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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: KennethDavidson on Wednesday 09 January 19 20:36 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
For several years I have a been searching for the descendants of a James Davidson (b 1891 in West Lothian). I thought that after WW1 James emigrated from Motherwell to South Africa, married and brought-up a family there. My father met with some of that family in 1943 while traveling to India and Burma.
Last summer I had a breakthrough (with help from RootsChat regulars), when I discovered some letters between my parents and two of James’ daughters. This allowed me to contact several of the next generation.
All was well.
The elephant in the room was that I knew nothing about James’ wife Margaret. So I searched SP and came up with 16 possible marriages, none of which ‘looked right’. I then looked at Ships Passenger Records for SA between 1920-1930 and found that there was a family (minus father) of:
Mother: Mrs. Margaret Ann Davidson
Child 1: William
Child 2: Mary Helen
Child 3: Robert Edward
Child 4: John
Child 5: Susannah
who were travelling from Motherwell to Capetown.
The names of the children match with the names already supplied by current family members from SA. I obtained the original Birth Certificates (from SP) for William, Robert Edward and Mary Helen Davidson, and discovered that the mother, Margaret Ann Davidson (ne Williams) was married to a William Davidson!
And I cannot find any other list of names in Scotland that match.
So, has anyone got any ideas as to where else I can check?
Many thanks,
Kenneth.
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I note the marriage & children you mention.
DAVIDSON WILLIAM - WILLIAMS MARGARET ANN 1914 Dalziel
Children Registered Dalziel.
Child 1: William 1915
Child 2: Mary (Helen) Ellen 1916
Child 3: Robert Edward 1918
Child 4: John 1925
Child 5: Susannah 1924
I checked Robert Edward & Susanna/h but no others of those names born in Scotland, some of each of the others elsewhere.
Do you have the birth record for James?
Just to check he was not William James or the other way around.
On the 1901 census there is a James born West Lothian, plus two brothers same, parents William & Mary living in Govan, Glasgow, might be worth a look?
Colin
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Hi Colin,
The SP Birth record for James Davidson gives him no middle names. He was born in Queensferry (Mid Lothian) in 1891.
The 1901 Census records him with his parents (William & Mary) and his surviving siblings in Haldane Street, Govan.
He was missing in Motherwell for the 1911 Census, so I assume he had left home. I've not been able to trace him since.
I'm assuming he married about 1914-15, and joined the Army around that time also. I also searched the SP records for 'Mary (H)ellan, 'Robert Edward' and 'Susannah' These correspond with the names provided by the Davidsons in SA.
Before Christmas, I did a quick search on Ships Passenger records for James which showed nothing. I will go back to Kew Records sometime in the next few weeks, otherwise I really don't know what to do next.
All comments appreciated!
Thanks,
Kenneth.
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You sure do have a bit of a puzzle. Do your contacts in SA agree the father of the children you mentioned was James?
I note the family in Daziel in 1911 minus James it looks likely that his parents died towards the end of the 1920s. I cannot find a Military Service record for him, if he was in the Army it may not have survived. Could James have changed his name to William?
DAVIDSON WILLIAM 74 1928 Dalziel
DAVIDSON MARY 68 1925 Dalziel
There are Valuation Rolls there in 1915/1920/1925 for a James & William Davidson
I can only find one birth record for Margaret Ann, below, in Scotland but several in England & Wales.
WILLIAMS MARGARET ANN 1887 Burntisland
Sadly a large number of William Davidson’s.
Colin
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As I mentioned there was only one Margaret Ann born in Scotland of about the right age. There was also only one marriage for Margaret Ann, the one to William
WILLIAMS MARGARET A 1911 23 Newington Midlothian
No other Williams on that record.
By co-incidence there was a 22 year old William Davidson in Newington in 1911
He was with others about his own age, including a James and two possible fathers William 54 or Donald 58
There were no James, William or Margaret Ann of the right age Dalziel in 1911.
No Margaret Ann Marriage 1913 +/- 2 in England & Wales.
Colin
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Hi Kenneth and Colin
Kenneth, how have you been able to confirm that James was born in 1891 with family in West Lothian?
What was James' occupation around the time he was with a young family and in later years?
Colin, the ages you listed for the children, are these from the shipping manifest heading out to SA?
