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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: ThommoS on Sunday 20 January 19 08:52 GMT (UK)
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Hi, wondering if I can get some assistance on a lookup pls?......
I am trying to find the marriage reg. between William Mason and Mary King both from Tynemouth which I believe occurred in Tynemouth around 1833........reason for that belief being their son, Joseph William King Mason was born there in 1834. I do not know of any older children or whether he was the first so took that date as the latest the marriage could have been.
Aside from his birth record, I have all his certificates which gave me his parents etc and was hoping to work back from their marriage once I had a registration number to apply.
What I do know ...
father : William MASON occupation Grocer of Tynemouth
mother : Mary KING also of Tynemouth ...unfortunately no ages on either
Have found a possible birth/baptism of William MASON as 11 Apr 1803, died Jan 1872 Tynemouth but there is no corresponding Will/Probate I could see on his name and occupation; equally I do not have census access for verification at this stage so was hoping to start with his marriage to KING
Anyway if some kind soul could please point me in the right direction, of offer suggestions as to where I can start, would be most appreciative thanks......Tom
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Aside from his birth record, I have all his certificates which gave me his parents etc and was hoping to work back from their marriage once I had a registration number to apply.
Registration did not start until mid 1837
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Aside from his birth record, I have all his certificates which gave me his parents etc and was hoping to work back from their marriage once I had a registration number to apply.
Sadly you won't find a birth certificate, because Civil Registration didn't begin until 1837.
The best one can hope for is a parish record of a marriage, but this won't give details of the couple's parents. There is a vague possibility it might show the groom's occupation, but this would be unusual.
Can you give more details of Joseph William King Mason please. Do you have him on any censuses with his parents? Do you have a baptism for him? I've had a quick look but can't see anything immediately.
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Previous thread, in which you said William was a sea captain :-\
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=661259.msg5068184#msg5068184
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Just for the record there is no William Mason - Mary King marriage at Tynemouth Parish Church (Christ Church) between 1822 and 1837
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/Tynemouth/ChurchRecords
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Presumably you've got the 1854 marriage certificate between Joseph William King Mason and Sarah Blakey? What information did that give?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=661259.msg5068238#msg5068238
There appears to have been a daughter, Mary Ann Kell Mason, birth registered 3rd q. 1858, Tynemouth 10b, 113. Mother's maiden name Blakey.
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There appears to have been a daughter, Mary Ann Kell Mason, birth registered 3rd q. 1858, Tynemouth 10b, 113. Mother's maiden name Blakey.
Ah.... I see you already know this, from your previous thread.
Edit - there is a tree on Anc. that lists her marriage to Joseph in 1854, her working in North Shields as a servant in 1861 - listed as married - and her marriage to George Scrimshaw in 1865 in the name of Blakey. There is one child listed to the first marriage Mary Ann Kell Mason born 1858 dies 1867 - who is living as grandaughter Mary A Kell in 1861 with Sarah Jane's mother Mary Ann Lough
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Thankyou JenB and Rosie99
Here's what I have for the son Joseph...
I have a baptism (not sure from where as yet) that shows he was baptised 13 May 1834 at Nth Shields.
He married Sarah Jane Blakey on 19 Nov 1854 at Parish Church Tynemouth - I have the Certificate
That states his full name was Joseph William King Mason and was a mariner who resided in Tynemouth. He stated his father was William Mason, a grocer from Tynemouth. Blakey was a minor of Tynemouth whose father was Thomas Blakey, a butcher of Tynemouth.
The witnesses to that marriage were Ebenezer Kell Blakey (assumed her grandfather) and Mary Ann Robinson - Mason signed, Blakey made her mark
Sarah died (believed in child birth) in Dec 1854 - could not find a death entry and there was a child born Dec 1854 (possibly Cuthbert Cook Mason), that child also died Dec so assumed mother and child both died
Mason then migrated to Australia (am yet to trace that bit) but he married the widow Elizabeth Watts (nee Lowe) in July 1867 in Victoria...she was born in Ireland - I have that Marriage certificate also.
On it he stated he was a widower and that his first wife died Dec 1854, they had one child but that child was deceased. He stated his first marriage was at Nth Shields his occupation was a miner and he was 33 years old. He stated his parents were William Mason - a sea captain and his mother Mary Mason nee King. His bride, Elizabeth Watts was a widow, her previous husband had died in May 1865 and from marriage produced 9 children, 3 living and 6 deceased.
Mason had two children with Lowe in Australia born 1867 and 1870.
He died 14 March 1887 at the Prince George Hotel in Melbourne from inflammation of the heart and lung disease - prior his death his occupation was a gate keeper for Victorian Railways.....little bit different to sea captain
As you can see, there are different stories for both his and his parents occupations throughout his life...... but the one constant are the names of his parents....their marriage I was hoping to find...
edit from your latest post while I was typing... I was aware of the other 'daughter' Mary Mason but given he stated he only had the one child and that was deceased along with his wife in Dec 1854 - not sure what to make of it...... .
apologies.....more info.....Sarah Jane Blakey was the daughter of Thomas Blakey and Mary Ann Kell
- her brother was also called Ebenezer Kell Blakey after his grandfather so it was he who witnessed her marriage ... Thomas Blakey died in 1849 and he was the second husband of Kell...she married her first husband Robert Boyd on 25 Dec 1830 - they had one child Elizabeth (1832-1895) - he died 1833...she then married Blakey on 28 Nov 1836 - they had 6 children.... he died 1849 - she then married John Lough in in 1851, they had one child named John Lough also....Lough sen. died in 1862....she passed away 1888 - at 75 years........all up she had 8 children by three husbands (that I know of at least :) ) fecund lot indeed....
Hope that makes sense and sorry to be so long winded...... there are quite a few listings on Ancestry as you may have found, I've not tested their accuracy nor have I ever posted any material to it..... so I cannot attest to the accuracy of the rest........hope that back ground help a bit :).
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The only baptism for a Joseph Mason on 13 May 1834 I can see at the moment was at Houghton-Le-Spring (County Durham) -parents William occ Pitman & Mary - abode Crosfines Row
I will keep looking ;D
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When he married in Australia did he use the full name Joseph William King Mason.
I think you really need to establish from Australian records when he arrived there and any other information they give
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Sarah died (believed in child birth) in Dec 1854 - could not find a death entry and there was a child born Dec 1854 (possibly Cuthbert Cook Mason), that child also died Dec so assumed mother and child both died
This is a very tangled web!
I can't yet see a death for Sarah in 1854, not can I see a birth or a death for Cuthbert Cook Mason in 1854. Can you give more details of the latter please?
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Apologies I am not familiar with the geography in your realm and without looking at Google, have no idea how far the places are from each other that you mention so will have to look them up.....
For his marriage to Blakey he signed his full name Joseph William King Mason and to Lowe he just signed Joseph William Mason..the signatures are quite distinct from the same hand.
Both his wives made their marks.... .both his wives made their marks....
The problem I am having in identifying his arrival in Australia being that he may have worked his passage and then 'jumped ship' - there are many migration entries for William Mason both self funded and assisted passage but if he was crew then no entry would appear as a migration record
It's a pity none show his full name so I cannot be certain other than he arrived between certain years....
Regarding the death mentioned...I could not find any either and relied on the statement he made on his marriage Declaration to Lowe - without concrete proof it is very hard to confirm.....
There are no Victorian records for any siblings by that name in either Births Death or Marriages.
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From the marriage to 'Blakey' could you please give his occupation, his fathers occupation and the witnesses names
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Hi Rosie99
As per previous post......
1854 Marriage - JWKM : a bachelor, occupation Mariner, father ( William Mason) occupation: grocer - all resided Tynemouth
Witnesses: Ebenezer Kell Blakey (bride's brother) and Mary Ann Robinson
Sarah Jane Blakey, a spinster being a minor (less than 21 years) resided in Tynewouth
Bride's father Thomas Blakey was a butcher in Tynemouth
The reason why I have not been able to find any migration record for JWK Mason, he stated he was a mariner, so may have worked passage to Australia...and unfortunately the migration records don't list the full names usually....only given name and far too many listed to confirm one specific without additional information.
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Hi Rosie99
As per previous post......
1854 Marriage - JWKM : a bachelor, occupation Mariner, father ( William Mason) occupation: grocer - all resided Tynemouth
Thank you,
English marriages normally only confirm abode of Bride & Groom.
The 1841 & 1851 census do not show a William Mason occ Grocer that would tie in with the information you have. At least you have confirmed that the signature on the Blakey marriage is similar to the Australian marriage :)
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I have a baptism (not sure from where as yet) that shows he was baptised 13 May 1834 at Nth Shields
The parish church was Christ Church, and I can't see a baptism there on that date for your man :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-676P-J3?i=604&wc=9K59-168%3A13617901%2C30809801%2C31236601&cc=1309819
The only baptism for a Joseph Mason on 13 May 1834 I can see at the moment was at Houghton-Le-Spring (County Durham) -parents William occ Pitman & Mary - abode Crosfines Row
Apologies I am not familiar with the geography in your realm and without looking at Google, have no idea how far the places are from each other that you mention so will have to look them up.....
As the crow flies it's some 14 miles south of Tynemouth, but the River Tyne is in the way!
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Sarah died (believed in child birth) in Dec 1854 - could not find a death entry
I strongly suspect that's because she probably didn't die in 1854!
