RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Andy_T on Sunday 27 January 19 04:56 GMT (UK)
-
Whilst researching my Thurman family history, I came across reports of a murder alongside the wharf at Bull Bridge, Ambergate, Derbyshire in 1875. The mystery is not the killer; it did not need Sherlock Holmes to work out who done it!
What I am trying to do is identify William’s family from Thurmaston, Leicestershire to trace it back to see if there is any connection to my branch of Thurman’s.
William Thurman was a Boatman (described as formally a shoemaker) on the Cromford & Butterley Canal and he struck up a friendship with another Boatman, James Walker, 23 years, who was working for a rival company on the same canel. William lent Walker 3/- and pawned his best suit to help his friend out. Walker, was unable to pay William back in time for the last day he could redeem his suit from the pawnbroker, so after a session at the local public house William went on Walker’s boat and said he was going to take the “Tommy” (provisions) from his cabin cupboard. At some point the shouting and a row grew louder and William was hit on the head three times with the boat rudder and he went into the canal. Later he was pulled out dead.
In December, 1875, this was reported in Midlands, London and even Scottish newspapers and William Thurman’s age was given as 24 years and 29 years in other newspapers.
I looked at census records for Thurmaston, Leicestershire. William was described in newspapers as “formally a shoemaker from Thurmaston". I cannot identify any family called Thurman described as shoemakers in 1871 or 1861 census records. Given William’s age at death was reported as 24 & 29, I found no William matching age 24.
I found a William Thurman dob 1841, matching age 29 (in 1875) but many in this family were flat frame knitters (not shoemakers). The head of this Thurman household was a Joseph Thurman. Also, I cannot find a death registration for a William Thurman, born 1841 at Thurmaston.
December 11th, 1875 Walker’s trial gave the verdict “wilful murder”. Later the verdict changed from murder to manslaughter and James Walker, received 15 years hard labour. At some point in the trial the press reported that William’s father turned up requesting the court to allow him to visit William’s killer in his cell. His request was not granted, and his father was described in newspapers as follows:
“Thurman a poor man and a widower from Thurmaston”.
Unfortunately, William's father's Christian name(s) were not reported.
Any Roots members advice to identify this William Thurman’s family members would be appreciated.
-
FreeBMD have the death registered as William THURNMAN, Dec quarter of 1875, Belper 7b 351, age 24.
The index image matches.
With him being away from home, I doubt that the certificate would help with his origins.
-
Hi Andre,
I will take a look at this and his age 24 seems to be confirmed, although William Thurman born about 1851 did not show up on Thurmaston 1871 Census. I will look again in case I missed it.
Thanks Very Much for your information.
Andrew
-
The best fit I can find is the family of Joseph & Esther (written as Thurnman) at Back St Thurmaston in 1861 (RG9/2282 fol 121 pg 17).
Virtually the whole family are Stocking Weavers; all born Thurmaston.
William, aged 14 (which fits birth Q3 of 1846 Leicester 15 103) could have done an apprenticeship in the shoe trade and then been lured away by 1875.
Joseph is widowed and lodging in Loughborough in 1871; I have not narrowed down William yet. If he was already on the canals of course he could be anywhere.
-
Thanks again Andrew and I found the death record on the FreeBMD you mentioned after checking the phonetics spelling box and as you say it gives the Dec 1875 quarter as a recorded death in Belper area and his age 24 years.
On familysearch.org I found his burial record at Crich, Derbyshire on DEC 07, 1857 (age 25).
On familysearch.org I found 1861 Census showing Williiam age 14 years (so dob about 1847) making him 28 -29 at year of his death in 1875.
Father Joseph age 36 years and Mother Ester age 32 years seen in 1861 census.
Again on family search I found a birth certificate for a Joseph Thurman, born 1825 and at Thurmaston. This fits the age of Joseph (William's father) in the 1861 Census. and Joseph's father named Thomas Thurman (dob 1783) and Joseph's Mother named Susanna (nee Cooke).
These records and newspaper reports all switch between surname Thurnman and Thurman.
