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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: mcmacey on Friday 01 February 19 17:06 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help with a slightly mysterious death?
My great-great grandfather James Murphy's death was registered on 17 May 1875. The entry in the register says that he died aged 33 years on 15 May 1875 at 7.30am in Linthouse Shipbuilding yard Govan. The cause of death is given as "Unknown" (in quotes). It also notes that he died suddenly and then where it would normally say 'as certified by', it says 'Not Certified'.
Has anyone seen anything similar? Does it mean there might have been an industrial accident or could it have been natural causes? Shouldn't there have been an inquiry?
Any thoughts welcome!
Betty
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No, not uncommon. It just means that a doctor has not been involved and the cause of death was therefore just what the informant told the registrar.
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Often in such cases you will find a reference at the left side of the certificate to an entry in the Register of Corrected entries. If that is the case there is a link to the page in the RCE on the page you found the death certificate on ScotlandsPeople.
You should also check the newspapers in case there is a report of an accident.
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Thanks. There is no reference to RCE. I have checked online newspapers. I don’t know whether the Mitchell has any records of local newspapers but I can’t get there as I live in Essex now.
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The Paisley Herald and Renfrewshire Advertiser of 22nd May 1875 reported his death.
Unfortunately I don't currently have a subscription to see the complete entry, but what is visible reads:
On Saturday morning a man named James Murphy, while engaged in employment as a hammerman in Messrs Alex. Stephen & Sons' shipyard, Linthouse, suddenly fell to the ground ....
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It was not compulsory to have a medical attendant at a death until much later and at that time period even if requested a doctor was not compelled to attend.
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If you cut and paste this
hammerman in Messrs Alex. Stephen
into Britishnewspaper archives the death notice comes up
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results?basicsearch=killed%20linthouse&retrievecountrycounts=false
If you register, you get three free pages, so you can read this without a subscription and save the other two pages for something else
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Has anyone seen anything similar?
Yes, often
Does it mean there might have been an industrial accident or could it have been natural causes? Shouldn't there have been an inquiry?
It usually means that the cause of death was natural and so obvious that it wasn't even necessary to get a doctor to certify the cause of death.
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Thank you all so much. The poor man apparently just keeled over and died. His infant daughter had died two months earlier of bronchitis/tuberculosis so possibly he’d been living with something similar trying to keep a roof over the family’s head. But it does leave me with another puzzle to solve - the article says he left his wife and four children -so far I only know of three of them, not counting the child who pre-deceased him. Fascinating.
Thank you again!
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Hi Betty
What was the name of James' wife? Could it be Rose McCabe? Here in 1871:
James Murphy 30 hammerman
Rose Murphy 31
Hugh Murphy 6
Maniel Murphy 5
Margt Murphy 3
Ellen Murphy 1
Address: 21 Duncan St, Greenock
Monica
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Hi Monica,
No, I’m aware of that record but it’s definitely a different family. My James Murphy was married to Susan Murphy (also MS Murphy). Coincidentally they also had daughters named Mary Ann and Margaret, but it’s their daughter Sarah who was my great grandmother.
There was also another baby sister, Catherine, who only lived a few months - she died in March 1975.
I can’t find the 4th child referred to as still living in the newspaper article. James and Sarah were married in Belfast in 1862 or 1863; I know Mary Ann was born in Belfast in 1866; and Sarah was born in Anderson in 1869. Margaret was probably born in Glasgow about 1868. So there is room for another child but the family seems to be absent from the 1871 census, just to complicate matters.
Thanks for your interest,
Betty
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The family appear to be back in Ireland in 1871.
There is a birth for a Susan Murphy, born 4th Dec. 1871 in Belfast.
Parents James Murphy and Susan Murphy (maiden name)
The image is available on Irish Genealogy site
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
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Thank you for that - I don’t really know my way round the Irish records though I managed to find Mary Ann in there. I suspected they might have gone back as although she was born in Glasgow, Granny Sarah thought she had been born in Ireland because she remembered coming to Scotland as a very young child.
But poor wee Susan - she was another victim of the dreaded bronchial disease that afflicted so many people then. She died in 1875 two months after her father's death.
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So you now have all 5 daughters for James and Susan? Not sure on the birth order, but from the names you mention:
Mary Ann b. 1866
Sarah...your grandmother
Margaret ?
Catherine died 1875, before father James
Susan b. 1871 and died 1875, after father James
Given Catherine died before father, there would have been four children as reported by newspapers.
Monica
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Is this daughter Catherine's birth?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ7G-S5S
Catherine Murphy
22 Jun 1874
GOVAN, LANARK
James Murphy
Susan Murphy
If so, her birth cert will have her parents' marriage date and place if you don't have it yet.
Monica
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Hi Monica
Yes that is Catherine. Her cert says the marriage took place on 20 September 1863 in Belfast, but Sarah's cert says it was September 1862 - hence my equivocation.
I think (hope) that's it for James Murphy's children - I don't really want any more infant deaths! Susan remarried and had two more children, both boys.
Can I ask what source you are using? I do use Scotlandspeople but I resent how expensive their charging structure is.
Betty
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Family Search is good for Scottish indexes particularly up to mid 1870s www.familysearch.org (you need to register but it is free to use).
Scotlands People is the only source for original BMDs and online images.
Monica
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I think (hope) that's it for James Murphy's children - I don't really want any more infant deaths! Susan remarried and had two more children, both boys.
Betty, there is one entry I saw earlier...wondered whether it could be for a first born:
Sarah Catherine Murphy
13 Apr 1864
Birthplace ANDERSTON, GLASGOW
Father's Name James Murphy
Mother's Name Susan Murphy
And also to the same parents in the Anderston area:
Sarah Murphy
9 May 1869
Couldn't see any reference to them in 1871. If your James and Susan, they could have been going back and forth.
Monica
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I do use Scotlandspeople but I resent how expensive their charging structure is.
The cost of viewing one certificate at Scotland's People is currently £1.50, which is rather less than a cup of coffee or a pint of beer. And you get your certificate instantly.
The corresponding charge in England and Wales is £6, and it is about to go up to £7 (not quite five Scottish certificates)
Queensland charges AUS$22, equivalent to £12.19 (8 Scottish certificates)
New Zealand charges NZ$25, equivalent to £13.16 (nearly 9 SCottish certificates)
Victoria has just reduced its charge to AUS$24.50, equivalent to £13.57 (9 Scottish certificates)
New South Wales charges AUS$34, equivalent to £18.84, plus a credit card surcharge (12 Scottish certificates).
Certainly you can rack up a lot of money if you get carried away, but the charging structure is one of the cheapest for getting online access to historical certificates bar a very few states and countries who make them available free.
And the Scottish pre-1855 church records and censuses to 1901 can be viewed free of charge in many libraries and family history centres, including, by arrangement, in LDS Church FHCs anywhere in the world.
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Hi Monica
The names are the same but they are different parents - father’s occupation is wrong and marriage date is 15 June 1852.
Thanks anyway
Betty
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Dear Forfarian
As there are no transcripts and not all the indexed fields are displayed in the search results, one often needs to look at the original documents on Scotlandspeople in order to eliminate incorrect hits. It’s not a case of simply getting carried away as you suggest.
I have annual subscriptions to Ancestry and FindMyPast ando much prefer the unlimited access those offer as well as the fuller data provided in search results. On the few occasions when I have applied for a certificate that is my choice.
Betty Macey
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See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0