RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Retriever on Saturday 05 January 19 15:27 GMT (UK)
-
Thanks to Ancestry, I have found the burial records of my ggrandfather's sister, her husband and daughter.
Grave number 803c contains the daughter who was the first to die, and her mother who was the last to die.
The husband is in grave 804c and his was the second death.
All the graves on the page, except for the last, have other names listed which have been crossed through in red ink, they are all in unconsecrated ground.
The last column on the page gives the name and address of the purchaser and the surnames are the same as the most recent deceased.
Does this mean that the grave space has been sold on with other bodies still there, in one case five previous burials?
-
In municipal cemeteries there are Purchased Graves where the applicant purchases the Exclusive Right of Burial in this grave, effectively forming a private grave and giving the family of the deceased control of any future burials in that grave. The owner of the Right must give written permission before any burial can take place in a purchased grave. The Exclusive Right has a fixed term - usually 100 years after which time control of the grave is returned to the relevant authority. Un-purchased Graves are also known as 'Common' or 'Public' graves. The relevant authority retains control of the burials in these graves. Burial Law used to require a 14 year interval between successive burials in one of these graves, (unless the deceased were from the same family), but this law has since been repealed.
Stan
-
Thank you for that Stan.
That leaves one question, why was the husband/father buried in a separate grave albeit the next one? Seems a bit odd as no-one has been buried in either since 1953.
I doubt I will ever find out.
-
I came across a similar situation in a section at Greenwich which has both old and modern graves, suggesting re-use going on -- two new identical design headstones next to one another with the same surname, so probably related, but only one or two names on each. A common form of "re-use" is to just fill unused places rather than undertake exhumations. But if you want a "family plot" you're likely to have to go for two side-by side.
Regrettably for genealogists and grave hunters, the names of the earlier interments rarely appear on the new headstones.
-
Thank you for that Chris. Do you think that means there might be headstones? There was no mention of that on the records.
With regard to the other names crossed through, I’m considering tracing them on FreeBMD and adding a note as to their burial details.
-
Unlike many other places, Queen's Road is well populated with gravestones and doesn't have depressing swathes of bare grass where gravestones have been moved aside to ease mowing (mainly because it has gravel rather than grass). So if there were headstones on your graves there's a good chance they're still there. Does the register have a column headed "Monument" or somesuch? See what it says for this one, which has headstone and kerbs: Frederick Vickerman Trenwith, d 2-Jan-1944 a 65, plot 592CA (the nearest to 803/4 I photographed).
I'm happy to go and look, but as I'm the other side of London, I'd prefer to leave it until the spring when lighter evenings will allow me to get more done.
-
Sorry for the delay in replying to you Chris.
Yes there is some writing in the right hand side column. Unfortunately it is obscured by the ancient sellotape.
it is very kind of you to offer to take a look for me, and if you are over there I would be very grateful.
Any time to suit you would be fine as there is no rush.
I will let you know the names and plot numbers if and when you plan to go.
Regards
-
This is such a helpful discussion and I think it may explain what I notice as well.
The 1905 and 1911 Cemetery Register for Queens Road Walthamstow, indicates the cemetery and graves for my great grandmothers, but on the Queens Rd Cemetery map there is another name on that plot. Is that because in more recent year, this was reused ?
Grave 1 A 797 should be Annie Young 10/20/1905, (I have OLD picture of tombstone), but indicates plot map indicates “Boxer” ? Same for 1 B 1930; Kirkham but plot map shows Allen. I’m coming from NYC in April to visit the family’s home village, and plan to pay my respects at their resting place. Any insight would be appreciated. Linda
-
I’ve found the record for Annie Young on Ancestry and the grave has been bought by the Boxer family.
I haven’t checked the other name.
-
Hello, that is wonderful information to confirm my thought about Annie Young plot.
My other great grandmother is Minnie Kirkham 1B1930 burried 3/1/1911 in section 34.
I am thinking that it was bought by the Allen family at some point.
I do have photo graphics taken I'd say pre-1930 of the headstones. I'm assuming they are no longer there but will check when I visit.
Thank you so much for the info. can't wait to visit. I've been able to find some of the old home addresses via census records, and will stay on Orford street, less than a mile from where they lived.
Root chat is wonderful. And i'm enjoying the other sites about the history of Walthamstow.