She is on the 1841 census as aged 3, with her father Thomas Blakey, butcher, mother Elizabeth and siblings in North Shields. Also in the household is someone with the surname Kell. (HO 107 / 825 / 10 / 39 / 25)
In 1851 census aged 13. In 1851 she is living with her mother and step-father John Lough in North Shields (HO 107 / 2409 / 442/ 11)
In 1857 there is the birth of a Mary Ann Kell Mason, birth registered 3rd q. 1858, Tynemouth 10b, 113. Mother's maiden name Blakey.
In 1861 there is a married Sarah Mason, 23, born North Shields, working as a house servant in North Shields in 1861 ( RG 11/ 3837/ 83/ 62)
Also in 1861 a Mary Ann Kell, aged 3 is living with a Mary Ann Lough and her son Ebenezer Blakey in North Shields (RG 9/ 3837/ 60/14)
Finally the death of Mary Ann Lough Mason aged 9 in Tynemouth in 1867.
I appreciate this isn't finding your Joseph's parents, but a bit of unravelling of the story is needed, I think :-\
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Marriage Sarah Blakey and George Scrimshaw, Tynemouth, 3rd quarter 1865.
Marriage 24 June 1865. Sarah's father is Thomas Blakey. Her age is given as 24, but given that the groom is much younger than her she could well have been telling a little fib.
In 1871 Sarah and George Scrimshaw are living in Hartlepool. Her birthplace is North Shields. (RG 10 / 4922/ 24/ 42)
My feeling is that this is very likely the Sarah who married your Joseph, and who he said had died in 1854 :-\
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North Shields library is closed temporarily at the moment due to a heating problem but as soon as this reopens and I can get there I will see if I can look up this marriage. :)
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North Shields library is closed temporarily at the moment due to a heating problem but as soon as this reopens and I can get there I will see if I can look up this marriage. :)
Great, thanks RTL, if you could check Thomas Blakey's occupation in particular that would be good
At least that will (hopefully) clear up if this is the same Sarah who is supposed to have died in 1854!
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Have found a possible birth/baptism of William MASON as 11 Apr 1803, died Jan 1872 Tynemouth but there is no corresponding Will/Probate I could see on his name and occupation; equally I do not have census access for verification at this stage so was hoping to start with his marriage to KING
This William was working in the Colliery and was married to Ann - RG10/5125 f18 p29 in 1871
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Sarah died (believed in child birth) in Dec 1854 - could not find a death entry and there was a child born Dec 1854 (possibly Cuthbert Cook Mason), that child also died Dec so assumed mother and child both died
Just picking up this one. I can only find one birth of a Cuthbert Cook Mason, in 1842. Where did you find the information about one being born in 1854?
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In 1857 there is the birth of a Mary Ann Kell Mason, birth registered 3rd q. 1858, Tynemouth 10b, 113. Mother's maiden name Blakey.
This looks very much Mary Ann's baptism, at St Hilda's South Shields in August 1860. She was born 20th June 1858 (which fits with Mary Ann Kell Mason's birth registration), parents Joseph and Sarah Jane of North Shields. Father's occupation mariner.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XC67-NV?i=540&cc=1309819&cat=1810087
If this is the right baptism it suggests strongly that Joseph was fibbing when he married Elizabeth Watts in 1867.
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Thank you all sooo very much for your efforts sorting out this mess......when I started on this line some years ago I hit the 'proverbial brick wall' and moved on to others all the while collating bits and pieces....thought I'd tackle it again now with some spare time..... :(
I have no idea where the Cuthbert child came from but in my notes he's listed as a possible who cropped up while searching the death registrations in 1854......unfortunately I did not record the link and cannot now find it.
In tracing JWKM's history in Australia I came away with the impression that all was not quite correct from what he officially recorded. Far too many conflicting facts from his Marriage Certificates and aside from him expiring in a pub, his families were never a straight forward search - from what has been uncovered by very helpful people on this list, it is starting to unravel ever so slightly and seems he may have had a few questions to answer on his matrimonial exploits :)
I do appreciate all the time and assistance everyone has generously provided me....
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I’ve got nowhere, so far, with Joseph or his parents I’m afraid.
Hopefully RTL will be able to look at Sarah ‘Blakeys’ 1865 marriage which might clarify if she was really Sarah Mason.
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Also in 1861 a Mary Ann Kell, aged 3 is living with a Mary Ann Lough and her son Ebenezer Blakey in North Shields (RG 9/ 3837/ 60/14)
Finally the death of Mary Ann Lough Mason aged 9 in Tynemouth in 1867.
Am assuming that could be Mary Ann Kell Mason who died aged 9 in 1867 then??
In looking at his children born in Australia, I noted there was also another Mary, this one being Mary Elizabeth Mason (born Aug 1867, near Maryborough Victoria mother LOWE nee WATTS)....she died 9 Dec 1948 at Ouyen Victoria
It seems strange that he would name another child Mary if his other child Mary was still alive in England..(depends on her date of death). If she had died while he was in Australia then notice of that death would have taken many weeks for him to receive it considering he was probably in Australia by then because we already know he was there in July 1867? Gets stranger the more info we uncover on this family.... ???
I could only find the 2 children he had with LOWE, Mary mentioned above and
Adelaide Ann Mason born Mar 1870 near Maryborough Victoria also - she died 15 Sep 1955 at Ararat Victoria.
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It seems strange that he would name another child Mary if his other child Mary was still alive in England..(depends on her date of death). If she had died while he was in Australia then notice of that death would have taken many weeks for him to receive it considering he was probably in Australia by then because we already know he was there in July 1867?
You are assuming that he and Sarah were still in touch and that he was notified of Mary's death!
It's more than likely, I think, that he had completely vanished from Sarah's life some years before, as it seems likely she had married George Scrimshaw in 1865.
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I agree with Jen.
Hopefully the Scrimshaw marriage will confirm that it is the same Sarah
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Hurrah! North Shields library has re-opened! Heating problem sorted! :D
Unfortunately, however, marriage record at this Church is in the old format:
Page 71 Entry 212
'George Scrimshaw of this Parish Bachelor and Sarah Jane Blakey of this Parish Spinster were Married in this Church, by Banns with the Consent of (Blank space appears) this 24th Day of July in the Year One Thousand Right Hundred and Sixty Five By me John (----?) Curate
George signed
Sarah Jane signed with her mark.
In the presence of
Thomas Blaky (sic)
Jane Waugh
Oh dear! A bit disappointing that this old format does not provide more informative information. :-\
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How disappointing. So the only way to check out the father’s occupation would be to purchase the certificate :-\
That is for looking RTL.
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It's very strange, because there is a transcription online which clearly gives the fathers' names, Thomas Blakey and George Scrimshaw :-\ The film number is 1068933, which is for Christ Church Tynemouth Parish registers. So there is also a 'modern' format parish register somewhere or other :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/519962?availability=Family%20History%20Library
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This is strange indeed because the information I provided is all that is there. I have spoken to the staff at the library and this person wonders if what you have seen on-line is due to a transcription error?
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This is strange indeed because the information I provided is all that is there. I have spoken to the staff at the library and this person wonders if what you have seen on-line is due to a transcription error?
I don't think it can be a transcription error. The father's names are definitely given. In addition the ages of Sarah and George are given. There must also have been a 'modern' version of the marriage document, because a copy of this would have to be sent to the GRO.
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The ages showing on one of the transcripts on familysearch also make me think that there is another record of it. I have not come across a reference to 'digital folder' in my research on familysearch so don't know what the source of that would be
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You are both right! Your persistence has paid off Jen! :D I have never known anything like this .. apparently there IS another film showing the modern version!!
Give me a minute or two to type up .. all will be revealed soon!!
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Reference microfilm box number NA244
Page 225 Entry 449
Christ Church
Entry 449
1865 July 24th
George Scrimshaw & Sarah Jane Blakey
His age:22
Her age: 24
Bachelor & Spinster
George was a 'Gardener'
Residence:This Parish (for both)
Fathers:
James (West?) Scrimshaw - Shepherd
Thomas Blakey - Butcher
George signed. Sarah signed with her mark
Witnesses:
Thomas Blaky (sic)
Jane Waugh
By Banns
Even the librarian says she has learned something today - she did not know there were two formats either.
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Fathers:
James (West?) Scrimshaw - Shepherd
Thomas Blakey - Butcher
Thank you for looking at this for us RTL - Jen will be pleased with Thomas's occupation ;D
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You are welcome Rosie! So glad to have been able to find this. I did anticipate that Jen would be right in her deducements regarding Sarah and it would seem that once again she has been proved right! :D
I am glad Jen persisted with this - I wonder why this Church used two formats .. so strange. Oh well, the librarian and I have both learned something new today.
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That's good news, thanks for double-checking! Perhaps the Vicar of Christ Church was a bit old-fashioned and also liked to keep a register the 'old way' :-\
Page 225 Entry 449
Christ Church
Entry 449
1853 July 24th
I think you meant 1865?
I think we could agree that this Sarah Jane Blakey has to be the same person as married Joseph Mason in 1854. The coincidence of a father called Thomas who was a butcher is too much to ignore. Additionally in the 1871 census her birthplace is given as North Shields.
So, Joseph seems to have been lying when he married in Australia. Far from dying in 1854 his wife was still alive in 1865. And he had had a child with her in 1858 (Mary Ann Kell Mason) who died in 1867.
