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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Thornbird4 on Tuesday 29 January 19 19:30 GMT (UK)
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Hi all. Advice needed.
My Mum was born 14 September 1925 illegitimately to Annie Vickers (nee Shaw) in the workhouse maternity wing - she was never in the workhouse as such but as my mum was very overdue that is where she was sent. (123 Crescent Road, Crumpsall). All I know of my grandfather is that his name was possibly William Woolfenden. I can find nothing about this relationship anywhere even though she had three illegitimate daughters by this man. I think he may have been married but I'm not sure. I also think he may have been Jewish but my grandmother came from a devout Roman Catholic family.
My question is, how can I find the workhouse records to see if a fathers name was given so I could clarify I have the right name and if it gives any further information? Also, is there anywhere else I could look to find some information?
Any help would be very much appreciated.
Thornbird
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Hi just when did Ann Shaw marry Mr Vickers, were the other Shaw children born pre or post your mother?
Keyboard86
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There is a marriage in 1914 - Shaw and Vickers with 4 children born 1914 - 1922.
I couldn’t see a 1925 birth on Free BMD but can see one on another site.
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Hi. Thanks for your replies.
My grandmother married Charles Vickers in 1914 and had two sons with him. Charles died in 1918 and then my grandmother had three daughters with "William Woolfenden" out of wedlock. (1920, 1922 and 1925). She never revealed this fact to my mother or aunts who all believed that Charles Vickers had been their father and her story was that Charles had died in 1925 shortly before my mums birth. She did eventually tell the oldest daughter shortly before her death. It only came out to the rest of the family when I started tracing my family tree over 20 years ago and I asked this aunt where my grandfather was buried.
I have my mother's birth certificate but the father is left blank as is her baptism certificate. All I know is a potential name. One of my aunts is still alive and I would love to be able to tell her something of her father and to know who my real grandfather was.
Many thanks.
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There are a few William Wo(o)lfendens of the right sort of age (born 10 years either side of 1890) on both the 1901 and 1911 censuses in Lancashire. Depending where your grandmother lived in 1920's may suggest a few are more likely than others. Also how did your grandmother support herself and her five children? Her occupation, if she had one, may also point to some of the William W's as being more likely than others. Then you could try to follow the most probable individuals - do they marry, have children, die, appear on 1939 register etc. Finally (and this would require tons of tact!) you could test their descendants' DNA against your own...maybe :-\
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This may help https://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory_record/212444/crumpsall_workhouse/category/1371/workhouse
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Good points AC, Annie's occupation on any of those 3 birth certificates would definitely help. So would the 1921 census ;D
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HI If I am correct Annie Vickers remarries 1931 Northampton and the Vickers boys plus the girls b 1920/22 are in Northampton 1939, still would love to find out how William Wollfenden came into the equation ie who told who that he was the father of the 1920/2/5 children?
Keyboard86
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Thank you again for your replies.
There is no occupation on two of the girls' birth certificates but on my mums it says charwoman. I think she worked for a time at Booth Hall. Her address on all the birth certificates is 101 Back Cropper Street, Manchester which was roughly in the centre of Manchester - now the Oldham Road dual carriageway, I believe.
Keyboard86 - that is indeed my grandmother. She left Manchester in 1926 and relocated to Northampton where the family still live. I have Charles Vickers death certificate and he did indeed die in 1918. My grandmother told her eldest daughter the truth of their father but my aunt kept it to herself for many years until I asked where my grandfather was buried.
Blackburn Fossil. Thank you for that link. I'll look into it.
Alpine Cottage. I have done Ancestry DNA but it didn't come up with any close matches. I don't know how she supported herself.
Thornbird.
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:) Bur what you have not answered is how did William Woolfendens' name crop up as potential father of the 3 girls?
Keyboard86
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I think the implication is that the grandmother told the oldest girl, who eventually revealed what she knew when Thornbird asked where the grandfather was buried.
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Yes that makes sense.
Keyboard86
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Thronbird
There was another Rootschatter researching the Woolfenden name a few years back. I went grave hunting for him in Rochdale a couple of times.
Looking at his username he has not been on here for about a year but maybe worth dropping a note to him.
user: wlfndl
Regards
Blackburn
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Wlfndl here, I would love to help with any Wolfenden Woolfenden research that is need!
Thank you again Blackburn Fossil for your help it opened many doors for my research.
I still think my Jonathan Wolfenden and Mary Gridrod's grave is either buried below the grass to listed on the back of the Wolfenden of Closebarn graves.
Thanks Bill
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Hi Thornbird,
Since wlfndl has resurrected this thread after it being dormant for a few years, have you managed to find out anything useful about your grandmother in the 1921 Census? For instance, if she was co-habiting with anyone, or whether there was a William Woolfenden living in the same neighbourhood etc? One assumes that since they had more than one child together, the relationship was more than just a fling, even if he was still married to someone else.
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could someone email me please about the Vickers / Wolfenden story, thank Bill
wlfndl at aol dot com
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Following on from my previous posting there appear to be 4 Annie Vickers (plus a Eunice Annie and a Lizzie Ann) in the birth range 1890-1900, in the Salford/Manchester area in 1921. Two look particularly interesting based on the snippet that FindMyPast provides without you actually buying the transcript:
Annie, William and Rose at one address
and
Annie, Edward William and Elizabeth at another address.
There's a William Henry Wolfenden with a Sarah Ann, Elsie and 4 others at a Manchester address
and
an Ernest William Wolfenden, William, Emma and 3 others at a South Manchester address.
Both William Wolfendens come up based on the same birth range ie 1890-1900. Obviously he might have been older than Annie
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I found:
Mary Vickers Birth date July-Aug-Sep 1925
Birth place Manchester North, Lancashire, England
Mother's maiden name Shaw Volume 8D Page 699
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Thank you for bringing this one back.
Since posting, through DNA, I have discovered that my grandfather was William Rothwell Wolfenden who was born in Oldham in 1884 and died in 1937 in Manchester. He was married at the time of his relationship with my grandmother and had five children with his wife, one of them being born the same year as my mother! I have found him on the 1921 census so do know a little bit more about him.
I would love to see a picture of him but have had no success so far.
Thank you for your interest.