There is an entry on 20 June 1921 arriving at Southampton for passengers returning to the UK. Point of origin is South Africa (Cape Town port of departure):
Mr and Mrs J Davidson. J aged 39 and wife 38 (or maybe 28 as also indexed).
Mr J Davidson's occupation is showing as Chief Storekeeper, Crown Mines.
Two children, unnamed. Girl aged 5 and boy aged 2.
Planning to return to live in South Africa.
Monica
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Hi Monica and Colin,
Yes, I have the birth certificates (SP) for James (b 1891), and children William, Mary Helen (Ellen) and Robert Edward.
James moves away from the rest of the family sometime between the 1901 Census and 1918 & 1919, when he posts a notes to the Motherwell Times regarding the deaths of two of his brothers.
I have several possible James' for his military career still to research. He was awarded MM sometime between 1915-1919, and I assume he was with a Lowland Regiment.
The years of birth for the children were estimated based on the likely marriage date of 1914-15, and the fact that the youngest child (Margaret) was born in 1926, in SA. The Ship Manifest (for June 1925) shows ages for each of the children in the right order and with generally consistent ages. James did not sail with the family. I assume he traveled out earlier to start a job. That would put his voyage as being between 1919 and June 1925.
Comments from my SA cousins:
James (Jim) married to Margaret (Maggie).
William (Bill) Davidson is the eldest of Jim’s (James’) kids, married ……..
May (Mary Ellen) b 7th Dec ?, married …..
Robert (Bob) Edward Davidson married …..
John (Jock) married ……
Susannah (Sue) married …...
The children's names on the Ships Manifest match those used by the present-day family in SA, and also those names in the SP search (except that they have the father named as William!).
I'm still confused!!
Thanks,
Kenneth.
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What was James' occupation on his children's birth certs and then in SA?
See Family Search has potential deaths for Jim and Maggie as c. 1960 and c. 1968.
www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3CR8-4TW
Monica
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Kenneth, the Scottish birth certs you have viewed should include date and place of parents' marriage. What do they say in respect of this? Did it match the details that Colin posted re the marriage in Dalziel in 1914?
If so, have you considered looking at the marriage reg to double check details there? Would include full details on bride and groom's parents to help further verify.
You mentioned that James was born in 1891 in West Lothian. Should this be Hamilton? With the Davidson family you have, James Russell Davidson shows as born in 1890 in Hamilton (as showing also in the 1891 and 1901 censuses). James shows as James R Davidson in his 1901 census entry.
Monica
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James Russell Davidson b. 1890, I think his mother was Agnes Russell who died in Hamilton in 1991 aged 33
A William Davidson married an Agnes Russell in 1880 in Hamilton.
This looks like the family in 1891:
William Davidson 32 carpenter b. Fosterseat, Fifeshire
Robert Davidson 7 b. Hamilton
Margaret Davidson 4 b. Hamilton
James Davidson 9 months b. Hamilton
Christina Davidson 19 sister b. Monzievaird, Perthshire
Address 25 Baillies Causeway, Hamilton
A William Davidson married a Mary Hutton in Hamilton in 1895. There is a possible death in Hamilton in 1935 for a Mary Hutton/Davidson, aged 71 which fits well with her age in the 1901 census.
Monica
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I note the marriage & children you mention.
DAVIDSON WILLIAM - WILLIAMS MARGARET ANN 1914 Dalziel
Children Registered Dalziel.
Child 1: William 1915
Child 2: Mary (Helen) Ellen 1916
Child 3: Robert Edward 1918
Child 4: John 1925
Child 5: Susannah 1924
From the list posted by Colin with a clear order. I think the birth entry you posted for a Margaret Ann William in 1887 is very likely the correct one.
James/William and Margaret Ann look to have followed naming pattern in respect of the names connected with her. I think her father was a Robert Edward Williams and mother Mary Ellen Plunkett. Likely marriage for them in Wrexham, England in the last qrt of 1878 (vol 11b/ p 482).
This looks to be the Williams in 1891
Robert Williams 34 coal miner b. Wales
Mary E Williams 28 b. England
Susannah Williams 11 b. Wales
Herbert Williams 10 b. Wales
Margt Ann Williams 3 b. Burntisland, Fifeshire
James Williams 1 b. Cowdenbeath, Fifeshire
Joseph Williams 1 Month b. Bellshill, Lanarkshire
Address: Main St, Bothwell, Lanarkshire
From Family Search, the 1881 census gives you the specific birth places in England and Wales https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WS-CDCD (you need to be signed in to view now).
