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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Tigers on Monday 11 February 19 09:06 GMT (UK)
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any help appreciated in solving the ongoing and extremely frustrating search for information on Bridget Brown nee McGuggin OR McGuggan.
Facts I know .....
(1) Arrived with her sister Mary on the RED ROVER on 10th August, 1832.
(2) Married Charles William Brown at Scots Church, Elizabeth Street, Sydney on 28th October, 1833.
(3) They had two children .... Charlotte Mary Ann who lived till 1918 and John who died in 1837 aged 5 months and 14 days.
(4) Bridget died on 8th June, 1837 at Elizabeth Street, Sydney after a long severe illness. I know this from a Death Notice placed in The Australian on 9th June, 1837 by her husband who was a newspaper Editor.
My health is not great and I would dearly love to solve the mystery as to exactly where in Ireland she originated, her parents names and to understand why there is no BDM Death record for her online.
Any thoughts?
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I don’t think civil registration began in NSW until 1856.
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There is just one death recorded for a Bridget Brown:-
BROWN BRIDGET 184/1839 V1839184 132 AGE 33
This is from the NSW government website.
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Sorry must have read the info I found wrong!
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You're not mistaken. Trove shows the death notice you mention, with date 9th June 1837. ???
Yesterday Evening, at her residence, Elizabeth-street, Sydney, the Wife of Mr. Charles William
Brown, Compositor of the Commercial Journal, after seven months' severe illness.
Bevj
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Thanks for everyone's assistance but this may the proverbial dead end! I received this reply back from BDM ......
We have searched the death indexes for this person and was unable to find a record of her death under her married or maiden name.
The Registry began registering the full details of all Births, Deaths and Marriages in 1856. Any records held prior to this period are from the registers of various churches.
As there was no government facility to record the details of life events before 1856, there were no guidelines in place to assist ministers or priests, and so the information recorded in church registers was generally limited, if registered at all.
So it may be that her death was never registered at the time.
This may be of benefit in your research .......
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Hi there,
I am sorry that the email reply from the NSW BDM enquiry does not help you find your Bridget's parents. I can confirm that those Early Church Records are scant on the vital family history information as they are the Church burial registers. I confirm that until the NSW BDM was established and commenced operations (1 March 1856) that there was no civil administrative process for registering NSW deaths. NSW death certificates frequently record the names of the parents of the deceased, also how long the deceased has lived in NSW/Australia, their marriage/s, details of their children, their usual address and other details, including the medico's certified cause/s of death, duration of the illness/es and the funeral director's certified records too... But if the person died before the commencement of civil registration then we need to rely on the available church records and any family papers; deceased estate files/probate packets; newspaper reports; cemetery records; online indexes; offline indexes; family history groups research; published family history books;the various not for profit groups; commercial family history websites and of course Rootschat. ;D
What information do you already have re your Bridget who arrived per the Red Rover in 1832? Here is a live link to ten pages of the passenger list for that voyage (10 August 1832)
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?series=NRS5312&item=4_4822&ship=Red%20Rover
JM
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Burial Registers have been filmed ;) :D
See project SAG, NLA, NSWSL
http://catalogue.sag.org.au/attachments/42611/Reel%200135.pdf See their ref AO 5/4127 and also 54218 :D and perhaps seek out the image for your Bridget's burial ... perhaps there may be (and of course, likely NOT) a margin note on the register ...
Ask online via the National Library of Australia :) https://www.nla.gov.au/askalibrarian
JM
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I cannot confirm, but I think it very likely, that if you were to seek out the burial details for their infant son, that Bridget would have been buried with him. However, I realise that you are seeking info about her Irish origins and are hoping to find her parents...
So may I ask what you have already gleaned from perhaps researching her sister who also came per the Red Rover in 1832 ...
JM
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An earlier thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=718751.0
JM
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From that earlier thread :
Bridget's sister Mary Ann married George Pepper and BDM entries of births to this couple were in Newcastle region. There are two BDM death entries for Mary Pepper - one in Paddington in 1877 showing the age at death of 59 which does not fit. The other entry is for Goulburn but that does not fit geographically.
Is the George Henry PEPPER who in 1867 married Mary Ann MOXOY at Raymond Terrace connected to your Mary Ann ? :D The NSW BDM online index has a number of births registered in the Newcastle/Raymond Terrace area from 1868 to 1879... and likely they would be of that 1867 marriage...
I have not found your Bridget's sister, Mary Ann (Mrs George PEPPER) .... ???
JM
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I am confuddled, you have ruled out the death in 1877 of Mary Ann PEPPER, of Paddington at age 59. (birth year of around 1818) but you have Mary Ann arriving in 1832 on the Red Rover, at age 19 … (birth year of around 1813) Do you have a copy of the official transcription or the actual d.c.? Does it give the details of her marriage, and her children including perhaps Charlotte Mary Anna, whose marriage back in 1859 was registered in Paddington (#1113/1859) … likely she married Amos AVERY, who in the 1870s was a carter of 1 Mary Street, Surry Hills (ie within the Paddington BDM registration district)….
