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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wexford => Topic started by: GaryWest on Wednesday 16 January 19 16:11 GMT (UK)
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Benjamin William Bates, who was known as Ben Bates, was born on 29th January 1868 in Gorey, Wexford, Ireland to John Bates (a farmer) and Jane Barbara Webster. At some point he immigrated to South Africa and was first a public servant detective and later a private detective in Johannesburg. He had married Cornelia van Os (widow of van Os, born Rensen) in about 1902 and had a son, Cecil Charles Webster Bates. The marriage must have broken down by about 1907. No divorce record in South Africa. Benjamin Bates had immigrated to Ireland and had married Josephine Bates on 6 May 1907 in St Peters Church, Dublin, Ireland. Josephine Bates was born on 7 April 1864 in Gorey, Wexford, Ireland and was the daughter of William Bates (a coachbuilder) and Anna Stedman. Josephine was of fair complexion, with fair hair and grey eyes. Benjamin and Josephine Bates visited 3613 Fisk Avenue, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA, in June 1907. Apparently Benjamin had previously been in the USA from 1897, for about 3yrs. They were back in Birmingham, Warwickshire, England for the birth of their daughter, Irma Josephine Bates in the last quarter of 1908 and she was baptised on 9 March 1909 at St Thomas, Church of England, in Birmingham and subsequently died soon after in 1909. They were still in Birmingham in 1911. Benjamin appears to have died at 46yrs of age in December 1914 in Pancras, England.
I am interested in tracing back John Bates. There was a Bates family of coach builders in Gorey, but John does not seem to be connected. Josephine' father, William seems to have been. Cornelia Bates moved to then Rhodesia and died in Bulawayo.
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Religion?
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Looking at Irish Genealogy 1864 on ... there are births to:
Joseph Bates and Harriet Roe - Coach Maker/ Factor
Here is Josephine - William and Anna Stedman - Coach Maker
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1864/03617/2335320.pdf
John Bates and Jane Webster - described as Farmer and a Merchant.
Here is Benjamin
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1868/03455/2268823.pdf
There are more records.
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https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0596 IF they were R.C
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Bates, Coach builders here mentioned from post #34
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=756127.36
I just noticed that you posted the last post on that thread in 2017, Gary.
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However, I never got a response from that last post in 1917.
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However, I never got a response from that last post in 1917.
After 102 Years you probably won't! ;D
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Is this John Bates’ death? 1878
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1878/020495/7192176.pdf
There is a newspaper snippet referring to John Bates, Auctioneer in 1877 on FindMyPast.
Yes it is him. William Bates is an executor of John’s will.
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014894/005014894_00433.pdf
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I notice that John’s father was William - so he may have been the executor :-\
There is a possible death and probate 1879
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That was good one from Hallmark. Of course I meant 2017.
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I think that Benjamin William Webster was the father of Jane Barbara Webster.
Just found the marriage of John & Jane (4 April 1867) shows his father as William Bates and her father as Benjamin Webster.
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Yes according to the marriage.
I don’t want to keep searching if I am only telling you things you already know.
The marriage entry I can see is a brief transcription. The marriage certificate might show witnesses to see if there are any connections.
The will indexes might help you.
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Religion?
The OP mentions CofE.
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I am trying to find a link between William Bates the coach builder and father of Josephine Bates on one side and Benjamin William Bates line on the other. Benjamin's grandfather William Bates was a farmer. This may help to understand why Benjamin, after going to South Africa, marrying there and having a child, leaves and goes back to Ireland, finds Josephine Bates and marries her after such a long time. I am presuming that he may have gone back to his childhood sweetheart? He may have known or have been connected to Josephine Bates in some way? Benjamin and Josephine were only 2 yrs different in age. Has anyone researched the Bates family of Gorey Wexford before, there seems to have been something done on the coach builder side but, when I had left a post in 2017 there was no response.
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What information do you have about William Bates, the father of Benjamin?
Who is the father of William Bates, the father of Josephine?
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Deceased Surname Bates
Deceased Forename William (Coachmaker)
Primary Beneficiary/Executor Anna Maria Bates
Date of Death 24 Dec 1867
County of Death Wexford
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014888/005014888_00022.pdf
Haven't looked at the rest of willcalendars http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n9u/
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Document Type Will
Year of Event 1879
Year of Grant NR
Year of Death NR
Surname Bates
Forename William
Location Gorey Hill, Kilmichalogue, Wexford, Ireland
Occupation Farmer
Deceased
Heir or ExecutorJohn Bates, William Hudson, Monaseed, John Dowling, Clough, John Moors, Charlotte Hudson, Mr Benjamin W Webster, Gorey, Richard Creighton, Gorey
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/wr/007604274_00100.pdf
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/wr/007604274_00101.pdf
Haven't read it to check relevancy....