This isn't getting any closer to finding who Joseph's parents were, but it's clear he was prepared to tell untruths about his first wife.....
Sarah was telling porkies as well, since she called herself a spinster when she wasn't.
Additionally, of course, both marriages were bigamous.
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You are welcome Jen. Perhaps the Vicar may have been old fashioned and was reluctant to part with the old way of doing things. I prefer the modern version .. the old version revealed practically nothing in the way of evidence.
Yes, this is what it should say 1865 I will try to alter my post to correct this.. yes it would seem they were both telling porkies and committed bigamy.
Added: There I have changed the Year to show correct one of 1865. I don't know if it was me or Kindle responsible for that blip. :-[
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My goodness - what a truly amazing find......their Australian descendants will be shocked when I present this to them later on but then knowing some would probably suggest it par for the course with their family ;D
I can't thank each of you enough for taking it on board and working it out....I really do feel quite humbled by your efforts, wow, what can I say other than a big 'thank you - again' - it would have remained hidden without your determination, no doubt that's what they had hoped.....
So I take it, for whatever reason he departed Northumberland assumed around early 1860's leaving his wife and child - being a mariner would have been easy enough, he eventually came to Australia, married Lowe in 1867 starting another life there.....Sarah remained in Tynemouth, did the same thing, married Scrimshaw in 1865 - both bigamists from what we see......wonder what role her father Thomas Blakey the butcher; had in having given her away twice and whether Joseph's father William, knew his daughter in law remarried....maybe he was deceased by then?
Some years back when I hit this brick wall - most of my research had been on William Mason as a ships captain based on what his son had said...that proved a dead end....it turned out correct that his father in law was indeed a butcher as stated at his first marriage - interestingly there does not appear any of Joseph relatives signed as witnesses (not sure who second witness Mary Ann Robinson was?) to that first marriage. On it, Joseph stated his father was grocer so I'd be pretty confident in that - more so than a sea captain at least :)
We are slowly getting there.........but what a ride so far ;D
Edit.....
Having read the ages of Sarah from the two certificates....think that might be another 'porkie'...as JenB and RTL so eloquently put :
Marriage on 19 Nov 1854 - states she was a minor, no age given
Marriage on 24 Jul 1865 - states she was 24
There is a reference on England Select Births and Christenings to Sarah Jane Blakey, born 5 Sep 1837 and Christened 15 Oct 1837...makes her 17 years at first marriage and therefor a minor yet when she married Scrimshaw she was 28......perhaps grounds for a breach of contract too haha?
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Hi Thommo, thanks are mainly due to River Tyne Lass who went to the library and did the Sarah Blakey/Scrimshaw marriage lookup which revealed the name of Sarah's father!
I think Sarah 'massaged' her age on the second marriage cert perhaps because she was marrying a younger man. We've seen quite a few examples of this on Rootschat.
We are no further forward with Joseph's parentage, though. It's a bit of a mystery.
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.wonder what role her father Thomas Blakey the butcher; had in having given her away twice
You said earlier that Thomas the butcher had died in 1849 :-\
Thomas Blakey died in 1849 and he was the second husband of Kell...
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.wonder what role her father Thomas Blakey the butcher; had in having given her away twice
You said earlier that Thomas the butcher had died in 1849 :-\
Thomas Blakey died in 1849 and he was the second husband of Kell...
Yes, he did die in 1849, the age doesn't tie with the 1841 census, but it has to be him. His residence was Coulson's Bank, Clive Street, and the family were at Clive Street in 1841.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DCVQ-X5G?i=255&wc=9K5M-PTP%3A13617901%2C30809801%2C1077226105&cc=1309819
The margin note shows he died of cholera, and there was evidently an epidemic at North Shields at this time. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DCVQ-F9B?i=223&wc=9K5M-PTP%3A13617901%2C30809801%2C1077226105&cc=1309819
There was also an announcement of his death in the Newcastle Journal, 8th September 1849. 'In North Shields.....on the 2d instant.....aged 45, Mr Thos Blakey, butcher'
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Thankyou JenB....... will add the cause and the confirmation you show to his death...I did not have all that....mere references only but it's good to sort him out....really appreciated.
I could not find any siblings for Joseph or other children for William and Mary (in Victoria at least) and when I had access to the UK Census some years ago, my research was focused on William being a sea captain, not a grocer.
To your knowledge, do the Mason family (William, Mary and Joseph) appear along side the Blakey's in any regional Census for that period?...they may have been neighbours.....grocer and a butcher would suggest they may have had a business relationship aside from their bigamous children's :) ?
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He married Sarah Jane Blakey on 19 Nov 1854 at Parish Church Tynemouth - I have the Certificate
That states his full name was Joseph William King Mason and was a mariner who resided in Tynemouth. He stated his father was William Mason, a grocer from Tynemouth. Blakey was a minor of Tynemouth whose father was Thomas Blakey, a butcher of Tynemouth.
Hi ThommoS, does the marriage certificate actually state that William Mason was a grocer from Tynemouth? Usually an English marriage certificate simply states the occupation of the father not where he was living. Additionally it only states where the groom was living at the time of the marriage, not where his permanent residence was. These can often be two totally different places.
Mason then migrated to Australia (am yet to trace that bit) but he married the widow Elizabeth Watts (nee Lowe) in July 1867 in Victoria...she was born in Ireland - I have that Marriage certificate also.
On it he stated he was a widower and that his first wife died Dec 1854, they had one child but that child was deceased. He stated his first marriage was at Nth Shields his occupation was a miner and he was 33 years old. He stated his parents were William Mason - a sea captain and his mother Mary Mason nee King. His bride, Elizabeth Watts was a widow, her previous husband had died in May 1865 and from marriage produced 9 children, 3 living and 6 deceased.
Does Joseph state anywhere on his 1867 marriage certificate that he was actually born in North Shields?
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I think there can be little doubt that these two Sarah's will have been the same person.
However, I have been puzzling over this one. On the face of it, this seems quite an audacious act of Sarah's to have married in the same Church as a spinster and by Banns. What a risk to take! Surely a lot of people would have been familiar with the butcher's daughter and known about previous marriage? She would have risked prison and hard labour.
However, I am now wondering if there could be more to all this. Could the first marriage have been annulled for some reason? I get the impression that first husband Joseph may have been a bit of a suspicious character, by his stories and different versions of things.
I am also wondering if Joseph may have originally got to Australia by being transported for some reason? Transportation may have taken place from Newcastle upon Tyne. Perhaps, Joseph served his time and it may have been easier to remain in Australia and start afresh as a 'widower'. Perhaps for some reason, he may have had no chance with getting back with Sarah even if he was able to return to the North East of England.
I know this is all just speculation but I can't help thinking that there might be a bit more to this story than first meets the eye.
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Also, just curious regarding post 11. ThommoS, you have let us know that you have the marriage certificates and that the signatures are distinct and by the same hand.
I used to think that the signatures were the original ones on marriage certificates but then someone on here called TickettyBoo explained to me via posts that these are not. She said in so many words that it would be too time consuming for the person copying out the certificates to try to copy the original signatures so what we see is not likely to even be an attempt at copying. So therefore, we will only likely see the original handwriting on the Parish Register.
Is this what you mean? That you have a photocopy of the parish register entries? Or could it have been in this particular case the person who copied the entry did actually make an attempt at copying the entry. If you could take a photo of the signatures and put on here the next time I can get to the library I will definitely be able to confirm through the parish register from the first marriage if signature appears to be the same.
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May be your Joseph - just for interest ;D
North & South Shields Gazette and Northumberland and Durham Advertiser - 24 May 1850
Tynemouth Petty Sessions
Joseph Mason was charged by Mr Avery with refusing to perform his Lawful Employment. Defendant was an apprentice onboard a vessel belonging to Mr Avery and that morning had refused to work. The vessel had sailed in the morning tide without him. He was committed for 6 weeks.
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To your knowledge, do the Mason family (William, Mary and Joseph) appear along side the Blakey's in any regional Census for that period?...they may have been neighbours.....grocer and a butcher would suggest they may have had a business relationship aside from their bigamous children's :) ?
I can find no family matching this description in Tynemouth in 1841. I think Rosie looked for this earlier in the thread.
Please bear in mind that William might not have been resident in Tynemouth. As I said earlier, all the marriage cert. of 1854 will have shown was that he was a grocer, not where he was living (unless you have info. on the marriage certificate which shows otherwise reply# 45). There is also always the possibility that he was deceased by the time of the marriage.
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To your knowledge, do the Mason family (William, Mary and Joseph) appear along side the Blakey's in any regional Census for that period?...they may have been neighbours.....grocer and a butcher would suggest they may have had a business relationship aside from their bigamous children's :) ?
I can find no family matching this description in Tynemouth in 1841. I think Rosie looked for this earlier in the thread.
Please bear in mind that William might not have been resident in Tynemouth. As I said earlier, all the marriage cert. of 1854 will have shown was that he was a grocer, not where he was living (unless you have info. on the marriage certificate which shows otherwise). There is also always the possibility that he was deceased by the time of the marriage.
