RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => England => Hampshire & IOW Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Briannicus on Wednesday 13 February 19 09:50 GMT (UK)
-
Dear All,
I wonder if anyone has information on the below Thomas KING. He is not, I believe, the well documented Thomas King, son of Thomas Reuben King, as they both appear separately in the 1891, 1901 and 1911 censuses. I have included the other information in case it sparks a memory. As you will see there are futher puzzles I should like to solve.
Thank you for anything.
Brian
Thomas KING 2 c.y.b. 1859, Portsmouth, is also found in the 1891 Census, but he is living in Oxford Buildings, working as a labourer, with his ‘wife’, Elizabeth NOTTING), c.y.b. 1862, Weymouth, Dorset, and their children -
(1) Jane c.y.b. 1879.
(2) Florence c.y.b. 1890
They then move to Providence Place in 1901 when Thomas and Elizabeth are 43 and 44, and are at Jarvis Pl in 1911 when their ages seems to have suddenly increased by 10 years to 65 and 64
They, or some mix had -
(1) Jane NEWTON / KING / NOTTING c.y.b. 1879 I cannot find her birth under King, Newton or Notting.
(2) Florence (03/04 Apr1890 – 07 May 1975). Her mother’s maiden name was NOTTING on Civil Register which agrees with her birth certificate. Florence then had, with an unknown father -
a) Lily Florence / Gloria b. (18 Sep 1906 – Jan 1991)
She then married George / Harry Frank ROGERS under the name Florence
NEWTON in Mar qtr. 1908 Portsmouth District, Vol 2B p.711
(3) William b. 03 Jul 1892, bapt 27 Jul 1892, Portsea, son of Thomas and
Elizabeth. Died 1975, Portsmouth
Thomas, Elizabeth and family were living in Providence Place, Portsmouth (Charles Dickens Ward) in 1901 Census.
-
Slow start...but I imagine this is Jane's birth:
GRO Births:
NOTTING, JANE ELIZABETH no mmn
1879 S Quarter in PORTSEA ISLAND Volume 02B Page 425
Elizabeth marries William Joseph NEWTON Oct 21,1879. He's a stoker age 27 residence H M S St Vincent.
I'm not seeing another marriage for her!
Maureen
-
Thank you, Maureen. I don't understand how, after 20 years of compulsory GRO registration we can't find Thomas's birth or census records for '61, '71' '81. Or are we looking in the wrong place or for the wrong name or...
Brian
-
Hello
1871 census 23 Green Row Portsea
Thomas R King 40 Rigger H MDY Portsea
Mary A 38
Thomas 13 Scholar
Mary A 11 "
William H 9 "
1861 census 25 Green Row
Thomas King 30 rigger dockyard Landport
Mary A 28 Milton
Thomas 3 Landport
Mary A 1 Landport
Christening at St Mary Portsea
Thomas birth 14 Jan 1858 bapt 2 10 1859 s of Thomas Reuban and Mary King.
In 1881 he was perhaps on HMS Vincent
Thomas H King 24 single able seaman Hayling Island
Thomas Reuban King married Mary Ann Spencer at St Mary's 10.4.1857
Son Thomas King is registered Birth Mar 1858 Portsea 2b 411 mother's maiden name Spencer.
That helps with one problem.
ps mom and dad 1881 29 Belgrave st Landport
Thomas R King 51 rigger at RN Dockyard Landport
Mary Ann 48 Milton
Mary Ann 21 staymaker Landport
William H 19 railway carman Landport
Ciderdrinker
-
I don't want to appear ungrateful as none of us on this site has to do the things we do, but I actually have almost all of the above - I attach my research below - but have ruled them out, as I said in my starter message, due theim being well documented from the beginning.
The Thomas King I am researching was born at a similar date and suddenly pops up from 1891 in a confusing picture of illegitimacy, false marriage claims and erroneous record keeping, is not, I believe the Thomas son of Thomas Reuben as there are two Thomas Kings from 1891 on.