-
Hello, I've checked the other record for you.
Firstly it says Minnie Kirkham was buried 1901 not 1911 aged 53, and that George Edward Kirkham bought a headstone. Unfortunately the entire entry is crossed through in red.
The other two occupants are Dorothy Allan and Hilda Horder but the headstone was bought by Raymond Ellis.
I hope this helps.
-
Hello, I've checked the other record for you.
Firstly it says Minnie Kirkham was buried 1901 not 1911 aged 53, and that George Edward Kirkham bought a headstone. Unfortunately the entire entry is crossed through in red.
The other two occupants are Dorothy Allan and Hilda Horder but the headstone was bought by Raymond Ellis.
I hope this helps.
For info. from Anc*y from England & Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers, 1800-2016
it gives the date as 1911
Minnie Kirkham Age: 53
Death Place:12 Turner Road
Burial Date: 1 Mar 1911
Burial Place: Waltham Forest Greater London England
Cemetery: Queens Road Cemetery
Grave number:I B 1930
Interment Number:22438
Cemetery Notes: Consecrated
-
By an amazing stroke of luck, I happen to have a photo which includes the Allen headstone, the black one on the right below. Charles Allen is the first named. Sorry the quality is rather poor. I was actually trying to photograph the one in the middle with a square vase, and was fighting a low winter evening sun behind. However, it shows Linda what to look for and confirms our earlier suspicion that the crossings-out refer to grave re-use. I don't appear to have got near A.797.
@Retriever: I may get there in the not too distant future, though not immediately as the cemetery is still in winter early closing times, but please send me your relatives' details sometime.
-
Ladyhawk, I was looking at the Register of Grave Spaces and that gives the year of death as 1901. An error on someone's part.
Chris, the graves I am interested in are 803c and 804c, Doris and Ethel Clark and Aslett Clark.
I am a bit concerned re the removal of Minnie Kirkham's headstone. She died in 1911 but the plot appears to have been sold and her headstone removed in 1967/8. Surely if there was a headstone for her the plot must have been sold to her family, and 56 years seems rather a short time to elapse before re-sale.
Perhaps mine have been sold on.
-
Thank you everyone for your comments and research ! That is quite amazing chance that you (Chris) had a recent photo from plot 1B1930 with the Allen name. Also that my great grandmother Minnie, died on Feb 23rd, (1911) yesterday, the day we started discussing this. Kind of cool.
Many good family stories about this strong woman (Minnie Avis Kirkham). 6 children, the youngest, 1 yr when her husband (thomas) died at age 39. He was a Carman with the railway. She was allowed to place 3 of the younger boys in the Railway Servants Orphanage, until some were 14 years old, but they came home on holidays. She worked for the railway as a cleaner after her husbands death. (Both she and her husband died of TB. I have the bible given to one of her sons in 1902 when he left the orphanage at age 14.
Except for one of the children, all moved from Walthamstow by around 1930, arriving in Connecticut and Albany, NY area of USA.
Not sure I understand the rules for the 'reuse' of family graves and removal of headstones, but will be pleased to just visit Walthamstow and this cemetery, as well as St Mary's and other old landmarks.
I'm going to try to attach a headstone picture taken decades ago. It says "family" so I wonder if that has meaning.
-
Regrettably none of Retriever's Clarks appears in the MIs list on the Waltham Forest FHS website (http://records.wffhs.org.uk/QRC.html), which also contains the maps mentioned by Linda and current grave photos. There is a slight glimmer of hope in that C803 seems to have fallen down the crack between maps C16 and C17 and might have been missed, but I'm not hopeful.
I think the "Family Grave" on Minnie's headstone may have been a statement of intent, but the family sounds to have scattered widely, so it was never realised. This may also be why no one renewed the lease on the grave if the cemetery made such an offer and had the correct address to send it to.
-
Thank you everyone for the research. These explanations make sense. I look forward to visiting in April.
-
I have just come across a record that maybe be my Gt Grandfather Frank James Burton.. it is a register of a death 1906 grave number 436D Internment #18686 not consecrated is anyone able to help me with this record please The only record I have for him is a census record 1901 aged 46, then in 1911 census my Gt grandmother is stated as a widow. They were living in Stockport in 1901 and I am not sure if this cemetery is close to that area Thank you in advance Have spent many years now trying to find records of him