman.
What confuses me is that my dad’s birth wasn’t registered till 1st April . I also have that he was born in Becontree Road , Dagenham .
As I said before I’m so new to this - any help going forward would be great .
I also know my dad and his mother Jessie moved to Australia so any help with this would be great too.
Claire
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Do you have Jessie and Alfred’s 1942 marriage certificate yet?
To get his father’s name.
IF. His father’s name is Walter. Then I see a potential baptism in December 1903, (right year according to the 1939 details from which I am not allowed to post)
Alfred Edward Baptised 9 Dec 1903 at St Mary’s Westminster parents Walter and Caroline, he’s a Milkman, living at 126 Cornwell Road
BUT YOU MUST NOT RELY ON THIS UNTIL YOU HAVE PROOF OF HIS FATHERS NAME.
Am sending you a pm
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What confuses me is that my dad’s birth wasn’t registered till 1st April . I also have that he was born in Becontree Road , Dagenham .
Claire
That’s only 4 or 5 weeks between birth and registration. That’s nothing.
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I’ve found a school record for Alfred Edward the son of Walter and birth date is right.
I still think you should buy the marriage certificate though. Just to be 100% sure.
So..there is quite a lot of information available. Walter and Caroline had a large family.
I don’t want to spoil your fun so won’t post, but ask if you get stuck.
Here they are in 1911 to get you started
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW5S-QVN
NB Walter has been transcribed as Walter G, but he signs at bottom as Walter James
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Oh wow ! Thank you so much ! This is amazing . How do I access the school report please ? This is all so new to me .
Claire
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The school register is on Ancestry
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1938/31949_214199-00163?pid=8948205&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid%3D1938%26h%3D8948205%26indiv%3Dtry%26o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D2352&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true
I made a separate enquiry here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=811108.msg6711875#msg6711875
Regarding the annotation on it.
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I also know my dad and his mother Jessie moved to Australia so any help with this would be great too.
Claire
Between marriage in 1965 and 1968 when I can see them on the electoral rolls for Burke
Modified as. I think I’ve been following the wrong people here.
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I was thinking... :)
If you have Jessie’s death certificate, you could apply to FindMyPast to have the redacted entry in 1939 opened.
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I have been led to believe that Jessie moved to Australia after her and Alfred’s marriage ended . She moved there with a Charles Bolton and this is where her and Charles passed away . Then prompting my Father to return to the uk .
Claire
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That 1965 marriage is your father though?
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No it isn’t . My father married in the 1970’s to a Cheryl (don’t know surname ) and then in the 80’s to maiden name flatman .
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What confuses me is that my dad’s birth wasn’t registered till 1st April . I also have that he was born in Becontree Road , Dagenham .
That’s only 4 or 5 weeks between birth and registration. That’s nothing.
Hi Claire :)
For future reference, births have to be registered within 42 days (6 weeks) and there's a fine to pay for late registration. Your Dad's registration was well within that time.
Carol
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There are a number of trees with Alfred Lewis in them, and THREE possible deaths among them.
(Hence importance to check each step yourself)
The 1962 one in Woolwich of a 58 yr old, seems the most likely. they say it was 27th June 1962.
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
added, that death is on Deceased online. Unfortunately you have to pay to see the entry
https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch?DetsView=Summary&src=ext&fileid=3252748
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For the benefit of others reading this thread.
Claire has confirmed that her father's birth certificate shows his address to be the same as the one in the 1939 register.
see reply #7
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I have paid for the death details and that is the correct Alfred . Jessie had arranged it all.
This goes against all that I was ever told by my dad as I believed he was in Australia at that time and Alfred and Jessie were not together . I’m highly confused . I think I need to find jessie’s Death and where and who registered her ?
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a tree has Jessie remarrying in Woolwich to Michael McSHARRY in 1963
that's this registration - December qtr
LEWIS JESSIE _. MCSHARRY WOOLWICH 5D 1725
I had a look at the image, and I think the initial they couldn't read is an L.
then the death is also on deceased online - 1996 as per that other tree. I don't know if you will learn anything paying the money
https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch?DetsView=Summary&src=ext&fileid=13595358
However you are definitely going to have to buy some marriage certificates.
the Marriage of Alfred and Jessie
and then the Marriage of Jessie and Michael to see if the two Jessie's ARE the same person. (which does seem likely)
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That’s shows a Jessie Louise ? So may not be the same person. I was always led to believe she passed away in Australia while with a man called Charles Bolton , and my father there too
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just to make life interesting there is a Woolwich birth of a girl LEWIS with TOWLER mother in 1951
I can't put the details here as she could still be living. will pm.