Thomas Reuben KING rigger in dockyard in 1861 (bapt. 16 May 1830, Portsea St Mary, Hampshire - Mar qtr. 1907, aged 77, Portsmouth), son of Thomas KING, railway porter, formerly a labourer of Halfway House, and Ann UNKNOWN. Married 10.4.1857 in St Marys Parish, Portsea to Mary Ann SPENCER (1833 – 1913) Milton (Portsea), Hampshire, daughter of William SPENCER, railway porter. Wits: Reuben BEATES, Eliza SIMS
Children –
(1) Thomas b. 14 Jan 1858,bapt 02 Oct 1859, son of Thomas Reuben and Mary Ann
(2) Mary Ann, (c.y.b. 1860 - ?), corset maker m. John Frank TRILL (1859 – Jun qtr.
1902), leading stoker, son of James TRILL, on 28 Sep 1882, Portsea and had –
a) Victoria Maud TRILL (Sep qtr. 1887, Portsea – 1951)
b) Ernest John TRILL(Sep qtr. 1888 – Jun qtr. 1891)
c) Ernest John TRILL (Mar qtr. 1890 – 1916, Flanders). Without buying the certificates we have
no way of knowing if they are brothers. The birth datesconfuse the issue.
d) Leonard Reuben TRILL 28 Sep 1894
e) Harry TRILL (Dec qtr. 1896 – 1966)
(3) William Henry 1862. Brewer’s Drayman in 1891, living with parents, his sister and her two children. J F TRILL is not with them
Thank you very much for all your efforts nonetheless.
Brian
-
Yes
Your right I misread your post .
I'm sorry for all that.
That's what happens when I'm in the Library and someone next to me is doing a running commentary on their job search.
I'm sorry I'll have another go
Ciderdrinker
-
Just a though have you looked at Thomas King born 1846/7 son of Thomas King and Caroline
In the army 1865-1887 sister Mrs Maria Davies/Davis
It would explain why he's not on the censuses
Ciderdrinker
-
I must be really blind because I don't see 2 Thomas KINGs born Portsea/Portsmouth ~1858 on the 1891,1901 and 1911 census! ???
Maureen
-
Firstly, I don't know where anyone on here looks up census information but think I was losing the plot (not for the first time Haha)
I have just looked looked up Thomas King born 1858 + - 2 yrs, Portsea, hampshire on Findmypast and the results have come up just as I remembered. There are two (2) Thomas Kings. The one I can't locate is a labourer b. 1859, Portsea and living in Oxford Buildings, with wife Elizabeth born Dorset (this important for identifying them) and children Florence and Jane.
The other Thomas is, I'm fairly sure, Thomas who is the son of Thomas Reuben who is b. 1858, a fireman on HMS Discovery with a wife, also Elizabeth, born Kent (this important for identifying them), and three girls: Edith, Rose W and Ethel. They are in Caversham Rd.
-
Firstly, I don't know where anyone on here looks up census information but think I was losing the plot (not for the first time Haha)
I have just looked looked up Thomas King born 1858 + - 2 yrs, Portsea, hampshire on Findmypast and the results have come up just as I remembered. There are two (2) Thomas Kings. The one I can't locate is a labourer b. 1859, Portsea and living in Oxford Buildings, with wife Elizabeth born Dorset (this important for identifying them) and children Florence and Jane.
The other Thomas is, I'm fairly sure, Thomas who is the son of Thomas Reuben who is b. 1858, a fireman on HMS Discovery with a wife, also Elizabeth, born Kent (this important for identifying them), and three girls: Edith, Rose W and Ethel. They are in Caversham Rd.
Which census is this please, where they both appear separately?
-
Presumably it was 1891.