Or perhaps once again he is telling 'Porkies' and he was illegitimate ::)
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For some reason Rootschat has been down this morning and not able to access the posts - as with apologies for the time difference - makes it a bit haphazard in replying, but systems seems to be OK now so where to start on your questions of me........?. ;D
1. Joseph stated on his 1867 certificate he was born in North Shields
2. The 1854 Entry of Marriage stated Joseph resided in Tynemouth at time of marriage - his father William Mason was Grocer - you are correct JenB, it does not say where, that was my assumption
3. I certainly agree with you RTL - I think we are only seeing part of the story so far.....she was risking an awful lot and it just doesn't make sense given same church, same witness etc....
4. Will try and post the signatures merged together from the Certificates in a separate reply as having issues appending to this one.......normally I just cut and pasted to a post but for some reason I cannot with this reply.....I'll nut it out and post separately...
edit...... the attachments app to my posts does not appear to be working to allow me to link a photo....it's not opening the "browse" field to select an attachment as with the copy/paste function also not working inside a post...will keep trying all the same..
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For some reason I cannot upload any files to this thread and in subsequent posts as the attach link is not active for me - no idea why?..
Anyway I have uploaded a merged file of both marriage certificates for Joseph Mason on the Handwriting, Deciphering and Recognition Forum - that worked just fine - that post is listed under Test Post - Joseph Mason marriage Certificates.......
I placed both signatures together in the one jpg file......
Hopefully that adds more light to this mystery ???
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For some reason I cannot upload any files to this thread and in subsequent posts as the attach link is not active for me - no idea why?..
You cannot upload images to the 'look up' boards :)
For some reason Rootschat has been down this morning and not able to access the posts - as with apologies for the time difference - makes it a bit haphazard in replying, but systems seems to be
Probably Trystan doing whatever he has to do overnight while the UK is sleeping ;D
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Here is a link to the signatures posting
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=807077.msg6660871
Thommo, I think that you have been misled by the 1854 certificate. It is clear from the snip you've posted that, as Gadget has observed on that thread, this is a handwritten copy. The handwriting on the snip you've posted is all the same. Therefore, sadly, there is no valid comparison to be made between these two certificates, it's coincidence that the writing is so similar. The only way to make a comparison would be, to take up RTL's offer for her to take a look at the original 1854 marriage record on microfilm at North Shields library.
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I am at the library and will try to locate the earlier marriage and check the original signature. Will be posting again soon. :)
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I am at the library and will try to locate the earlier marriage and check the original signature. Will be posting again soon. :)
Are you able to get a picture of it please :-\
Rosie
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I am at the library
My goodness, you move like greased lightening! Are you at Newcastle Library or North Shields?
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Yes, I have just asked for permission at the local studies and have been told I take a photo of that small part and post. Give me ten minutes or so as I am writing this on my Kindle and will need to transfer to a computer to post. Back soon.
Added: I do move like greased lightning sometimes - it would be good to get to the bottom of this one. ;D I am at North Shields library Jen.
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Take 2......
Must be the 40+c heat in Victoria causing all these pooter at moment...will try typing again. yes, I read through the Q and A to this forum and found that out after I posted....I thought as much but am grateful there is still an option to upload available given some of the bandwidth requirements
Thank you all for your help and suggestions.....I certainly don't want people to go out of their way for this....
You may be correct with the handwritten certificates but to me, there's a striking resemblance on the cursive script for the 'M' and the 's' in Mason....similarly with the 'J'....then again it may be that's the way students were taught quill and ink in those days....I am in the process of trying to obtain other written resources from JWKM (hopefully it's he?) at the Victorian Registries to check his writing but this week their on-line systems have been off line...no estimate of when they will return...no doubt their AC system cannot handle the heat haha
Once again, I really do appreciate all the help and assistance you all provide - it has opened up other avenues I could not have explored prior and hopefully it will lead us onto his parents and any other family.
Makes you wonder what we will find on his parents given his history so far ::)
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The signature of the original that RTL has now posted on the other thread looks the same as the entry in the details column. Sarah's signature, next to her marke is in a different hand :-\
add - had another look - it is difficult as we're really needing the 3 signatures together. There are slight differetces :-\
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Hi ThommoS,
Just to add to your records, I have discovered the daughter Mary Ann Lough Mason was buried at Preston Cemetery in North Shields
Entry: 2277
'daughter of Joseph Mason, Mariner
Nine years
Death occurred: Middle Street
Burial: Twenty First October 1867
Ceremony by: James Elphinstone, Town Missionary
Buried Unconsecrated Ground: 4562
Township of North Shields'
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Mad idea, sorry!
Is there any possibility that he may have been Irish?
There is a marriage at St Andrew Dublin, 30 November 1827 (not 30 January as stated on FindMyPast and ancestry!)
Gulielmum Mason + Mariannam King
https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000633482#page/65/mode/1up
No idea if Mr Mason was a grocer!
A baptism at same place, 21 May 1830
Josephum Mason
https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000633483#page/236/mode/1up
There are a few entries in the records of merchant seamen in BT113 for Joseph Mason born Dublin.
Joseph Mason, born 10 Feb 1830
Apprentice
First went to sea as a boy in 1845
resides Dublin
ticket issued at Dublin, 12 January 1847
also
Joseph Mason, born Dublin 16 Feb(?) 1832
went to sea as an apprentice in 1848
resides at Dublin
ticket issued at Shields, poss says 25 Nov 1848
Both of those had grey eyes!
EDIT
There is a death of a Joseph Mason in Dublin North in 1867, age 37 :-\
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Mad idea, sorry!
Your ideas are not normally mad John :)
For what it's worth I think it looks promising ???
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There are some things for it, some against. Religion may not tie in.
Of course it wont be the right Joseph if it is the son of William and Mary who died in 1867.
JWK Mason is pretty elusive. If he was a mariner, and maybe that apprentice in the newspaper, you would think that he might feature in the records somewhere.
John
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Mad idea, sorry!
Is there any possibility that he may have been Irish?
There is a marriage at St Andrew Dublin, 30 November 1827 (not 30 January as stated on FindMyPast and ancestry!)
Gulielmum Mason + Mariannam King
https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000633482#page/65/mode/1up
I don’t think it’s mad at all!
I had found the mariner Joseph Mason you refer to yesterday, to but hadn’t made the interesting link back to parents called William and Mary King.
It’s certainly worth thinking about ;D
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This is getting to be quite a long thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned but a William Mason married a Mary King - St Nicholas, Yarmouth 27 March 1798. Perhaps Joseph could have been a late born son. I think he might have been born anywhere. ???
Added: No forget that, no sign of any such son to them.
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RTL - thank you for your post 61 re burial of Mary Ann Lough Mason......
That's interesting....some years back JenB found a Christening for a Mary Ann Kell Mason b. registered 3rd Quarter 1858 - Tynemouth 10b. 113...Mothers maiden name Blakey ---- looks like this is a separate child then....the widow Mary Blakey (nee Kell) married John Lough 26 Jan 1851 at St Hilda's South Shields (sourced from England Select marriages)
so wondering if the burial you found are two separate children - doubtful.... but who knows???? Thanks for that - will add to the ever grown database on them ;D
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Thanks jonw65....
I think given all the info Joseph Mason has supplied he clearly states he was born in Northumberland - he's never shied from that...I think the religion factor also comes into play against your suggestion...I am of the belief that his first Marriage registration is the 'more truthful' whatever that means ??? so far most of those details have been found correct - especially his bride's family.
Early on I did look extensively at the Sea captain link as he calls his father on the second marriage.....found numerous that fit the bill both living and renting premises locally but there was the problem of linking with William and Mary, his parents....from the census info - when I had access to it.
The more recent info to me (being his first marriage) caused me to change course and try find any grocers on that census - if so working from that.....
As I previously mentioned I am endeavouring to access more 'official' documents on a Joseph Mason in Victoria...it may not be the correct Joseph, a long shot but worth a try to help sort this out.
RTL...... the birth you suggested is getting a bit long but who knows.....? in my earlier research of the UK Master and Mates Registrations and census I found a William Mason, master, born Tynemouth 11 Apr 1803 and also a reference from Customs House Masters Newcastle Upon Tyne on 22 Jul 1851 showing him at 48.... that chap died Jan 1872....... now given that research was all based on William being a Sea Captain - it's now a moot point - but does go to show there are many possibilities for Sea Captains - just a pity the Grocers did not have a registered Guild similar - would have been easier to find William then :)
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RTL - thank you for your post 61 re burial of Mary Ann Lough Mason......
That's interesting....some years back JenB found a Christening for a Mary Ann Kell Mason b. registered 3rd Quarter 1858 - Tynemouth 10b. 113...Mothers maiden name Blakey ---- looks like this is a separate child then....the widow Mary Blakey (nee Kell) married John Lough 26 Jan 1851 at St Hilda's South Shields (sourced from England Select marriages)
so wondering if the burial you found are two separate children - doubtful.... but who knows???? Thanks for that - will add to the ever grown database on them ;D
Thommo, I am happy to be proved wrong, but personally I think this is the same child. Mary Ann Kell Mason was born in 1858. Mother's maiden name Blakey, so she is surely the child of Joseph and Sarah Jane.
The child buried as Mary Ann Lough Mason (said on the burial register to be the child of Joseph Mason) is nine years old, i.e. born 1858. The address was Middle Street, which was immediately adjacent to North Street, where the child had been living in 1861.
I can find no sign of Mary Ann in the 1871 census.
It would be interesting to see who registered the death? It's intriguing that although it seems that Joseph was apparently now in Australia and Sarah had re-married, the child was specifically referred to in the burial register as Joseph's daughter.