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That’s shows a Jessie Louise ? So may not be the same person. I was always led to believe she passed away in Australia while with a man called Charles Bolton , and my father there too
I can't see a likely death in Australia. Perhaps one of the Australian rootschatters may pick this up?
I don't think you should be concerned about Louise/Louisa these are commonly mixed. My own mother in law was free with either.
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I'm wondering about the parents of Jessie Louisa.
the only marriage between a TOWLER and CRAWLEY that looks possible is
Marriages Mar 1913 (>99%)
Crawley Emma M Towler W.Ham 4a 221
Towler Thomas J Crawley W.Ham 4a 221
I wonder if Thomas has a WW1 record (many of these were lost in a fire so it's hit or miss whether you can find one)
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I was told Jessie mother was margarat . She was apparently a bit of a character - and was with lots of men ! My father remembered being taken out be her on coach trips so she could go out with different men!
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Goodness!
she might be Emma Margaret
I am thinking she may have been widowed by 1939
Added- well that Emma is Emma Martha.
I'm puzzled by the Margaret.
I'm disobeying my own advice. I should be waiting until you have some more certificates.
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Found the marriage.
Henry John TOWLER to Margaret Mary CROWLEY 1913, West Ham both age 19
then
Henry dies Greenwich Dec 1922 (address in hospital register is same as address at baptism of John Edward TOWLER in 1917)
All on Ancestry
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OK.
1. we have Kenneth JP saying his mother died in Australia along with Charles BARTON
i see no evidence for travel nor for deaths in Geelong can any other Rootschatters?
2. Alfred Edward died Woolwich 1962, burial gives Jessie L LEWIS. At the same address. So alive and not dead in Australia.
3. Electoral rolls so far 1961 45 Briset Rd Woolwich. is this the address on the burial information?
1945 7A Plumstead High Street Woolwich
1947 7A Plumstead High Street, Woolwich Alfred E, Jessie L and June F Lewis
1948, 84 St Mary Street Woolwich. Alfred E, Jessie L and June F. Lewis. Who was June?*
1950 ditto with June and also Herbert and Elsie Steggall.
1952 it’s just Alfred and Jessie at 45 Briset Road
1953 ditto
1957 ditto
1958 ditto
1961 Ditto with Kenneth J. (Just found this one)
1962 Jessie Briset Road and Kenneth J
1963 Jessie, Briset Road. And Kenneth J
1964 Jessie Briset Road, Kenneth J
I would suggest your father was probably at his father’s funeral. I wonder if there is a newspaper notice for Alfreds death . Email to Woolwich public library??
4. Since we are now to 1964 I am wondering if that second marriage others have for Jessie in 1962 is correct.
* that Lewis tree on Ancestry which has a lot of evidence attached does not have a June F Lewis in it
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Wow this is all going against what I was ever told ! It was a Charles Bolton my dad said basically bought him up and his dad Alfred had nothing to do with him at all .
My father told me that his mum Jessie worked in the arsenal &Woolwich arms factory . And he was taken to Australia in the 1940’s -1950’s by Jessie and Charles Bolton . Where they both passed away - I am guessing in the 60’s , and then my dad told me he returned to the uk shortly after ?
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The address on the cremation ????? Please!
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I’m still very very suspicious about that 1965 marriage of a Kenneth J P Lewis to Barbara Nicholas.
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I’m the address on the cremation is briset road . So same as what you have .
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I think you should try for a newspaper death notice for Alfred.
Added. And I think the one true thing is probably that Jessie worked in the Arms factory.
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I’m still very very suspicious about that 1965 marriage of a Kenneth J P Lewis to Barbara Nicholas.
And I think there is a son born later that year. No names as prob still alive.
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I have just ordered the marriage certificate. So we will see . I am in utter shock as what I had been told does not add up !
My dad told me he had another child - a boy called Anthony in the 60’s . But I was told this was in Australia to a completely different mother !
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If you Wikipedia that singer you told me was supposed to be the mother of that other child, there is no mention of Australia ::)
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I guess I need to look into that marriage . Can you see the birth of the child ? I was told the birth was 30th June
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I’ve sent the link via PM as likely still living
Of course that is just a birth in the right area with the right combination of surnames, it could be entirely a different child.
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I have just ordered the marriage certificate. So we will see . I am in utter shock as what I had been told does not add up !
My dad told me he had another child - a boy called Anthony in the 60’s . But I was told this was in Australia to a completely different mother !
Which marriage cert?
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The marriage certificate for Kenneth j p Lewis and Barbara Nicholas
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Looking at trees on ancestry it looks like Herbert is Alfred’s brother .
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Below link shows Jessie Mcsharry and Michael Mcsharry residing at 45 briset road - so same address as previous . So the married is correct . However my father Kenneth is not there ! Where is he ?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1795/40020_605905_1474-00051?pid=280639518&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1795%26h%3D280639518%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DdRV127%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dRV127&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
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Perfect!