The newspaper reports I found reporting William Thurman's murder / manslaughter give his name as THURMAN but it was said in court that people he knew on the canal and on the canel bank, knew him as Thurmaston (presumably after the place he came from in Leicestershire).
I cannot find a marriage certificate for the marriage of Joseph Thurman and Ester.
BTW, I found 3 different newspaper reports in May 1857 about an Esther Thurman and she had charged her husband Joseph at Thurmaston with an assault and he was fined. (spelling variations again "THURMAN" and Esther with "h").
They were described in court as a "loving couple"!
I am guessing that William Thurman did not have a very happy home-life when he lived with his parents (no one knows now). William had 6 younger siblings in 1861 and I bet they depended on his wages for their support after he left home.
This is a sad tale but a very fascinating one at the same time and the William Thurman story would make a good novel or a TV play.
I can't connect this William Thurman's family to my direct family branch nor can I connect his father Thomas. I will try to see who were this Thomas Thurman's parents as I have a couple of trees with two different Thurman family branches going back to 1575.
Andy
-
There's a marriage of a Joseph Thurman to Esther Fisher Q3 1846 Leicester
Not a church wedding on checking my Leics marriage info
GRO (Children 1851 Census)
THURMAN, ELIZABETH FISHER
GRO Reference: 1850 D Quarter in LEICESTER
THURLLMAN, MARY FISHER
GRO Reference: 1848 M Quarter in BARROW UPON SOAR
THURMAN, WILLIAM FISHER
GRO Reference: 1846 S Quarter in LEICESTER UNION Volume 15 Page 103
THURLLMAN, JOHN FISHER
GRO Reference: 1849 D Quarter in LEICESTER Volume 15 Page 89
Same result for Henry and Sarah
-
Thank You Willsy,
I am 99.9% sure the marriage you found in 1846 is the William & Ester who were the parents of William Thurman, unlawfully killed on Bullbridge Wharf, Ambergate in 1875.
Your lead of the name FISHER, enabled me to find Ester Fisher's baptism at Thurmaston 04 MAY, 1828.
I also found 1841 Census (familysearch.org) showing address Back Street, Belgrave, Leicestershire.
Belgrave is 2 miles from Thurmaston where Josepth & Ester Thurnman lived qt time of 1861 census.
Coincidentally, Back Street was also the street name at Thurmaston address in 1861 as well as Ester's childhood home in Belgrave.
In 1841 Ester Fisher age is recorded as 12 years, her 2 parents and 8 siblings + Ester were recorded at this address in the parish of Belgrave.
My initial aim was to identify who the Murdered William Thurman's family was and this is done with help from you and another roots member andrewalston.
I still aim to see if there was any family relationship between William Thurman (murdered) and my family. If there is it will be from earlier generations. Some candidates I found as possible shared ancestors of William and father Joseph and me, lived in other parts of Leicestershire, where I have ancestors; Mountsorrel and Ratcliffe Culley are examples of these places.
Andy_T
-
Got a few relatives in Thurmaston too!
Have not looked at waterways websites for a while but was helped on one to find my gggrandfather on the Cromford Canal in a permit book. Not an expert on this but maybe someone could point you in the right direction.
-
Thanks Willsy,
I you sent a PM saying I did not find Joseph and Ester's Marriage record on FreeBMD or familysearch.org
I should have mentioned that I found a record of marriage for Esther Fisher in 3rd quarter of 1846. Bizarrely it does not give the groom's name.
I don't have any ancestors I know about from Thurmaston but I do have my 8X great grandfather buried in nearby Mountsorrel in 1680.
I attached a jpg file showing some places my ancestors have lived.
Andy_T
-
I took a look at Joseph Thurman's family tree (murdered William's father) and I put it side by side to my tree. These trees only show direct ancestors not all brothers and sisters etc.
On Josephs tree towards the the bottom (being as far as I can go) a bit is in red ink showing possible error or missing information.
Basically on my side a John Thurman, born at Lockington Leicestershire married a Sarah Smith in 1667 at Ashby-De-La-Zouch about 7 miles from Belton, Leicestershire (where Joseph's ancestor, another John Thurman son of Ralf Thurman lived).
