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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Forestandtree on Monday 28 January 19 02:50 GMT (UK)
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In tracing ancestors in LlanddewiBreifi/ Doethie Camddwr 1851 Census, I came across, in the occupation column, 686 acres, including sheep walk.
I am wondering if anyone is able to tell me what this sheep walk means and what it entailed, please.
Many thanks. F & T
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Hello,
Any chance of you posting the image please F & T. I don't have the wherewithall to find it myself.
My guess - without seeing the image or really knowing anything is maybe droving, or shepherding.
But . . .seeing the image might change that thought. ;D
Wiggy
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I was thinking along the same lines as Wiggy with the drover/shepherd idea, but when I searched old newspapers I find myself wondering if he was an owner of a sheep walk. ???
The following is just one example of many, which might help (or further confuse!)
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sheep%20walk
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That makes sense then doesn't it - somewhere sheep can be kept - a field or paddock in fact!
The Welsh being different and 'interesting' ;)
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Is gyrn Welsh for horn?
Was the area mountainy? Edit. Yes. I've now noticed "Brecon" in the advert.
The sheep walks seem large in comparison to the size of the farms which they accompany.
I suggest that a sheep walk is/was part of the mountain to which sheep on a named farm were hefted. Each farm would have rights to pasture an agreed number of sheep on the common mountainside. The sheep are turned out to the mountain in early summer when their lambs are sturdy enough to cope. Each flock makes its' way to the same area - the heft where it grazed in previous years. Each ewe and her daughters will have a favourite section where they graze. The memory is passed from mother to daughter through many generations. Few sheep stray. Any that do will be returned either to the mountain or to their owner after a gathering.
While the sheep are spending summer on the mountain, fields on the farm which they grazed from Autumn to Spring have time to recover. Some fields will be harvested for hay, silage and perhaps other crops; some fields may be left as pasture and may be grazed by cattle. (Sheep and cattle graze differently.)
This system is traditional in upland Britain. It's a world away from modern factory-farming.
Edit. Some of my ancestors were Lambs, although not in Wales. ;D
Some of my family were shepherds (with a small s).
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Each ewe and her daughters will have a favourite section where they graze. The memory is passed from mother to daughter through many generations. Few sheep stray.
I did not know that.... quite interesting!
I wonder now, would his occupation technically be a flock master, or some variant of that meaning?
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I am inclined to agree with the mother and youngster passing on suitable sites. Yes in that great newspaper article {thanks} the sheep walks are large: maybe it was the way to get the sheep to market, as Brecon was not too far, without uproar from locals. It looks like a mountainous area.
Will try an 'send' 1851 Census {if I am not infringing any rights!}
Many many thanks to all who replied: you are a fantastic lot.
F & T
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I suggest that a sheep walk is/was part of the mountain to which sheep on a named farm were hefted. Each farm would have rights to pasture an agreed number of sheep on the common mountainside. The sheep are turned out to the mountain in early summer when their lambs are sturdy enough to cope. Each flock makes its' way to the same area - the heft where it grazed in previous years
Ah ha - so that would explain the apparently unfenced sheep grazing in the hills above Llangollen when we went for a drive up that way through the old slate areas - (sheep with different coloured paint splotches on them - mostly pink thereabouts, if I remember correctly. ;))
Very interesting. The things you learn. 8)
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I think the paint splotches (if they are on their lower back) are the signs of which Ram has serviced them (the Ram having a block of chalk stuff tied to their under belly)
The ID's for the sheep themselves will be via ear tags.
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I think the paint splotches (if they are on their lower back) are the signs of which Ram has serviced them (the Ram having a block of chalk stuff tied to their under belly)
The ID's for the sheep themselves will be via ear tags.
Just out of curiosity, are ewes a One-Ram kind of lady, or what would happen in case of a rainbow of "paint splotches"?
F & T, you can post a snippet only of a census, or just give us the names so we can look it up. I don't know if the abode name is showing, but this link gives names of sheep walks near Doethie Camddwr : https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/c944f914-a55c-4a26-800b-9d04a133be50
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Hmm, I’m not sure, but I THINK that once they have “done the deed” they go off heat so the Ram is not attracted any more.