So that means she didn’t die until 1996!
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Meanwhile, while we wait, and wait and wait, for those marriages, it’s worse than Christmas.
Margaret Mary Crawley Or Crowley who married Henry John TOWLER
Her dob according to workhouse admissions is 26 dec 1890.
Looking in the 1939 .
I can’t see her or the other two children John Edward b 7 Aug 1917 according to baptism, and Florence b 1921
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It’s so sad! I had a grandmother I never knew about who I could of had a relation with ! There must be a reason why my dad said she died in Australia!
No to see if they had any children - do I have aunts and uncles ?!
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Possible remarriage?
Marriages Mar 1923 (>99%)
Towler Margaret M Blay Greenwich 1d 1265
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It’s so sad! I had a grandmother I never knew about who I could of had a relation with ! There must be a reason why my dad said she died in Australia!
No to see if they had any children - do I have aunts and uncles ?!
There is that 1951 birth that might be a aunt..... I pm’d you earlier.
I am so hoping there is a newspaper mention of Alfreds death, and that it mentions everyone’s names.
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Half brother of Jessie??
Births Mar 1924 (>99%)
Blay Patrick Crawley Greenwich 1d 158
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Looking in the 1939 .
I can’t see her or the other two children John Edward b 7 Aug 1917 according to baptism, and Florence b 1921
Found Margaret and Florence
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Possible death for Margaret?
Date of birth third one I have seen.
Baptism has 26 Dec 1890, later 26 Dec 1892. And this death 31 Jan 1892
Deaths Sep 1971 (>99%)
BLAY Margaret 31Ja1892 Greenwich 5b 915
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Ok still waiting for the marriage cert to see if that marriage to b Nicholas is my dad.
However the it was raised that a June f Lewis , Herbert steggles & Elsie was also living with them .
I have found an entry showing a June Lewis and a Kenneth Lewis leaving for Australia ...
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When?
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https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5378/32704_334707-00370?pid=3214915&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=EcS10&_phstart=successSource
This goes against the electrol role tho ....
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I think that is a different family
Parents Arthur and Ellen
Children Michael, Kenneth, June and David.
Also see their address in Australia. U.K.M.O.S.S. (A)
I don’t know what it stands for, but this at National Archives suggests rather more high powered ....
And they are travelling in 1st class.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C488046
I think W.R.E. (in the address) stands for Weapons Reasarch Establishment
http://guides.naa.gov.au/records-about-south-australia/chapter15/15.4.aspx
I can’t see who June could be. To be in the 1946 electoral roll she has to have been at least 21 then.
So b about 1925.
Daughter of Alfred by first wife? Can’t see birth yet.
Can’t see a marriage of a June anyone to anyone Lewis that seems possible.
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Same family, different trip.
Dates of birth for everyone given.
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/2997/41039_b001859-00288?pid=143548349&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?ti%3D0%26indiv%3Dtry%26db%3Dukoutwardpassengerlists%26h%3D143548349&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true
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https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8782&h=40454326&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dRV686&_phstart=successSource
Looks like a child from Alfred’s first wife - so my dad’s sister
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Assuming she disappears from the roll with them because she got married there is this interesting marriage combo
Marriages Sep 1951 (>99%)
HARRAP Michael A LEWIS Stoke N'ton 5d 1674
HARRAP William G LEWIS Stoke N'ton 5d 1674
LEWIS Doreen E HARRAP Stoke N'ton 5d 1674
LEWIS June F HARRAP Stoke N'ton 5d 1674
Modified to add
From 1964 electoral roll, seems June married William
But, is this June Harraps death? , age is out by 5 years.
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=60571&h=29757&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=iDj8&_phstart=successSource
Perhaps this June F
Births Dec 1930 (>99%)
Lewis June F Middleweek Lambeth 1d 382
So wild goose chase there.
Back to the drawing board
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Trying again, this marriage??
Marriages Dec 1955 (>99%)
LEWIS June F ROWLEY Surrey N. 5g 674
ROWLEY Peter R L LEWIS Surrey N. 5g 674
Modified to add, this Peter Rowley b 1924 and probably previously married to Winifred Townsend.
Cannot see June or Peter Rowley after 1955. Emigrated??
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June appears on the electrol role in 1947 - so her date of birth must be 1926 or before
Update - 1926 June was born in camberwell where Alfred's family lived
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8782/ons_b19263az-0779?pid=40454326&treeid=160159068&personid=382095405583&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=jZH5&_phstart=successSource
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Aargh
Found another June F Lewis b 1926
June F Lewis
England and Wales Birth Registration Index
Name June F Lewis
Event Type Birth Registration
Registration Quarter Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration Year 1926
Registration District Kingston
County Surrey
Event Place Kingston, Surrey, England
Mother's Maiden Name Lewis
Volume 2A
Page 784
Affiliate Line Number 5
She could be the one married to Rowley!