An old post here on RC regarding Mary Ellen Plunkett www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=555287.0
Monica
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Margaret Ann Williams and her parents and siblings (9 children by 1901) are living in Motherwell by 1901:
Robert Williams 43
Mary E Williams 37
Hobert Williams 20
Jane Williams 17
Margareta Williams 13
Jannes Williams 11
Joseph Williams 10
Alexander Williams 8
Mary E Williams 6
Fellias Williams 2
Robert Williams 1
Address: 23 Old Camp, Motherwell
There is also a further long post here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=555265.0 on Mary Ellen Plunkett, mother and family.
Monica
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Must stop, too many in a row from me and I am now obsessing!
Had to look at the marriage from 1914. Everything fits for the Margaret Ann that you found Colin and we have above, William Davidson is completely different:
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From the marriage cert, this is I think the Davidson family in 1881. Eliza Crombie died in 1885 in Uphall at the age of 34.
William Davidson 28 joiner b. Glasgow
Eliza Davidson 50 (mistranscribed, likely 30) b. Inveraray, Argyleshire
Eliza Crombie Davidson 5
William Davidson 4 b. Glasgow
Jeanie A Davidson 2
Eliza Crombie 62 mother in law annuitant b. England
Address: Station Row (49), Uphall West Lothian (is this where the ref to West Lothian comes from I wonder?).
Monica
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This looks to be the family in 1891 with William Snr remarried it seems. The Peter below the same as the Peter who was witness at the 1914 marriage?
William Davidson 38 joiner b. Glasgow
Mary Davidson 34 b. Tallyallay, Perthshire...possibly Mary Allan
William Davidson 14 App joiner b. Glasgow
Jeanie Davidson 12
Lucy Davidson 9
David Davidson 8
Peter Davidson 2
John Davidson 1
Address: Beachmont Villa, Queensferry West Lothian
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James Russell Davidson b. 1890 in Hamilton married Barrhead in 1914 to a Marion Stevenson. As we thought and discussed above, his mother was Agnes Russell. His father showing as James rather than William! A carpenter by trade. Likely he died in Bothwell at the age of 76 in 1966.
He is not therefore the correct Davidson :-\
The William v James issue is certainly a puzzle...but does look like it was William as you have on the children's birth certs.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Many thanks for all your hard work. It will take me some time to sort out all your information! However, here are some first thoughts/comments:
The FamilySearch hyperlink for Jim & Maggie death dates was my original breakthrough discovery.
The Birth Certificates (from SP) for William, Mary Helen Davidson and Robert Edward all show Motherwell addresses. I don’t have any of the younger siblings certificates yet.
James’ father William was born in Anderston, Glasgow. He lived in Uphall, Broxburn and then Queensferry (working on the Forth Railway Bridge?) for about 12 years, and had 7 children born during that time. There is no record of anyone in that family living in Hamilton.
William (b 1853) had two wives; Elizabeth Crombie (1851-1885, from Inverary) and Mary Morris (1854-1925, from Tulliallan), and had 13 children in all!
William Davidson and Elizabeth Crombie had a son called William (b 1877). I have very little on him at present. In the 1891 census, he was an apprentice joiner who lived in Beechmont Villa, Queensferry. He would have been a half brother to James (b 1891) and Peter (b 1888).
Thanks for finding what looks like a plausible history for Margaret Ann Davidson. I hope that side of that family is well understood now. I still don’t understand James vs William. Is there any official way to change names?
Thanks,
Kenneth.
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William Davidson and Elizabeth Crombie had a son called William (b 1877). I have very little on him at present. In the 1891 census, he was an apprentice joiner who lived in Beechmont Villa, Queensferry. He would have been a half brother to James (b 1891) and Peter (b 1888).
From what we have to date on Scottish records, this William b 1878, son William Snr and Elizabeth Crombie is who married Margaret Ann Williams.
From the 1914 marriage, with the clip previously, William showed as aged 36 which fits well with a birth c. 1878. Peter, his brother showing as witness we think.
What addresses do you have for the birth certs you have got for the Davidson children?
Monica