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I referred to that death and will earlier but did not give details - sorry.
I did suggest that Gary look at wills as a reference. The names could be crossmatched to see if there are connections. I would imagine all that has already been done.
With reference to your post, Hallmark, there is a marriage 1860, Gorey - Charlotte Bates, Father William and John Moore.
They are living at Monaseed according to birth of son, John.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03586/2322228.pdf
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Hallmark's links end - 404 not found?
The last shortcut does not seem to be correct?
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http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/wr/home.jsp
just use Surname and Wexford, then Search
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Benjamin William Bates, who was known as Ben Bates, was born on 29th January 1868 in Gorey, Wexford, Ireland to John Bates (a farmer) and Jane Barbara Webster. At some point he immigrated to South Africa and was first a public servant detective and later a private detective in Johannesburg. He had married Cornelia van Os (widow of van Os, born Rensen) in about 1902 and had a son, Cecil Charles Webster Bates. The marriage must have broken down by about 1907. No divorce record in South Africa. Benjamin Bates had immigrated to Ireland and had married Josephine Bates on 6 May 1907 in St Peters Church, Dublin, Ireland. Josephine Bates was born on 7 April 1864 in Gorey, Wexford, Ireland and was the daughter of William Bates (a coachbuilder) and Anna Stedman. Josephine was of fair complexion, with fair hair and grey eyes. Benjamin and Josephine Bates visited 3613 Fisk Avenue, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA, in June 1907. Apparently Benjamin had previously been in the USA from 1897, for about 3yrs. They were back in Birmingham, Warwickshire, England for the birth of their daughter, Irma Josephine Bates in the last quarter of 1908 and she was baptised on 9 March 1909 at St Thomas, Church of England, in Birmingham and subsequently died soon after in 1909. They were still in Birmingham in 1911. Benjamin appears to have died at 46yrs of age in December 1914 in Pancras, England.
I am interested in tracing back John Bates. There was a Bates family of coach builders in Gorey, but John does not seem to be connected. Josephine' father, William seems to have been. Cornelia Bates moved to then Rhodesia and died in Bulawayo.
Hi Gary...it is a change for me to find something that I may have an input in on Rootschat that is current and not ten years old. I realise you're interested in chasing John Bates, but there might be a bit of interest for you here....Amazingly I've been doing some work on Benjamin William Bates over a few days now ( I'm not related btw).
Forgive me if I'm telling you what you already know... B W Bates seems to have been a very clever man, around 1910 he perfects a system for moving target shooting using a method of projecting the target onto a multiple thickness paper screen, it could be anything from birds and wild animals to enemy soldiers, the clever part is that on the crack of the shot a telephone earpiece picks it up and a relay stops the film in motion for three seconds..a bright light behind the sceen illuminates the hole to allow for scoring, the film then starts again and one of the rolls of paper moves up to obscure the hole made by the previous shot.
He, along with Henry Weldon Kelly and Douglas Haynes Corbin apply for patents at home and the USA. The equipment is trialled by the British Army School of Musketry at Hythe, plus various Barracks. This device is originally called Kinema Moving Targets, but around 1913/14 becomes Life Targets Ltd.
Head Office is in Wardour Street, London with £50,000 of share capital...no small venture. It appears franchises are offered and I've found them in most major cities in the UK. The Sheffield one alone started with £1,500 of capital. Selfridge's had one on their rooftop in London.
This goes global very quickly after 1912/13, it appeared in the Australian newspapers, and I have found it went to Germany, where an American Impresario saw it and took it back to he USA...Coney Island definitely had one, but I think there may have been many others as the 1915 Remington Arms ammunition catalogue is offering special ammo for the Life Target system.
I have found the UK Life Targets Ltd, ceases to trade in 1916..more to do on this, but my first guess is that the demands of war meant that no ammunition in .22 calibre, and even more so the special flat ended round that was needed for cutting a neat hole in the paper would be available.
At this stage I do not know if it carried on in the US (sadly I do not have a subscription to US newspaper or other archives) or how widely it spread, I would like to know though!!...one article I read suggested the Germans were still using the system for training troops in the 1930's
I am in agreement that Ben died in 1914, as did his wife Josephine...were the deaths connected?
Your info about a son in South Africa is very interesting, I wonder what happened to him?
At the moment it looks as though Ben was on the verge of real fortune at the time of his death, although perhaps WW1 would have denied it?...I hope this is interesting.
Andy
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Turning back to Bates himself, the newspaper articles of the time describe him as South African, but having had a quick look at the genealogy he is very much a man of the world
I have a few pics and a lot of other info not collated, you are more than welcome to anything I've found...if you have a photo of him that would be most appreciated.
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This Search on https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp will get all Registrations for Bates Gorey.
From there one can select Deaths etc.
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