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Aargh
Found another June F Lewis b 1926
June F Lewis
England and Wales Birth Registration Index
Name June F Lewis
Event Type Birth Registration
Registration Quarter Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration Year 1926
Registration District Kingston
County Surrey
Event Place Kingston, Surrey, England
Mother's Maiden Name Lewis
Volume 2A
Page 784
Affiliate Line Number 5
She could be the one married to Rowley!
Mother’s maiden name is Stephens(Alfred’s first wife ) as the link above - I’m searching for a marriage but can’t seem to find one
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I’m presuming the F stands for Florence as Alfreds first wife was Florence Beatrice Stephens.
While on her children there is the 1931 daughter too. She doesn’t turn up in the later electoral rolls so did she die young?
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Where have you found the details of another child please ?
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Where have you found the details of another child please ?
Pm’ing As poss alive
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https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1795/40020_215137-00117?pid=130762416&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1795%26h%3D130762416%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DdRV780%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dRV780&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
So we have found Irene Lewis definitely marrying a Dennis w green and June Lewis living with them .
( I never knew I had any aunts!)
Irene & June are both from Alfred’s first marriage
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Ok I’m going to throw another spanner in the works . My dad always told me his mum went by the name of Marie and his step dad was Charles Bolton . Also that the surname Phillips came into it. We have found a Marie (new Phillips ) and a Charles Bolton living round the corner where my dad grew up. (Confirmed in earlier posts ) .
Did Jessie and Alfred let Marie and Charles foster my dad as they couldn’t cope ?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1795/40020_605905_1617-00055?pid=283740145&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=IkM6&_phstart=successSource
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8753/ons_m19484az-0120?pid=53548857&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=VKR8&_phstart=successSource
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This is getting very very complicated!
SHE didn’t die in Australia either.
Is it worth looking at her cremation?
https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch?DetsView=Summary&src=ext&fileid=2712426
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This is getting very very complicated!
And I’ve found a death for them both in Eltham - and buried in same cemetery as Alfred !
So I know that my dad speaking about a Marie and Charles Bolton is true . He always told me Charles Bolton was his step dad. And that his mum was known as Marie and later said her name was Jessie .
Complete mystery ... but all these people lived a road away from each other and passed away and buried in the same cemetery ........ the plot thickens !
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This is getting very very complicated!
SHE didn’t die in Australia either.
Is it worth looking at her cremation?
https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch?DetsView=Summary&src=ext&fileid=2712426
I have looked at marie’s and Charles records . Both died in the same house as they lived in when my dad was around that area . They never moved .
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What about looking at the FOWLER On that electoral register.
He was Marie’s son by first husband. B 1939
Was Kenneth pally with him? In that, always at each other houses way.
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Right so I have found the first husband death record- and a son called William who registered the death
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I think it’s clear now my dad never went to Australia.
So we are back on the trail of Irene and June (my dad’s -ken- half sisters )
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And there’s that Fowler who is with them in the 1962 reg that’s the one I thought would be most likely a mate
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I think it’s clear now my dad never went to Australia.
So we are back on the trail of Irene and June (my dad’s -ken- half sisters )
And the 1951 girl poss full sister
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I am Fabrizia Lewis. My father was Kenneth John Patrick Lewis..my grandfather is Alfred Lewis and my grandmother was Terrie. I have all birth and marriage certificates. My father was born Feb 27 1940...he died Oct 16 2014. He was exceptionally intelligent and and lived in south Africa..
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Welcome to Rootschat, Fabs!
The previous posters on this thread will be notified that you've replied, and should be along soon to respond.
Just as a quick word, there is a 'Private Message' facility, but in order to use it you have to post three times. You can do this by just replying 'hello' or something to this message.
Then you can send a private message to the Original Poster of this thread, claire88 by clicking on the image of a letter in the circle under her name
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Welcome Fabs,
As you might imagine this puzzle started to involve living people and wild theories, the main one of which turned out to be true, so Claire and I went off line to continue the search.
I’ve sent her an email in case she doesn’t see the notification.
This has been a fascinating story which is still incomplete. I do hope information you have might help.
Much as I want to sit down and go over all of this again right this minute I’ve got to go to work now, I’ll be frustrated all day!
What I can ask now is, do you know WHEN your father went to South Africa?
Do you know which schools he went to?
Jo
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Apparently You’re already in touch with Claire.
What a story it is.