-
Dear ciderdrinker,
I have come across the Thomas King, son of Thomas and Caroline, but a) the birth date is a long way from his age in 1891 and 1901, though it weirdly agrees with the 1911 census so could, just possibly, be our man, b) I just haven't seen sufficient evidence post that entry to determine that it is him. With so much misinformation it's difficult to be certain. That is why I decided to ask around on Rootschat
Brian
-
It's much easier to find people if you give the reference :)
I have just looked looked up Thomas King born 1858 + - 2 yrs, Portsea, hampshire on Findmypast and the results have come up just as I remembered. There are two (2) Thomas Kings. The one I can't locate is a labourer b. 1859, Portsea and living in Oxford Buildings, with wife Elizabeth born Dorset (this important for identifying them) and children Florence and Jane.
RG 12 / 855/ 135 / 11
The other Thomas is, I'm fairly sure, Thomas who is the son of Thomas Reuben who is b. 1858, a fireman on HMS Discovery with a wife, also Elizabeth, born Kent (this important for identifying them), and three girls: Edith, Rose W and Ethel. They are in Caversham Rd.
RG 12 / 869 / 121 / 25
-
I'm not sure what Reference you mean but if it Archive Ref, then Thomas the fireman on HMS Discovery is
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 869
Folio 121
Page 25
Record set 1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
-
And the Thomas King I am trying to research is
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 855
Folio 135
Page 11
Record set 1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
-
I'm not sure what Reference you mean
Those are the same references that I gave (but in a different form). The conventional way is as I gave them.
It makes it so much easier for people to find them :)
-
The other Thomas is, I'm fairly sure, Thomas who is the son of Thomas Reuben who is b. 1858, a fireman on HMS Discovery with a wife, also Elizabeth, born Kent (this important for identifying them), and three girls: Edith, Rose W and Ethel. They are in Caversham Rd.
On Ancestry transcribed as the Hires family!
-
OK Jen B, thank you. Lesson learned.
Hires? I suppose I just about see it, though it also obviously King
-
Hello Ciderdrinker again
Yes I was brief on the Thomas and Caroline King as his parents but I was running out of time on the Library computer which shuts off automatically.Not a great day yesterday.
I went back to the GRO index for Portsea c 1858/9 and like the others failed to find your Thomas King only the other one son of Thomas Rueban King.
So I looked up the earlier date of birth from the other census and found a Thomas King s of Thomas and Caroline.
1861 35 Chalton Place Portsea
Thomas King 41 engine driver Portsea
Caroline 35 charwoman
Thomas 14 at home
Maria 12 scholar
Henry 10
Edward 7
Mary Ann 2
His mother Caroline seems to die 2 Oct 1881 in the workhouse and the family split up after the 1861 census when it seems Thomas senior died c 23 July 1870.Both buried at Kingston Cemetery Portsmouth.
Thomas King junior's military record is on FindMyPast .He signed up 12 Oct 1865 to the 14 foot regiment.
Thomas can't have married during his time in the Army because his gives his next of Kin as his sister Mrs Davies/Davis Landport Hants .So he is single when he leaves in 15.2.1887.He gives his occupation as labourer and is 19 when he joins.
He is not on the 1881 census because he is abroad but Elizabeth is at no 13 Providence Place
1881
Elizabeth Newton wife 22 stoker's wife Weymouth
Jane 2 Portsmouth
So for some reason she leaves Providence place for Oxford buildings in 1891 only to return in 1901.
Is she hiding the fact that she is still married? After all ,her address on her marriage was 11 Providence place,father Isaac labourer so why leave her home? Isaac remained there till his death in 1902.
It seems William J Newton died in Portsmouth Mar qtr 1920 age 67 .In 1901 he is in Chance St with new 'wife ' Emma age 48 from London.
So it looks yes that Elizabeth was already married and therefore couldn't marry Thomas King.He must have been around by 1889 to father Florence which would fit with his discharge in 1887.
Ciderdrinker
-
Hello cider drinker,
That's marvellous. Thank you so much. I don't know any way of proving it but it makes as much sense as any other story we've come up with. The only real question is why on earth their birth years are so at variance in the two censuses before 1911. I don't imagine we'll ever know; maybe they were drunk. Haha!
Thanks again for all your efforts.
Brian