In my line, I found John Thurman's son William born in 1669 at Church Gresley, South Derbyshire (less than 12 miles from Mountorrel, Leicestershire) but I did not find any other children.
So was Ralf Thurman a son or relative of my John Thurman?
BTW a Ralf Thurman buried in 1705 in Belton, Leics is child of John Thurman & Lucy Thurman.
Two more Ralf Thurman's buried at Belton 1714 & 1715?
Also a Ralf THORNMAN at Barrow-On-Soar 1695.
Andy_T
-
I found 4 Mountsorrel yomen and a sokeman with name Thurman in 1518, 1534, 1623 and 1658. Wm Thurman was one of just 6 Freeholders in Mountsorrel in 1530 and there were about 68 homes there at that time.
Also a Ralph Thurman, last ancestor I traced of murdered William Thurman.
Ralph Thurman is referred to in History And Antiquities of Leicestershire; in 1671 during a jury meeting of Mountsorrel, Barrow on Soar , Quarndon and Roathlye on checking that town rents, fraudments, misgovernment of lands and messuages, mentions that "one Ralph Thurman, hath not paid his town-rent of eleven fhillings and eight pence per annum, seven years and a half ending the four and twentyeth day of June last amounting in whole to fix pounds, fouteen shillings and two pence;the faid jurors doe further finde that allthe trees of oak, afhe,or elm, ftanding or growing , or hereafter fhall ft and or grow, upon all the faid parcells of land mentioned in the faid fcedule annexed, are, and ought to be, applyed to fome charitable ufes within the faid town of Mountforrel.
5. Ralf Thurman, for one meffuage and backside in Mountforrel aforefaid, in his owne occupation, pays town-rent p annu ~
Later in schedule of 1686 there were 36 people paying town-rent and Ralph is paying way more than any of the others listed.
WHAT WAS TOWN-RENT, WAS THIS WHAT WE NOW CALL COUNCIL TAX OR RATES?
It also mentions that "the faid rent have for several years employed the same part therof, in the firft place, toward the encouragement and better maintaining of the curate refideing within the faid town of Mountforrel".
In 1694 A Ralf Thurman and wife Grace Thurman stood trial in Middlesex on charges to do with money:
Reference: C 7/333/34
Description:
Short title: Tofield v Thurman.
Plaintiffs: Thomas Tofield.
Defendants: Ralph Thurman and Grace Thurman his wife.
Place or subject: money, Middlesex.
Document type: bill and answer
Date: 1694
A Ralph Thurman was buried at Barrow Upon Soar in 1695.
I also found references to a priest from Mountsorrel John Thurman ordained in 1534, another Robert Thurman born 1512 and a Canon at Erdbury in 1531 later rector of Ashby Pava 1556-1582 when he retired a bachelor,
Henry Thurman was rector of the hundred of Sparkenhoe 1560 - 1583.
Was William Thurman of Thurmaston who was murdered and was decended from Ralph Thurman related to my tree?
I think it is likely he was related. Right now I can't connect my tree to Ralph Thurman but the early Thurman records seem to start in the early 1500s and most of the early records show they were freemen, yoman, sokemen and priests (before and after the Reformation of 1537).
I can't prove it but I think we were all probably related back then.
Andy_T
-
Hi, Andrew,
Hope you are still monitoring this thread.
We have traced our Thurman tree back to Thrumpton in Nottinghamshire and there is some evidence that we may have Leicestershire and, possibly, Derbyshire links. This makes me very interested in your tree.
I have a different John marrying Sarah Smith at Ashby De La Zouch in 1667. There is a John (recorded as Joham on FamilySearch) born in Church Gresley to William and Elizabeth in 1637 and I think it is him. The marriage record of John and Sarah has him as resident in Church Gresley.
John and Sarah had two children, William b 1669 and Mary b 1671, both in Church Gresley. I can see no trace of the John born in Lockington from then on.
Your John would actually suit me more. I have Edward of Lockington marrying Bathsheba Carr from Ashby d l Zouch, before moving to Wysall (very speculative!!) and your version would have provided a link.
Would be good to have a digital get together.
Regards,
Bob