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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: bykerlads on Wednesday 09 January 19 14:36 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for traces of a male of Spanish nationality who might have been in Holmfirth or nearby in 1860 or thereabouts.
Any help would be welcome.
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Yo no comprende! Do you have a surname in mind? :-\
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Sorry, we have no surname but a slight suspicion ( based on her first name) that the father of our illegitimate great grandmother might have been of Iberian origin.
A bit of a long shot but we know that it was not unknown for "foreign" people to visit the area perhaps in connection with the textile industry.
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Have you looked at the 1861 census for Holmfirth?
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According to FindMyPast there are 919 people in Holmfirth alone in 1861. None of them have Spain down as place of birth, nor 'overseas'. Without a name it is a very long shot indeed.
Emeltom
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Yes, Emeltom, it is a very long shot.
From what you say, it seems possible to use Findmypast to get simple nationality stats for a particular town. Is this so? I tend to use Ancestry and am unfamiliar with FindMyPast.
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If you click on A-Z of Record sets you can select a particular Census year to search. All I did was enter Spain and Overseas into the box entitled Birth Place (other) and nothing came up. Not sure if there is a more precise way of doing it.
Emeltom
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Sorry, we have no surname but a slight suspicion ( based on her first name) that the father of our illegitimate great grandmother might have been of Iberian origin.
There were quite a few Victorians who gave their children exotic sounding names.....
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Thanks, Emeltom. Will have a go.
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The only other way is to go through every Census entry for Holmfirth and the surrounding area looking for a foreign sounding name - sooner you than me. I'm getting on a bit and might not make it to the end of the list!
Emeltom
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I suspect that we shall not get a definitive answer, Emeltom.
But after years of wondering why grtgrandma had such a wierd and unique first name, we were prompted by the results of a family history dna test to look for Iberian blood in our tree. Obviously these tests can be misleading but it made us think that the first letter H of the name might be the result of an Yorkshire attempt to pronounce J in a Spanish way. Certainly in the few early documentary renderings of the name, the first letters seem to have caused a problem.
Will keep digging.
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Sorry, we have no surname but a slight suspicion ( based on her first name) that the father of our illegitimate great grandmother might have been of Iberian origin.
A bit of a long shot but we know that it was not unknown for "foreign" people to visit the area perhaps in connection with the textile industry.
As I don't know your illegitimate great grandmothers first name, so I'll use a taken at random Spanish girls first name.
If the girl was born illegitimate to an English or UK mother with a foreign father, the girl could be named something like (Example only) Bianca Boothroyd or Antonella Kaye using the mothers spinster or widowed surname.
One of your Gt grandmothers children's birth certificate or her grown up child's marriage certificate may have answers
Depending on the illegitimate (Gt Grandmother ) child's mother status ability to bring up supporting the child ? maybe Overseers of the poor records or bastardy orders ?
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Does your DNA result still have the Iberian percentage.
Mine did initially but then Ancestry did a big revision and it was removed.
Many of my family are dark haired etc but that is the West of Ireland.
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What was your great grandmother's exotic first name?
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The dna result is very recent so probably valid.
Grtgran's first name was Hosetta. Written variously in baptism and early censuses but gradually settling down to that spelling.
If the name was meant to be Josetta it would, I think have been pronounced in Spanish with the typical " whistling"
H sound.
We might take a huge leap and assume that her father was called Jose ( " Hoseh")?
Ironically, there is no hint of mediterranean blood in the hair and skin of any family members current or born after 1880. We are all rather fair, nordic types.
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Maybe a connection between a Holmfirth family with Gibraltar
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PS. So far the only long shot possibilty I have found is one Jose Claramunt, stuff (ie cloth) merchant b. Spain, staying at at inn in Bradford in 1861.
Spanish, called Jose, travelling around West Yorkshire?
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Hosetta Wimpenny
Birth Registration
Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Year 1861
Registration District Huddersfield
County Yorkshire
Volume 9A
Page 275
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1901 c
Hosetta Mellor
Event Type Census
Event Date 31 Mar 1901
Jabez Mellor Head M 39 Austonley, Yorkshire
Hosetta Mellor Wife F 39 Upperthong, Yorkshire (Birth Year (Estimated) 1862)
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Jabez Mellor
Birth Date: 1861
Age: 21
Hosetta Wimpenny
Spouse's Birth Date: 1861
Spouse's Age: 21
marriage date - 20 May 1882
Upperthong, York, England
Grooms Father's Name Joseph Mellor
Registration District Huddersfield
County Yorkshire
Event Place Huddersfield, Yorkshire, England
Volume 9A
Page 473
Affiliate Line Number 231
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Yes, dobfarm, that is my Hosetta.
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Have you got her birth certificate, if not, I'd advise you obtain one, it may help to find her mothers full name, then find her on censuses for an address and people in the households 1841c , 1851c, and 1861c. Then look around censuses for a male Spanish sounding surname near that address.
Though Rosetta a corruption of Hosetta (or visa versa) is not that uncommon as a English, Irish, Scottish or Romany name and bearing in mind a lot of the public were illiterate - Hosetta, Rosetta and Josetta would sound similar.
Gypsy's travelled Europe and could explain foreign DNA from further back in ancestry or time coming down paternal or maternal lines of parents, grandparents and Gt grandparents.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Arosetta.~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Aengland~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1750-1771~
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Thanks for this, dob.
Her birth and marriage certs both have blanks for father's name, as does the baptism entry.
As you say, it will be a matter of trawling round the locality, looking for non-English names.
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Out of interest, someone has added the following to a family tree on Ancestry which seems to fit with Hosetta...