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I think given all the info Joseph Mason has supplied he clearly states he was born in Northumberland - he's never shied from that...
I think I'm right in saying that the only mention you've made of his birth in Northumberland is his second marriage certificate (sorry if I'm wrong)? What other information do you have that back this up?
Personally unless I can see incontrovertible evidence that someone was born in a certain place I always try to keep an open mind. There have been many examples here on Rootschat of people saying they were born somewhere, when they were born somewhere else!
By the way, the Dublin-born Joseph Mason mentioned by John yesterday was sailing out of North Shields in 1853 and 1854.
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I have thought of something I could look into but this might come to nothing so don't build hopes up too much.
When I was at Newcastle library a little while back I saw a volume of 'stray' marriages. I am not 100% certain but I think these were for Christ Church. I can't remember what date range is covered.
I am now on a run of nightshifts and am travelling home on the bus but when I can next get to the Newcastle library I will check out the volume and see if William and Mary might be in.
I believe stray marriages are when one of both partners are from another parish. I wonder if such marriages may have been kept separate from the ordinary parish ones?
ThommoS this is just to let you know that we might still have hope of locating Joseph's parents. I think it is at least worth a try.
Or if anyone else can get there before I can - I saw this volume on the bookshelves where the memorial inscriptions volumes are kept in the local studies department.
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I am quite tired now and have just noticed your posts before mine Jen
I agree Jen - I tend to think the Mary in burial record was the daughter of Joseph and Sarah Jane.
From what you have noticed Jen it sounds like John could well be on to something with the Dublin born Joseph. I think we do need to keep an open mind regarding possibilities at the moment.
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I believe stray marriages are when one of both partners are from another parish. I wonder if such marriages may have been kept separate from the ordinary parish ones?
They should appear in the marriage register as normal. It may just be an index for 'stray marriages'
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I believe stray marriages are when one of both partners are from another parish. I wonder if such marriages may have been kept separate from the ordinary parish ones?
They should appear in the marriage register as normal. It may just be an index for 'stray marriages'
As Rosie says, the marriage would appear in the parish register with all the other marriages. There was no King/Mason marriage at Christ Church according to the index on Genuki (reply#4).
‘Stray’ indexes were compiled much later by family historians.
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Oh dear .. that knocks that idea out the window then.
I did see reply 4 but had been hoping the stray marriages might have appeared in a different register to the parish ones.
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Unfortunately, however, marriage record at this Church is in the old format:
Page 71 Entry 212
'George Scrimshaw of this Parish Bachelor and Sarah Jane Blakey of this Parish Spinster were Married in this Church, by Banns with the Consent of (Blank space appears) this 24th Day of July in the Year One Thousand Right Hundred and Sixty Five By me John (----?) Curate
George signed
Sarah Jane signed with her mark.
In the presence of
Thomas Blaky (sic)
Jane Waugh
Does this mean that the Joseph Mason and Sarah Blakey marriage was also recorded in two formats?
On the LDS possibly
Christ Church Tynemouth
Marriages, 1850-1868
Film 1068930
Items 1-6
DGS 4629466
FamilySearch have both marriages - where they have indexed them without father's names - with film number 1068930 or digital number 004629466
So there could be yet another signature of JWK Mason knocking about (not that it's needed!)
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JenB - re your post 70.
The Victorian Marriage Certificate has a separate column headed Birthplace....in that box corresponding to Joseph's entry, it states "N Shields, Northumberland' as his POB - it appears the same hand as the Presbyterian Minister Rvd. Cutcham (???) who married them. One would assume the Minister asked him where he was born.........along with his current marital status haha
Being Presbyterian would also to my mind, lessen the chances of him being Irish...but then his new wife was Irish - who knows?
I did entertain the possibility some time back he may have been illegitimate (did the Bastardry Bonds continue in the 1830's and in that county)?....an online search I did some years ago did not show any accurate listing from what I could access anyway....wasn't much....you would think if he was, then there would be a documentary trail leading to him there, previous bonds I have traced have all been well documented, granted somewhat earlier and in different counties, ......but never the less, there is always a documentary trail to follow but not here!
So the other possibility being born outside the parish could account for any lack of information on his parents also, he claimed to be a Northumbrian (is that correct ????) despite documentary proof (Marriage certs) showing his 'heritage' - but with all the prevarications we've found so far tends to make me agree with you - there's little that is not incontrovertible with Joseph......sorry about all the double negatives... ::)..
The documents I sought for him in Victoria did not offer any information at all, just more questions....this chap died intestate and no parents were known. Equally no Inquest was held on his death.......I'm still not 100% sure I have the correct chaps' death due to lack of any corroborative documentation here (ie the 1887 death) - continuing to look at that as well....
Yes, JenB - I do tend to agree that we are looking at the same child Mary and am also confused given the bigamous marriages why the child was referred to Joseph the father, would suggest they still had contact or there were perhaps grand parents aware of the situation....most likely they thought Joseph was deceased by then which would be an 'out' for charges of bigamy at least........who knows...am just thinking out loud......?
.......it's as if he did not want to be found....perhaps his parents are also porkies then....??
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You will likely find that the child was recorded as Josephs simply because she was still known as Mrs Joseph MASON.... when the child was born ...
Victoria's bdm records are perhaps the most informative .... as good as the Scottish ones...
The clergy asked very detailed questions for marriages ... he would need to give a date of death for a first wife, plus details of children of earlier marriages ... easier to tell a porkie than find the full answers to tricky questions ..
JM
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I think given all the info Joseph Mason has supplied he clearly states he was born in Northumberland - he's never shied from that...
I'm still a bit confused here, as you say 'all the info Joseph Mason has supplied....he's never shied from that....' which to me implied that you had several different sources of information claiming his birthplace was Northumberland.
But the only one you've quoted is the 1867 marriage cert.
JenB - re your post 70.
The Victorian Marriage Certificate has a separate column headed Birthplace....in that box corresponding to Joseph's entry, it states "N Shields, Northumberland' as his POB - it appears the same hand as the Presbyterian Minister Rvd. Cutcham (???) who married them. One would assume the Minister asked him where he was born.........along with his current marital status haha
Can you clarify please? What other sources do you have?
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Joseph states he was born in North Shields c183? - parents William Mason & Mary King. Based on information given on his Australian marriage certificate.
In 1854 he married in Tynemouth.
Where is he in 1841, There is no Joseph Mason that I can see in The Tynemouth registration district which covers North Shields & Tynemouth.
Where are his parents as they should also be in that area in 1841. I would also expect to find their deaths in that area.
I would not discount that place of birth on his marriage certificate as another lie. ::)
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There are so many postings on this thread now that I've taken the liberty of doing a summary of the various relevant facts in chronological order. Please correct me if I've omitted any relevant fact or made any errors.
24th July 1854, Sarah Jane Blakey, a minor, father Thomas a butcher, married Joseph William King Mason, a mariner, father William a grocer, Christ Church North Shields.
20th June 1858, daughter Mary Ann Kell Mason born (date from baptism record). Birth registration (3rd q. 1858) shows mother’s maiden surname was Blakey.
8th August 1860 Mary Ann Mason baptised at St Hilda’s South Shields. Parents Sarah Jane and Joseph, a mariner.
(I haven’t found any other Mason/Blakey births between 1854 and 1864)
1861 census:
Mary Ann Kell with her grandmother Mary Ann Lough (nee Kell) and uncle Ebenezer Blakey in North Shields.
Sarah Mason is a house servant in North Shields.
24 July 1865 Sarah Jane Blakey, aged 24, spinster, father Thomas a butcher, married George Scrimshaw aged 22 at Christ Church North Shields.
July 1867, William Joseph Mason married Elizabeth Watts in Victoria Australia. He stated that he was a widower, aged 33, born in North Shields. That he had married in North Shields in 1854, that his first wife died in 1854, that they had had one child who was deceased. His occupation was a miner. His father, William Mason was a Sea Captain, and and his mother was Mary King.
1867, 3rd q. death of Mary Ann Lough Mason, Tynemouth RD. Burial record, 1st October 1867, shows that she was the daughter of Joseph Mason, mariner.
1871 census
George Scrimshaw, aged 26 and Sarah J., aged 29 and born North Shields are living in West Hartlepool.
Other bits & pieces: we haven’t found suitable baptism of a Joseph (William King) Mason in Tynemouth. We haven’t found a suitable marriage of a William Mason and a Mary King in Northumberland. We haven’t found any family unit on the 1841 or 1851 censuses that match.
There is a marriage of a William Mason and a Mary King in Dublin in 1827 (reply #62), and the birth of a Joseph possibly to this couple in 1830.
A Joseph Mason, a Dublin-born mariner, 1830, was sailing out of Shields in the early-mid 1850’s
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Great summary, JenB.
The fact that there are no more apparent children after Mary Ann suggests to me that Joseph and Sarah may have parted company before or around the time of Mary Ann's birth (suggests b/c there was always the possibility of miscarriages or stillbirths). So I was wondering about Sarah having Joseph declared deceased after 7 years (Someone may correct me but I think that was the legal time?), if in fact he did disappear, in order to marry again? This should give her a legal marriage, then?
But then, Sarah did marry as a spinster rather than a widow.
Joseph would not necessarily have been present at Mary Ann's baptism. He must have lied about her death, as he did Sarah's, b/c she appears to have died after his 2nd marriage took place.