Probably a real sheep farmer is looking at this and rolling around laughing too hard to be able to type and tell us the truth.
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My thoughts on the coloured markings on sheep found on open country, are that each colour denotes the owner of the sheep. When they are all gathered at the end of the season, then each owner can claim his/her own flock.
I could be wrong :-\
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Google has the answer! It says the "paint" is for sorting out who's sheep are who's, as these sheep walks aren't fenced, and multiple owners shared them, BUT rams also have that chalk (olden times) or dye bags around their necks (modern times) to mark the ewes.
Look at these fancy painted sheep! https://davidmcguffin.com/daily-lfe/painted-sheep/
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https://www.sheepcanada.com/what-a-marking-harness-can-tell-you/
Link about ram marking harness.
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This is a subject I hadn't thought about for a lot of years ;D
My ex-husband, when we first met, worked for a firm (part of Boots) that sold agricultural supplies including raddles. These are the harnesses rams wear at tupping time. They look a bit like guide dog harnesses but serve a very different purpose. The ram carries a coloured gunge (not a technical term) in its raddle to mark the ewes, so the farmer can make sure all the ewes are likely to produce lambs
I don't know whether the pejorative term 'raddled' derives from this gadget, but it seems plausible :-\
Carol
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Raddled in the sense of the previous post comes from the rather crude make up worn by so many women in Restoration times.
Sometimes as make up is worn today but also to,cover up the marks left by smallpox.
It was a whitish dense ,opaque cream ,the cheeks and lips were daubed with a red cream.
Sadly lead was an ingredient especially of the white face cream.
To be raddled was to be rather old and heavily made up,the stiff cream emphasising the facial wrinkles.
Raddle is also a red wax polish used on quarry tiles,I have some.
A Cardinal red rather than crimson or scarlet.
I suppose the other meaning could have been used for well known “Ladies of the night”!
The raddle from the ram is towards the rear end of the ewe,where the rams chest ,with the raddle pad touches the ewe.
Other marks will be owners’ marking .
The shepherd needs to know how many ewes have had a visit from the ram,and calculate how many lambs are likely and also therefore ultimately how good the ram is .
Up North we say sheep are “hefted “ ,that means they were born and grew up on a particular hillside and never leave it unless sold .
They will often come down when they hear the shepherd’s whistle ,for dipping times or the dogs will go up and bring them down without the shepherd going up as the whistling carries very far, he can often control things from the valley.
Viktoria.
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This is a very interesting thread!! I am learning a lot! :D
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My thoughts on the coloured markings on sheep found on open country, are that each colour denotes the owner of the sheep. When they are all gathered at the end of the season, then each owner can claim his/her own flock.
I could be wrong :-\
A shepherd/farmer can also spot his/her sheep from a distance (with binoculars if necessary) without having to approach them. If more than one member of a family owned a flock there would be slight variations in markings.
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A lot of the Welsh mountain sheep are 'hefted' which means that they have ancestral lands where they go, which makes it easy for the farmer to find them. Here, in the spring, the flocks of mountain sheep - having been brought into the valleys for the winter - will be taken up again to the high commons and let loose, and they will, as flocks, go to their 'hefts', and of course, the farmer would know where to find them. The clearing of the commons in late October is an amazing sight, with thousands of sheep being brought down from the mountains and taken to their winter pastures.
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Ah ha - so that would explain the apparently unfenced sheep grazing in the hills above Llangollen when we went for a drive up that way through the old slate areas - (sheep with different coloured paint splotches on them - mostly pink thereabouts, if I remember correctly. ;))
Also on hills and moors in Northern England and other places. There may be local agreements about grazing dates for conservation reasons. An American visitor in Cumberland was puzzled why the sheep didn't run away. They are truly free-range. Cattle and horses can also be turned out in some areas, e.g. Dartmoor and Exmoor ponies.