If the only reason you found to rule that out was the age difference, it is only a five year difference, and it is information given by the informant, which if either her son in law or her daughter may reflect what they ‘knew’ rather than her actual year of birth…. An adult person’s exact age was not a critical issue in that era…
Although the online index does NOT display the given names for that Mary Ann PEPPER’s parents, it should give you ‘how long’ in the colony (of NSW) and the name of her spouse, and her maiden name and perhaps even her home townland… So, likely it won’t lead directly to knowing the names and details for Bridget’s origins, it may well be a step closer to your goal, but it may well give you enough info to confirm that Mary Ann was likely to be Bridget’s sister … (NSW BDM ref 2751/1877) ... And it should give you the cemetery for Mary Ann, and oh ... which may well be where Bridget was interred .... and that cemetery's headstones may be transcribed and .... I must not get ahead of myself :D
JM
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George Henry PEPPER died 1936 and his wife survived him
Obit
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/141513464
Her name was Mary Ann
She died in 1938
PEPPER Mary Ann
22797/1938
RICHARD & MARY
MAYFIELD
She appears to be the sister of William MOXEY who died-
MOXEY William
8370/1918
RICHARD & MARY
RAYMOND TERRACE
JM has given you the marriage between Mary Ann MOXEY and George PEPPER.
Here is a funeral notice for Mary Ann
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/132848770
A tribute and picture for George Henry PEPPER
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/140499394
Sue
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Further obituary and notes on Mary Ann PEPPER, widow of Geo Henry PEPPER.
She was born in Devon
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/133275785
Sue
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So this is probably the marriage you are intending to list.
411/1835 V1835411 73A
PEPPER George
MCGUGGIN MaryA
JA
This man was possibly police constable at Goulburn in 1837
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2210537
The Mary Ann PEPPER who died in GOULBURN was of parents Henry and Susan 1885/6843
The ships list of Red Jacket EDIT Rover shows 2 different spellings of the surname.
Mary was to report to Mr BEA of George Street.
Bridget to Mr EVANS of Sydney.
Perhaps you have something to confirm the sisterhood of these 2 women.
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Charlotte M A EVERY's death is indexed with parents as Charles and Bridget, registered 1918 Balmain North. (#5373). The informant must have been a diligent keeper of family history ... for Charlotte was in her 85th year, and Bridget had been dead for 81 of those years...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15787245 SMH 17 June 1918.
JM
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What information do you already have re your Bridget who arrived per the Red Rover in 1832? Here is a live link to ten pages of the passenger list for that voyage (10 August 1832)
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?series=NRS5312&item=4_4822&ship=Red%20Rover
JM
I can see this is a different passenger list, but for the same voyage .... and there I can see that Bridget is recorded as aged 13. I have read that the girls on that voyage were mostly from Limerick, and were drawn from the Orphans and Foundlings Hospital .... but I cannot find anything to support that notion. Apparently there's a newspaper cutting from April 1832 from a Limerick Chronicle .... but I have not found it...
ADD, page 9 of 10 :)
JM
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Thanks for the kind advice as it is much appreciated. After receiving advice from BDM about death records not occurring reliable before the 1850's I tried searching for the son of Bridget and Charles who died a month before Bridget. Strangely a search of every combination I could think of yielded no result but a search on Ancestry for him provided this ..
Name: John S Brown
Death Date: 1837
Death Place: New South Wales
Registration Year: 1837
Registration Place: Sydney, New South Wales
Volume Number: V18371899 21
I have tried to enter the record number every way I could think of and it does not accept it. Any ideas on exactly how the number should be input? It makes me think that if a search for this child is non productive then it may well be the same problem with Bridget.
Regards,
Paul
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Thanks for the kind advice as it is much appreciated. After receiving advice from BDM about death records not occurring reliable before the 1850's I tried searching for the son of Bridget and Charles who died a month before Bridget. Strangely a search of every combination I could think of yielded no result but a search on Ancestry for him provided this ..
Name: John S Brown
Death Date: 1837
Death Place: New South Wales
Registration Year: 1837
Registration Place: Sydney, New South Wales
Volume Number: V18371899 21
I have tried to enter the record number every way I could think of and it does not accept it. Any ideas on exactly how the number should be input? It makes me think that if a search for this child is non productive then it may well be the same problem with Bridget.
Regards,
Paul
Sorry for long quote, I am on e reader ::)
At NSW BDM deaths index online,
Select the option for searching by number, YES (default is NO) .. and enter 1899 in first box and 1837 in second box.
Then press search button ....
It is pointing to the Early Church Record : Volume 21, line 1899, of the year 1837.
Alternatively just use the 'less gives more' method for NSW BDM online index and enter BROWN and then next box enter John and scroll down missing all the other boxes until year ... enter 1837 for start and finish ...
Add ... volume 21 is definitely C of E.