Anyway, food for thought.
PB
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It would be good to know if Thommo has anything to add to Jen's summary :)
Also,
JenB - re your post 70.
The Victorian Marriage Certificate has a separate column headed Birthplace....in that box corresponding to Joseph's entry, it states "N Shields, Northumberland' as his POB - it appears the same hand as the Presbyterian Minister Rvd. Cutcham (???) who married them. One would assume the Minister asked him where he was born.........along with his current marital status haha
Can you clarify please? What other sources do you have?
[/quote]
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Yes, I agree it would be good to know if there is anything else to add. That was a great idea of Jen's to put everything into one post for easy reference. :)
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Hi jonw65,
Re: post 76. I have now managed to get back to the library and have asked and received permission to take yet another photo of the signature - this time from the old style format. It is a bit faint - but hopefully will show more evidence of Joseph's signature. I will also be posting a couple of separate close ups. I don't know if this might help - but it might.
Great that you thought of this Jon - wish I had thought of this myself.
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First two names closer up (hopefully) ..
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Second two names ..
By the way, if at some point it emerges that the couple may have had siblings who married at Tynemouth and if Joseph may have been a witness .. potentially there may be even more evidence of signature.
ThommoS, this is a very interesting thread which has been attracting a lot of interest.
Hopefully, you will return soon after perusing all your document evidence and will let us know if there is or there is not more documentary evidence besides the Victoria marriage certificate to support the idea that Joseph may have been born in North Shields. This really might be of help to those of us who would like to help you. :)
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Just playing with the images - they look to me as though they are both written by the same person, the clergy. Any thoughts :-\
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Hi
RTL, I am amazed that you looked that up. Your willingness to help people on Rootschat with look ups is quite wonderful, and much appreciated by all those who follow the threads on here.
Just playing with the images - they look to me as though they are both written by the same person, the clergy. Any thoughts :-\
Oh! I hope not!
I have seen old marriage registers run on past 1837, with original signatures. I have on occasion called the wrong register up myself!
To do it even into the 1860's, no not that late before. Perhaps they didn't ask the parties to sign it :-\
John
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I have just rescued from the recycling bin the one I posted before ;D I have added it to my post
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Thank you Jon for such a lovely comment - that has really made my day! :)
Thanks too Rosie for getting signatures together ..
I am wondering if something fishy might be going on with this Sarah, not sure but see next post.
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Christ Church Marriage
Entry 33
1859 April 25th
James Ritchie & Sarah Blakey
Age: Both 'full'
Bachelor
Spinster - this crossed out and Widow placed underneath
James - a Mariner
Both This Parish
Fathers:
James Ritchie - Sadler
John (Branson?) - Mariner
Witnesses: William Robinson & Jane Waugh
All signed except Sarah who used her mark.
By Banns
I know she has a different Father recorded but same witness Jane Waugh. Also seems to be confusion 're status. Might this be original Sarah and could she be a serial bride?
Added: No Jane signed some other marriages so may have been Church worker.
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I can see this one .. may as well add this but Joseph not a witness. Thomas likely Sarah's brother:
Christ Church
Entry 416
1863 April 4th
Thomas Blakey & Eliza Snowdon
His age 22
Her age 21
Bachelor & Spinster
Engine Driver
Both: This Parish
Fathers:
Thomas Blakey - Butcher
William Snowdon - Shoemaker
Witnesses: Thomas Thompson & (Audrey?) Ann (Elliot?)
All signed
By Banns
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Christ Church Marriage
Entry 33
1859 April 25th
James Ritchie & Sarah Blakey
Age: Both 'full'
Bachelor
Spinster - this crossed out and Widow placed underneath
Might this be original Sarah and could she be a serial bride
Sarah was calling herself Sarah Mason in the 1861 census :-\
I can see a 31 year old James Ritchie, mariner + wife Sarah, aged 46 in the 1861 census, living in Hartlepool. Sarah's birthplace is Hartlepool. They are in South Shields in 1871. At the moment I can't trace this Sarah back before the 1861 census.
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Thankyou all for your posts and suggestions....do have an excuse for not posting as regular of late - summer heat in Australia unfortunately brings bush fires and some have been too close indeed....priorities are put into perspective on such occasions..... ::).....
Anyway here's a rather long winded reply to some questions - firstly I must thank others for running with this - it is truly inspiring and I have nothing other than admiration for you work....well done!
My belief of he being born in Northumberland primarily stems from earlier research coupled with comments from his descendants (when I started researching for them) who believed so from what they had been told by their grand parents etc...but then they were not aware of Blakey!
I have also seen photographs (poor quality and quite flimsy) believed to have been of Joseph that were endorsed with faded hand writing on the back stating "Joseph M North'lnd" - it was not known who wrote it nor what it signified - unfortunately I did not take copies when shown some years ago.....I have since been informed the person who had them is deceased so I cannot access them again
When I had the chance I have been chasing up the children born in Australia from the marriage of LOWE and MASON...in the hope they may shed some more light ....early documentation in Victoria often shows the place of birth of the person..such as Victorian marriage, births and death registrations...sometime there is a Will which can be access as with probate....so its these I have been chasing up...
Along with his arrival in Australia, I am still yet to find any proof positive deaths for either Joseph or Elizabeth - but here's what I have so far....
Mary Mason, was born on the 18th June 1867 at Majorca in Vic....(Joseph and Elizabeth were married on 24 July 1867)....in the 'father' column I cannot decipher the word written in it (possible "not stated") but definitely not a name and definitely not Joseph Mason yet he was in attendance at her birth because he signed his name as the informant, a father and residing in Majorca (in Victoria) ...... in that order.....whether he was 'her father' not stated and he definitely did not complete the father column....Elizabeth stated she was the mother and born in Kings Country Ireland, was 33 years old.......
Interestingly if he was her father then he would have had to state his country of birth and age in the father column...that was a legal requirement on Birth Registrations then.....he did not....another omission perhaps???
Mary died in December 1948, her son who completed the Death Registration stated Joseph Mason was her father (unfortunate he did not state where he was from) and he did not know who her mother was (which would make her his grand mother) so he wrote 'unknown'...indicating Elizabeth may have died (moved on?) before the informant knew of her but equally his mother never told him of his grand mother, but he did know his grand father was Joseph as filled that in.....strange?
Mary spent a great part of her life residing in Ararat
The other child Adelaide Ann Mason was born in 1870 (yet to obtain her certificate) - died in Sep 1955 in Ararat and spent most of her life there...on her registrations (birth and death) both her parents were listed as Joseph Mason and Elizabeth Lowe - unfortunately no other details listed for them......so her descendants knew of Joseph and Elizabeth
The common factor that I had to work from this family as told to me was a connection to the town of Ararat in Victoria...most of them lived and died there allegedly including Joseph and Elizabeth.
The only Joseph Mason who died and had a connection to Ararat (through Probate records I accessed did not list his POB only POD and occupation) died in 1887 at a hotel in Melbourne - Probate listed him as a Gatekeeper at Ararat - there was the only connection) .... I have not been able to access his Will as only available in Melbourne with physical lookup, not online.
This is where it gets ever stranger.....his Death registration was filled in by the owner of the hotel, chap named Heffernan, the Publican and also the Informant: according to he, this Joseph Mason did not have any family, was born in the USA and stated Joseph had lived in Victoria for 20 years.....that would have made his arrival about 1867.
I could not find any family death notices, funeral arrangements or other aside from a notice in a regional newspaper as to the Death of Joseph Mason at a Hotel aged 55, no family was mentioned...this Joseph was subsequently buried in Melbourne New Cemetery not Ararat..(Ararat and Melbourne are approximately 200 kms from each other) - his family lived in Ararat, he worked there so why was he buried in Melbourne??
Sorry to be so long winded....will keep looking over here and see if we can find out what happened to him and his wife Elizabeth....
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Hello again Thommo :)
My belief of he being born in Northumberland primarily stems from earlier research coupled with comments from his descendants (when I started researching for them) who believed so from what they had been told by their grand parents etc...but then they were not aware of Blakey!
So am I correct in saying that the only actual Joseph Mason document you have which refers to a birth in Northumberland is the 1867 marriage certificate?
It is difficult for us to appreciate what it must be like for you in such close proximity to bush fires. Currently the temperature here in Northumberland is -4C.
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It is difficult for us to appreciate what it must be like for you in such close proximity to bush fires.
Stay safe!
There is an administration for Joseph Mason died Victoria 1887
Which you can see, starting here, if you are logged in as a free member
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D1W7-QR6?i=924&cat=1393343
On image 927 it does seem to say that he had made a will?
Add in the index to probates on FS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DTNS-MQM?i=99&cc=1393345&cat=1393345
John
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Will of Joseph Mason here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-899R-GLW7?i=627&cat=1393344
It's very brief!
Whole thing on FS, images (627)-630
Testimony says that Joseph had suffered an accident on the railways.
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Who was James Marshall of Yea?
And is this the right Joseph Mason :-\
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Testimony says that Joseph had suffered an accident on the railways.
As a consequence of which he was unable to sign his name! If he’d done so we might have been able to do another signature comparison ::)
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I have also seen photographs (poor quality and quite flimsy) believed to have been of Joseph that were endorsed with faded hand writing on the back stating "Joseph M North'lnd" - it was not known who wrote it nor what it signified - unfortunately I did not take copies when shown some years ago.....I have since been informed the person who had them is deceased so I cannot access them again
Maybe the 'Northumberland' was just where the photo was located. If he was the Joseph bn Dublin who was possibly the apprentice in 1850 Northumberland newspaper report then any photo's of him would most likely be taken there
Keep safe,
Rosie
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Bit of background
Thommo, from what you have said...