There's a scene of a flock heading for the hills in the sheep episode of tv series "The Secret Life of Farm Animals". It's set on a Welsh farm. The sheep were let loose on the mountainside directly above the farm. When they reached the mountain they divided into smaller groups, each group following a separate sheep-path; when a path divided each group split again and so on, until each ewe and her lambs arrived at their own patch of grass.
Dry-stone walls on hill-farms have "cripple-holes" built into them which can be opened to allow sheep access to and fro the fields and hillside/moorland, or blocked to keep them in or out, depending on season, weather, availability of pasture etc. A ewe's familiarity with her area enables her to work out if the nutrition to be gained by going to another grazing spot will exceed energy expended in walking to it.
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MS's post confirms what I said about hefted flocks. Believe me, I could bore you all for hours on hefted flocks on the commons of mid Wales, and the management and history of Welsh common land..... ;D
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Greensleeves once posted a portrait of a handsome Swaledale ram. Swaledale is a small, hardy breed suited for living in upland areas.
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So many breeds ,the Leicester had wool right down to the ground,well the show rams did.
The Herdwick saved from extinction by Beatrix Potter is a hardy sheep ,well in the Lake District they would have to be.
It seems a shame that such wonderful fabric as wool is now so dear yet the fleeces earn farmers very little.
The Highland Blackface has such magnificent horns,those containers Mulls or Mauls I think for tobacco or snuff at Regimental dinners ,great horns mounted in silver look like the horns of the H/land B/face.
Viktoria.
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"The Secret History of Farm Animals" demonstrated, with modern technology, how fleece keeps a sheep warm and dry.
A family connected with one of my lines was called Ewbank (counties of Durham and Yorkshire). I think there is/was a place called Ewbank; I don't know whether place or personal name came first. One parish register with Ewbank has Lamb and Hugginson families. I wondered if the last name derived from Hogg(et), a young sheep. (Huggins is a Northern word for part of sheep anatomy.) Surnames Shepherd and Herd occurred in the register. Another name was Cowburn. (I have Cowban ancestry.)
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An attempt was made to get Hogget more popular.
Like older lamb but not yet as muttony as mutton which can have an unpleasant greasy taste.
It was used quite a bit in one of the big cookery competitions,Great British
Menu I think but don’t hear of it much now.
In Yorkshire and Scotland too the word Ewe is Yow
Probably other places as well.a ram hereabouts is a Tup.
The little paths worn by the hooves of grazing sheep do practically no harm to the landscape whereas those walkers make cause great erosion and need constant maintenance.
Nothing quite like as charming as a little lamb and it wil soon be that time again here.Lambing is earlier in many places.
Nice restaurant near me,the dining room facing a lovely hillside.
In Springtime you can see the new lambs playing,climbing over a fallen tree
and literally gambolling.
It would be a hard person who ordered Spring Lamb from the manu.
Viktoria.
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In Reply #5, Maidenstone said
I suggest that a sheep walk is/was part of the mountain to which sheep on a named farm were hefted.
That sent me on a hunt which may have resulted in something of interest to the OP.
I could only find one farm of "686 acres with sheepwalk" in the census for the area in question in 1851. The farm was Nantllwyd, the head was a widow, Margaret Jones, occupation being farmers widow 686 acres including sheep walk.
In searching for that farm, I came across a blog that mentions a John Jones of Nantllwyd, in the right area ( I think!) who gave up some of the farm to have a church built on it, but he died before it was completed.
The problem I am having is that the writer jumps around in time and places, and I am not sure if they are still talking about the right area when they talk about John's role in the construction etc and there may be more than one farm with that name.
The blog is at http://daibach-welldigger.blogspot.com/2011/07/soar-y-mynydd-revival-at-remotest.html If someone with better eyes than me wants to take a peek at it to confirm, just search the page for Nantllwyd.
Edit I just found a newspaper article from 1933 talking about this church, being the most remote chapel in Wales, which led me to this wiki article!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soar_y_mynydd The History section matches that blog!