JM
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What information do you already have re your Bridget who arrived per the Red Rover in 1832? Here is a live link to ten pages of the passenger list for that voyage (10 August 1832)
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?series=NRS5312&item=4_4822&ship=Red%20Rover
JM
I can see this is a different passenger list, but for the same voyage .... and there I can see that Bridget is recorded as aged 13. I have read that the girls on that voyage were mostly from Limerick, and were drawn from the Orphans and Foundlings Hospital .... but I cannot find anything to support that notion. Apparently there's a newspaper cutting from April 1832 from a Limerick Chronicle .... but I have not found it...
ADD, page 9 of 10 :)
JM
Sorry for the delay in following this up, I hope the following results from some newspaper searchings is helpful...
The Morning Post 4 April 1832
Ship News …. Cork, March 30 ...
Arrived the Red Rover, Chrystie, from London for New South Wales.
I have not yet found any newspaper cutting for April 1832 that mentions the Orphans and Foundlings Hospital being where the girls who came on the Red Rover arriving August 1832, but I have found some clues as to where the girls were from ….
The Morning Post 17 April 1832
Emigration … Limerick April 11 …
We stated some posts since that 200 females were to proceed from this port to New South Wales. The Red Rover transport having arrived in Cove for their conveyance, 44 females forwarded by the Inisfail steamer from Dublin, embarked on board her yesterday. This morning 140 females from this city and vicinity proceeded by one of the river steam-boats for Cove to embark also in the transport. – (Cork Chronicle of Monday).
I found the Limerick Chronicle of Wednesday 11 April 1832 (but NOT the Cork Chronicle) and the very short article there simply reads:
One hundred and eighty-four free female emigrants, under 30 years of age each, embarked yesterday at Cork, in the Red Rover transport, for New South Wales.
I also found a mention of the Limerick Evening Post and Clare Sentinel of 3 April 1832. I have NOT found that edition online, but I can see that the National Library of Australia does have the newspaper listed in its catalogue. https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/1740310 Apparently the article reads:
New wives for New South Wales -- vessel, we believe the Red Rover, has been taken up by the Government, for the purpose of conveying 200 free female emigrants from Cork to New South Wales, who are to be provided with situations or husbands as chance may offer, on their arrival
Perhaps that Limerick newspaper may have mentions of the surnames MCGUGGIN or MCGUGGAN … I see it is digitised and available via subscription services.
So, 200 females aged under 30, and eligible to marry ...
44 from Dublin (may have been born/raised elsewhere, but that's where they had been prior to travelling to Cork to board the Red Rover)
140 already in Cork (may have been born/raised elsewhere, but they were from Cork and its vicinity prior to boarding the Red Rover there)
16* unaccounted for .... Need to check if 200 embarked or if that was a nominal figure...
The Sydney Gazette 11 August 1832
Arrivals ... From Cork, yesterday the ship Red Rover, Captain Christie, with 202 free female settlers and two children, one born on the voyage .... they appear to be between the ages of 16 and 24.
Paper says Landed 202 female settlers plus 2 children.
Likely that would be made up of :
44 Dublin
140 Cork and vicinity
18* unsure (variations in the figures deduced from those newspaper reports 16 or 18)
1 child unsure
1 child born on voyage
Does that match with the passenger lists?
Anyways, now it should be possible to seek out any baptismal records for McGuggin/McGuggan (and other variations) in the right range of years for those two girls ... I should note that on some of the Bounty lasses I have researched in past years, I recall finding that some baptismal records were dated in the weeks prior to embarking .... perhaps as part of the application process needed by some of the Emigration Agents.
JM
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Hi All ...... and thanks for your guidance. I have exhausted every avenue as well as alleyways with no success.
Perhaps someone is Ireland can help me discover where Bridget McGuggin OR McGuggan and her sister Mary Ann came from in Ireland. They arrived in Sydney on 10th August, 1832 on the vessel Red Rover. The ship sailed from Cork in Ireland so she could live somewhere close to that location.
Any assistance is greatly appreciated.
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So this is probably the marriage you are intending to list.
411/1835 V1835411 73A
PEPPER George
MCGUGGIN MaryA
JA
This man was possibly police constable at Goulburn in 1837
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2210537
The Mary Ann PEPPER who died in GOULBURN was of parents Henry and Susan 1885/6843
The ships list of Red Jacket EDIT Rover shows 2 different spellings of the surname.
Mary was to report to Mr BEA of George Street.
Bridget to Mr EVANS of Sydney.
Perhaps you have something to confirm the sisterhood of these 2 women.
Hi,
I would just like to offer a reminder that the information you have apparently relied on about Mary Ann PEPPER of Newcastle was not correct and I have given you details which are more likely correct.
If you have no certification of any sort on your Bridget, then how do you know they were sisters?
Perhaps I have missed a connection somewhere!
Sue
ADDING
One George PEPPER of Goulburn had a sister named Mary and it is probably her death which is recorded in Goulburn in 1885/6843
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Yes, I too am concerned as to if they were sisters ... I expect the official records for their 1830s marriages should have the witnesses noted on them, even in that era and show how their surnames were recorded on those parish registers....
On one set of passenger lists they have different spellings and on another set they are both the same age ... suggesting twin sisters, but not listed together consecutively on any .... suggesting not siblings....
Perhaps there are baptismal records in Ireland ...
JM