Elizabeth Lowe must have married Thomas Watts in Adelaide in 1850
There is some sort of marriage record here, number 1560, she was 20 years old.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSKS-M9VV-M?i=239&cat=345079
Listed under Holy Trinity
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/345079?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Thomas died in May 1865, age 48
And said to be buried at the cemetery in Majorca, Victoria.
Joseph's daughter Mary, born in Majorca, Victoria,1867, before he and Elizabeth were married, and registered as Lowe (not Watts?)
If she died in Dec 1948 as Mary Whitford then she left a will (another very brief one), proved the following year, indexed here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6S5H-6C?i=137&cc=1393345
and the will can be seen here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSF7-BP3C?i=730&cat=1393344
So Mary must have married James Whitford in 1886, and the daughter named in the will was born in 1905 (father James, mother Mary Mason)
Age on death for the Joseph Mason of Ararat died Melbourne 1887 was 55?
John
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Was Thomas Watts killed in a mining accident?
Several reports in the papers on Trove, circa 29 May 1865. Details on his family may vary.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nbx/
Some info on Majorca here
https://www.goldfieldsguide.com.au/goldfields-towns/majorca/
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Was Thomas Watts killed in a mining accident?
Several reports in the papers on Trove, circa 29 May 1865. Details on his family may vary.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nbx/
Some info on Majorca here
https://www.goldfieldsguide.com.au/goldfields-towns/majorca/
John you are uncovering some fascinating information for Thommo to think about!
Thommo, we are hoping you are all safe at the moment. By contrast to yours, the temperature here in Northumberland at midday is currently -3C.
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Thank you, Jen.
I'm not sure what I am doing really! Looking for some background for Elizabeth in Australia, trying to see what those two daughters of Joseph were up to, etc, in the hope that something might turn up.
Mary and her husband James Whitford had quite a few children, they were registered in the district of Majorca in the 1890's, 1900's.
Though when we can see some electoral registers (from circa 1903) they seem to listed as resident in Maryborough.
I've got hold of an index to Maryborough Hospital admissions.
There is an entry for a Joseph Mason of Majorca in 1868.
Some things might match "our" Joseph, others do not (unless he had been leading a double life)
Or were there two similar Josephs there at the same time?
Image 4 explains what info may be given
Also, top of image 5 tells us what the abbreviations are.
Any thoughts?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSFB-M9L3-N?i=213&cat=538121
John
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Just noticed, that first Mason entry is Joseph's daughter Adelaide!
And could Mary Mason admitted in 1886 be his other daughter?
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Any thoughts?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSFB-M9L3-N?i=213&cat=538121
Interesting! Presumably the length of time in the 'colonies' (14 years) is reckoned from the year of admission, if so he is saying he's been in Australia since about 1854. Joseph William King Mason married Sarah Blakey in November 1854.
Occupation, mariner? That fits with Joseph who married Sarah Blakey, But the Joseph who married Elizabeth in 1867 was a miner. Why would a mariner be living in Majorca, a mining town well inland??
Residence Majorca fits the Joseph who married Elizabeth in 1867.
Port of embarkation London, on the 'Andromache'.
This is like swimming through treacle!
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Hi
It certainly is extraordinarily difficult to pin this man down.
I get the impression that the family might have stayed in the Majorca/Maryborough area, but I can see that Ararat is not too far away.
Having said that, the 1887 death looks somewhat iffy in the light of the probate stuff, and from what Thommo said was on the death certificate.
There was a Joseph Mason of similar age in Maryborough, apparently a farmer, and there are a few online trees that have him and his family, he seems to be the chap who died there in 1890. But he doesn't really look like the man in the hospital records?
Could Thommo ever get to see those records, I wonder.
The other thing that has passed through my head a few times is that just possibly Mary Ann born 1858 might not have been the daughter of Joseph, and that her mother Sarah named him as such for propriety's sake. But as I really have no idea, I don't want to open up a can of worms about that!
John
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Mason then migrated to Australia (am yet to trace that bit) but he married the widow Elizabeth Watts (nee Lowe) in July 1867 in Victoria...she was born in Ireland - I have that Marriage certificate also.
On it he stated he was a widower and that his first wife died Dec 1854, they had one child but that child was deceased.
If he lied about his wife being dead, then he could just as easily have lied about his child being dead as well.
So, much more likely than not, he was around in England circa 1858, but I suppose he could have sailed to Australia a few times.
Maybe he just had a fixation about the year 1854!
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The other thing that has passed through my head a few times is that just possibly Mary Ann born 1858 might not have been the daughter of Joseph, and that her mother Sarah named him as such for propriety's sake. But as I really have no idea, I don't want to open up a can of worms about that!
Tell you what..... I was thinking exactly the same thing :-X
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We really do have to keep an open mind, I guess.
If Thommo fancies getting Mary's birth certificate, or rather the pdf (only £6, soon to be £7!), it would be a good idea in any case. Being one of the few bits of evidence about him that there seems to be.
Jen, thanks for your thoughts on the admission record.
He may not have been the only Joseph Mason who headed to Majorca at that time....so complicated, why does that one have to be the right sort of age and married!
The Andromache and 14 years would be a problem, though we must remember that only the previous year Joseph had told a few fibs when he got married ;D
John
EDIT!
For Thommo
Whitfords in those hospital admissions
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSFB-M9KW-Y?i=336&cat=538121
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I'll put this over several post to be more succinct of replying direct to individual posts...
Firstly RTL your reply 93.....That Thomas Blakey I believe, may be Thomas Kell Blakey, Sarah's brother who was born in Tynemouth on 26 July 1841.
That information (and I have not verified this line at all) came from a Blakey Family Tree posted online some years back on genealogy.com - I must stress, I have not tested the accuracy of it and I would add that as with most posts the birth date given is usually a christening or baptismal date, not the actual DOB...
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jonw65 - replies 97 and 98
There is reference to a Will having been made by Joseph Mason died 14 Mar 1887 a Gatekeeper from Ararat in the Victorian Probate Citations as:
VPRS 7591/ P2 unit 124, item 34/546 - it is not available online (to me at least and I cannot access Family Search either) but had been dealt with together with the probate for the deceased on 19 July 1887. A check of the Public Records Office of Victoria will take you to that information :
Not sure of protocols in posting a link but here it is for you - mod pls delete if not allowed tks???
https://prov.vic.gov.au//explore-collection/explore-topic/wills-and-probates
Equally the family I am researching for have always stated the link with Victorian railways as it was believed Mason lived in Ararat in housing provided through his employment.
Not sure where this James Marshall from Yea you mention comes into it at all?
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Thomas Watts......
Watts married Elizabeth Lowe in Adelaide SA on the 5th Aug 1850 according to SA Marriage Indexes Volume 4, Page 129....I have not checked prior that date but later they moved to Victoria - assumed chasing gold....he worked for a company (not known whether he was an employee or owner) but he was killed in a mining accident at 8am on Wednesday 26 May 1865 - evidently he was standing on a bearer in the main shaft of the Rising Sun Mine at the Majorca Lead shaft when it broke causing him to fall 120' to his death...Medical reports as posted in several newspapers of the time, stated he suffered a crushed skull either from the fall or timbers falling on him - but death was instantaneous.
He left a widow and 2 children - Watts and Lowe had a total of 6 children, 4 were deceased prior him.....his widow then went on to marry Joseph Mason in 1867.....they only had the 2 children (have my doubts as to the father of Mary though) Mary and Adelaide.
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John, your post 108
There is reference to a Joseph Mason died 1890 - occupation farmer of Cuddys Flat which is near Maryborough....age was about right but unfortunately this bloke was born in Adelaide, fathers name John and mother Ellen Girk - could be Kirk - his father John was also a farmer and believed he passed the farm down to his son John
John died there on 2 April 1890 from stomach carcinoma - unfortunately not ours Joseph Mason
Thank you for the Whitford connection....I have that line sorted (???) as much as I intend at this stage, preferring to concentrate on the Mason lineage....but as mentioned cannot access ancestry which means unfortunately cannot open the hospital links etc you provided...thanks all the same
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There is reference to a Will having been made by Joseph Mason died 14 Mar 1887 a Gatekeeper from Ararat in the Victorian Probate Citations as:
VPRS 7591/ P2 unit 124, item 34/546 - it is not available online (to me at least and I cannot access Family Search either) but had been dealt with together with the probate for the deceased on 19 July 1887. A check of the Public Records Office of Victoria will take you to that information :
Hi Thommo, greetings from snowy Northumberland :)
I'm a bit confused by what you say, because in #98 John demonstrated that the will is available online (I have looked at it).
Why is it you cannot access Family Search? Does this mean you have not seen any of the Family Search links we have posted throughout this thread?
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Hi Thommo
The will says
This is the Last Will and Testament of
me Joseph Mason in Ararat District
After payment of all my just debts funeral and
testamentary expenses . I give Devise and Bequeath
unto
James Marshall
(age about Fourteen years)
Yea
Everything which I possess and everything
which is due to me through compensation
from government and other services
And I hearby appoint
William Hay Dawson
Grocer residing in Ararat
Executor of this my will. In witness
whereof I have hereunto set my hand this
the First Day of November in the year
of our Lord One thousand eight hundred
and eighty six
by affixing his mark
Signed by ʌ the said Joseph Mason
the Testator and by him declared
to be his last Will and Testament in the presence of.........