Eliza Wimpenny (daughter of James) married William Bottomley (son of William) on 22 March 1863.
1871 Census (Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/WRYRG10_4347_4351-0076/25601562)):
- Lizata Bottomley (aged 9) of Broad Lane, Upperthong
1881 Census (Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/WRYRG11_4367_4371-0855/24010620)):
- Osetta Bottomley (aged 17) cotton winder of Matlock, Upperthong
Hosetta had a younger sister named Hannah Maria, which strikes me as being an unusual (although not unique) name for the area.
Perhaps worth noting that travelling circuses weren't an unfamiliar site in the mid-1800s, even in the wilds of rural Yorkshire. They often arrived in time for the local annual Feast and could have included performers from Europe and beyond. A monkey or large ape was shot near Ramsden Rocks (the area is also known by locals as "Monkey Nick") to the southwest of Holmfirth in May 1852 and the assumption in the newspapers was that it had escaped from one of the circuses.
For example, the attractions at the 1860 Honley Feast included Pablo Fanque's Circus (as immortalised in John Lennon's "Being for the Benefit of Mr Kits" lyrics), Wild's Theatre, and the famous French tightrope walker Madame Saqui (who would have been in her mid-70s!).
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Thanks for this, Davey.
Haven't got access to my FH info at the moment, as I am away. Will look at the dates of the fairs, circuses with ref Hosetta'a dob when I get back when I get back.
What strikes me is that it seems as if there might have been something of a sincere rather than fleeting relationship between Hosetta's mother and the spaniard, as she called her baby Josetta (pronounced Hosetta in Spanish) which means "Jose's little girl". The father must have told her to call the child J/Hosetta. Being illiterate and certainly having no Spanish, she would have used the spoken version of the name.
Will reply in detail in a few days.
Thanks again.
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Holmfirth Feast looks to have been celebrated around the 3rd week in May, so presumably too early to fit with Hosetta's birth. Honley Feast tended to be the largest local one, attracting large numbers of visitors from neighbouring townships, and that began on 23 September 1860.
As a side note, I found another article from 1860 which confirmed that Madame Saqui (often "Salvi" in newspaper articles) was touring with Pablo Fanque's Circus that year, so at least it confirms that Pablo's Circus had European performers. Unfortunately the Huddersfield Chronicle's coverage of the Honley Feast for that year doesn't go into much detail, except to say that Pablo's Circus performed on the 24th & 25th September.
I've had a quick look for "Spanish", "Spaniard" and "circus" in the Huddersfield Chronicle for 1860, but unfortunately nothing jumped out.
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Pablo Fanque was apparently born William Darby, 30 March 1810 in Norwich, so not Spanish, but pretty interesting anyway...
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Have now got back to my FH notes and can supply Hosetta Wimpenny's dob as 4.6.1861, bap. 7.11.1861.
Not sure how this would fit in with any passing fairs or "feasts" and accompanying Spaniards, in the Holme Valley?
Hosetta was usually listed as Bottomley, her mother's married name m.1863, in census docs, being absorbed into her step-father's large brood of children.
However, on her marriage cert she is Wimpenny with no named father.
Still seeking our Spaniard...
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The local preacher might have been a 'fan' of the Old Testament prophet Hosea, and maybe her parents simply feminised the name after hearing it in sermons :-\
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Hosea
Carol
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You mentioned a genealogical DNA test earlier in the thread. Did it identify a significant proportion of Iberian? Have you found any DNA relatives (beyond close relatives) sharing the Iberian strand?
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Hello. I found this thread by googling ‘Spanish in Holmfirth history’ as I have similar mysterious Spanish names cropping up in my family tree. My great, great grandmother had siblings called German (pronounced Herman I believe) and Reyia, both of which have Spanish origins. They were born in 1851 and 1847 respectively, so not that long before your Hosetta. I haven’t found any indications of any further ‘spanishness’ of their parents, and their other six siblings have pretty normal names for the time. Interestingly, my grandmother on this line had very dark hair, dark eyes and skin, unlike the rest of the family, and my mother used to say ‘definitely some Romany in there’, although with nothing to back this up.
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Dacrepast - welcome.
Are you referring to the Battye family of Upperthong?
The relevant children seem to have been:
Kezia (not Reyia) Battye, mother’s maiden name Beardsell, Mar qtr 1846 Huddersfield
German Battye, mother’s maiden name Beardsell, Jun qtr 1850 Huddersfield
Parents were Elijah & Elizabeth, both Yorkshire-born. I can’t see anything that suggests Spanish heritage.
Kezia is a Biblical name - I see that it is mistranscribed as Reyia in 1861, but appears as Kezia or variant spellings in all other censuses for her.
Kezia Battye married Ebenezer Coldwell, 10 May 1868 at Upperthong.
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Ah, interesting, I had Keziah and Reyia down as different people; I had not picked up on it being a mistranscription. German is a Spanish origin name from what I can gather though - surprisingly enough!
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There are quite a lot of ‘German’ first names in Yorkshire (and elsewhere) if you look at births/censuses.
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The related Spanish name is Germán (with the emphasis on the second syllable) but German was known and used across Europe, including especially the Slavic countries. Although never hugely common in the UK you will see that it has had moderate use here - just type it into FreeBMD as a first name, without specifying a surname, and you will get a sense of that.
There are various saints named St Germanus who will no doubt have inspired some of the usage.
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Thanks for the info. I’d not come across its use as a first name before. How interesting. So probably no Spanish genes after all then!
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Maybe no Spanish, but in family history there are bound to be some interesting things to discover - hope you'll stick around on Rootschat now you've found us :)
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I will do, thank you!