Not sure of the initials of the first witness (which are repeated last image in the affidavit), surname is Bennett.
The second must be W H Dawson
Next two images, won't transcribe it all.
Joseph Mason, late of Railway Line,
near Ararat, in the Colony
of Victoria, Gatekeeper,
deceased.
William Hay Dawson, of Ararat, Grocer, then confirms that is the will of the said Joseph Mason.
And says that Joseph was unable to sign his name owing to the loss of three fingers from the right hand, and the loss of the left hand, the result of a railway accident.
Presumably the compensation mentioned had something to do with the accident?
You would think that such an occurrence might be reported in the newspapers, but I haven't seen anything so far.
John
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Thanks John and JenB
I generally cannot access any of the more recent Wills or Probate documents listed online nor do I have access to any Ancestry links you post - the latter informing me that I need to pay another subscription to Ancestry to access the links you posted.......I was once a member
Regarding the Probate and Wills etc...I assume it is because my ISP is regional prefixed as it often informs that the record is not available to me online and to access it I will need to physically attend their offices to view etc...
However some Wills and Records are available online but they are generally those up to the 1850's and 60's or thereabouts....but not this one, for me at least.
Thanks for posting the Will, I will have a look next week and see where this Marshall chap fits in.....as I mentioned, I'm still not 100% sure we have the right Joseph.....
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HI Thommo
I generally cannot access any of the more recent Wills or Probate documents listed online nor do I have access to any Ancestry links you post - the latter informing me that I need to pay another subscription to Ancestry to access the links you posted.......I was once a member
All the links John and I have posted are from Family Search, which is free to join and contains a wealth of information if you know where to look!
I agree with you that it's far from certain that the Joseph who died in 1887 is the Joseph who married Elizabeth in 1867 :-\
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Hi ThommoS,
Re post 112 - I can confirm from the Christ Church baptism entries regarding Thomas Blakey's birth and baptism details. This is his entry:
Entry 1137
Born July 25th 1841
Baptised August 22 1841
Thomas
Parents: Thomas and Mary Ann Blakey
Butcher
Clive Street
Also, this may have no relevance whatsoever to a possible Father for Joseph in the North Shields area - especially as this one is a mariner - however this person appears in the Tynemouth General Cemetery burial records:
Entry 3891
William King of Saville Street, North Shields - Mariner
Aged 60 years
Buried April 22 1860
Ward E No 156
Depth 6 feet
Died April 18 of Asthma.
Ignore, if it turns out further down the line to be of no relevance whatsoever, - I just copied this down just in case. :)
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John,
Re: James Marshall aged about 14 in 1886 - born approx 1872 - residing in Yea.....The Vic Births show a James John Marshall, born 1873 in Upper Plenty (in the vicinity of Yea) to Stowel Marshall (f) and Mary Sheedy (m)...all the other registered James Marshall births are in different areas of Victoria ..
This chap is well documented in the Vic BDM's with marriage and family etc and did reside in Yea according to later census records - so fair chance the same chap as the 14 year old mentioned......
How he relates to Joseph I have no idea and why did this Joseph leave his estate to someone other than his own children?..
I know it's not uncommon but all these unanswered questions do tend to make me think there's certainly an issue with Joseph and his family - however; and this has been a constant all through the search - there is a direct connection to Ararat and to the Railways....with this Joseph at least......
Thank you JenB for those links......unfortunately I cannot access them as I prefer not to submit my personal information to Family Search in order to to create a 'free account'.....
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RTL - sincere thanks for that - some years back when I had different information I researched the marriner line (believing the father to be a sea captain as stated on a later marriage certificate) there were several residing and also boarding in the Tynemouth district.
I obtained a Masters Certificate of Service (# 44,349) for - William Mason - born North Shields stating he had been an apprentice, mate and then master for 36 years and now Master in Boating and Foreign Trades - Certificate was issued at Customs House (sorry can't read where) 12 July 1851......
Given that we now know Joseph appears to have told a few porkies - not sure if this is relevant as I could not trace a residence nor family for this chap in North Shields....that's what I was hoping to achieve....
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RTL - re post 120
The burial for the mariner William King of Saville Street could possibly be Josephs' uncle....his mother's maiden name as far as he stated was King and the age is about right....purely supposition of course but a great find all the same........thanks
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Thank you JenB for those links......unfortunately I cannot access them as I prefer not to submit my personal information to Family Search in order to to create a 'free account'.....
I can understand what you mean, I have a separate email address that I use for things like this. Familysearch asks for name, date of birth and email, the only one that has to be accurate is the email. ;D It would be a shame that you are not able to access all of this free information.
They are putting on more images all the time as records at their family history centres are limited and you can no longer order in films. My local LDS which I visited each week closed a few years ago, supposedly for redecorating and never reopened except for church members.
Rosie
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Thank you JenB for those links......unfortunately I cannot access them as I prefer not to submit my personal information to Family Search in order to to create a 'free account'.....
I can understand what you mean, I have a separate email address that I use for things like this. Familysearch asks for name, date of birth and email, the only one that has to be accurate is the email. ;D It would be a shame that you are not able to access all of this free information.
I endorse 100% what Rosie has said. I have a separate email which I used. This is the only thing which needs to be accurate. Everything else can be an invention if you wish. As we (and John in particular) have shown on this thread, there is a huge amount of information out there just waiting to be discovered.
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Apologies for going off topic - Thank you for your suggestions JenB and Rosie - I acknowledge and appreciate the information flow available by yourselves and others; perhaps from that source as you mention........ but in view of your previous posts and to clarify what may be a misconception, I have copied and pasted but one extract from the Terms and Conditions together with a link to them for additional information.
--- you agree to provide true, accurate, current, and complete information about yourself (including during the registration process) and to maintain and keep current and accurate this information about yourself, ----
https://www.familysearch.org/terms
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It is obviously up to you what you choose to do :)
I never fill in my correct date of birth on an internet form unless it is a legal or financial matter. I fail to see why a family history site needs it for someone to register for an account. Is registering for familysearch really any different than registering for rootschat. :-\
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Hello Thommo, I hope things are improving with you with regard to the heat and the bush fires?
I can't pretend I'm not disappointed at your reluctance to sign up with Family Search, as you are missing out on such a wealth of easily accessible information, Joseph Mason's will being a case in point. However we must respect your wish not to do so :)
May I make a few suggestions?
If it were me I would consider purchasing the 1858 birth certificate for Mary Ann Kell Mason, as also suggested by John in reply #111. It would be interesting to see who the informant was (I suspect possibly her mother, but you never know....) I would also give thought to purchasing her death certificate. You can purchase the certificates as pdf's via the GRO https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
If you do decide to post any new threads on this family on Rootschat do please make sure you include a link to this thread, as there is so much information contained in it, and the link would save much duplication of effort.
It would also be worth making clear that you aren't signed up with F.S. and that you're unable to view any links which are posted.
Good luck with your future research on this elusive family :)
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Thank you JenB,
Appreciate your thoughts, you summed it up well in your reference to 'easily accessible information' - most if not all the information is available to me through sources other than Family Search and I am endeavouring to access those when I can.... Joseph's Will is such in point - and I am grateful for John in transcribing that - unfortunately it doesn't mention his alleged parents, but I will try to access the physical copy as with all other Victorian documents that have arisen so far at some stage.
Wholeheartedly agree, a subscription to FS would make it easier to access information but appreciate I have strong reservations on that company together with their business model and would certainly not offer false information in order to access their platform - I offer no judgement of what others may or may not do. Hope you can respect that and if I do post another query, will certainly mention I am not a subscriber to them
I am in the process of obtaining some of the BDM Discs for Northumberland as similarly those Durham Records in trying to narrow down the search criteria for William (and Mary) and any possible family in that area. It will be some weeks before I receive them.
It's looking like they may not have resided there as Joseph claimed in the material so far yet Sarah's parents appear to be accurately described
I have to prioritised the material I purchase to direct the search toward the original query and that was finding William and Mary - considering Mary Ann Kell Mason is (most probably) the daughter of Joseph and Sarah, doubtful information on her alleged grand parents would be shown on any of her certificates....so haven't sought them at this stage. I am slowly going over the material again that has already provided together with the many reference sources.... in more detail now given the additional information that has been uncovered..
I managed to obtain access to the Northumberland Wills Indexes 1858-1878 - the Blakey's are listed but on checking for the Mason's - no Williams at all....only Mason listed in Tynemouth - being Sarah Mason of Murton who died 25 Apr 1876. I will purchase that at some stage but am waiting on the discs to arrive..... it's a riddle within an enigma ! ???
Thank you for your help....we have uncovered lots of information on this family, far more than I ever anticipated (anyone would have trouble believing it too) and it's all been done by generous contributors such as yourself and others who made it possible.......it truly is amazing and demonstrates the wonderful nature of those assisting
I'll keep working on it and if anything pops up I will post to this thread immediately, hopefully the material I ordered will open other avenues once I get into it but am confident we'll sort them out - think we've managed to knock a few bricks loose in the original brick wall I hit; given the shared interest so far......