RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Somerset => England => Somerset Lookup Requests => Topic started by: johking on Friday 04 January 19 08:50 GMT (UK)
-
I'm not familiar with the Somerset records and am wondering about the children of George NORMAN and Ann BAGSHOT (later known as Bagehot), as found on FreeReg. https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_queries/5c2e99cd33045bea0ba4a52a
Our old family tree, which was "tidied up" in the 1930s, records the births to this couple as:
George [1782]
William [no date]
Charles [1783]
Priscilla [1785]
Maria [1785]
Alfred [1792]
Sarah [no date]
However, from FreeReg, does it appear to you that Ann Bagshot had TWO sets of twins in 1782 and 1783? Quite a start to child-rearing!
Or is there any possibility that children were "saved up" to be baptised later than their birth date? Have you ever come across that? According to FreeReg, the marriage was actually in 1776, with no record of baptisms before 1782.
Thanks very much!
Jo
-
Looking at the images for the parish records (Ancestry) :
June 1783 - September 1783 - there are 8 baptisms, only two of them are for single children, the other 6 entries are split between 3 families. There is no indication on the register that any of them are twins. Again there is no indication of twins in 1782.
It was not uncommon for children to be baptised in "batches".
-
Oh, that's very interesting, thanks so much, and makes much more sense than the twins notion.
According to the tree, Ann BAGEHOT was daughter of Rev Watson BAGEHOT, Rector of Langport, so it looks as though the batch baptisms happened even with close links to the ministry.
-
I am looking at the same tree right now! Ann Bagehot's father was Thomas Bagehot, her mother being Priscilla Ostler. Ann's brother was Robert (Codrington) Bagehot and it was Robert that married Mary Watson, so I am not sure why the Norman family tree says "Rev Watson Bagehot"
I also just found this regarding Thomas (from a document on the history of Langport)
Thomas Bagehot was trained in the nonconformist ministry and is supposed to have established a Socinian chapel in North Street at some date after 1747, attended by many of the borough's leading inhabitants
With a name like JohKing, looking at George Norman and Ann Bagehot, I guess you got there via John King (1799-1859) and his wife Anne Catherine Norman (1817-1876) - they are my 3rd great grand parents
I wonder what your version of the King "origin" story is ... I'm not convinced that John King and Captain Kell King were the same brothers as Dr John King (the other John King's grandfather) and his brother Francis King
Regarding the Norman family, at the top of the tree there's John Norman (1623-1668), the vicar of Bridgewater and his second wife Elizabeth Blake. John Norman is said to be a brother-in-law to Admiral Robert Blake (1598–1657), Robert never married but "Robert Blake was the first son of thirteen children born to Humphrey and Sara"
Here's a link to a PDF Blake family tree at the Bridgewater Museum
https://www.bridgwatermuseum.org.uk/museum-collections/index_htm_files/Blake_2.pdf (https://www.bridgwatermuseum.org.uk/museum-collections/index_htm_files/Blake_2.pdf)
At the very bottom left shows Sarah Blake and Ann Blake = John Norman
-
The Blake family tree suggests that it was Anne Blake that married John Norman
Anne was a daughter of Robert Blakes' brother, Humphrey Blake
There is evidence of Robert Blake, his brother Humphrey and John Norman all being involved in Bridgwater religion
Humphrey and Robert Blake and the town's recorder, Sir Thomas Wroth, were members of the (Presbyterian) classis in 1647, and John Norman, vicar 1647-60, was associated with a Presbyterian meeting from 1662
The Norman family tree shows John Norman as having married 1) Alleine and 2) Elizabeth Blake
The Dictionary of National Biography has this to say
He (John Norman) was the bosom friend of Joseph Alleine, the ejected vicar of Taunton, whose sister Elizabeth seems to have been his first wife. Norman was probably the 'Pylades' to whom Alleine, under the signature 'Orestes,' wrote a very remarkable 'Letter from Bath' on 12 Oct. 1668, smoothing over some 'jealous passages' which had occurred between the writer and his old friend and 'covenant Pylades' (Life of Alleine, 1822, p. 432, letter xxxvii.)
Is it possible that the Norman family tree got the details wrong, after all Elizabeth Alleine is only referred to as Alleine and the Blake tree suggests that it was Anne Blake, not Elizabeth Blake
The Dictionary of National Biography also states
He (John Norman) died at Bridgwater, and was buried at St. Mary's on 9 Feb. 1668-9. His wife Elizabeth had died in 1664, and he seems to have married a second wife, who survived him A son, John, born in 1652, matriculated from Exeter College, Oxford (8 May 1669). Henry Norman, master of Longport grammar school from 1706 to 1730, may have been the minister's grandson.
-
Great to get a repy to this after so long, and well sleuthed re John King and Anne Catherine Norman, though it is my husband's family tree not mine. Which of their many offspring are you descended from? (my husband is Norman through two of George Norman and Ann Bagehot's children, as his great grandmother and his great grandfather were second cousins).
Our Norman family tree starts at Adrian Norman, Rector of Trushan Devon, d 15 Dec 1653, and wife Joan and gives them as parents of 4 children including John. You make a very coherent case for the Elizabeth belonging to Alleine, and the second wife to be Anne Blake. I like that. I see that Blakes pop up further down the Norman tree too, wonder if they are related...
Re the Kings in Jamaica, our family tree has has John King and Captain Kell King at the top:
"Captain Kell King, R.N. married Miss Bryan, emigrated with John"
alongside
"Doctor John King, born circ 1740 and emigrated circ [gap] Married circ 1775 Elizabeth Briggs"
Then under that are 12 names shown as siblings, but only Francis King b 1778 and Elizbeth Briggs King are shown as having offspring. Francis and Letitia Ann Hall have 5 offspring, including our John King as above.
Is that the same as yours? I have never been able to substantiate any of the Dr John and Captain Kell King details. I would love to know where they came from originally. We have a letter with an oral memory they were from NE England...
In my experience, having two very detailed family trees on both sides of the family is a great luxury - very lucky indeed! You must feel the same.
-
In my research, I have found that if the marriage isn't between at least 2nd cousins or 1st cousins once removed then I've problem got the wrong people! :)
I'm guessing the second cousins that you are referring to are Alfred Norman King and Grace Mary Bagehot Norman ... and as you still have the King name ...does that mean your husband is either Ian or Graeme?
I'm descended from John King and Anne Catherine Norman's daughter Alice King
Dr John "Kell" King born 1735 married Elizabeth Biggs in 1760 in Jamaica, they had 12 children
The Kell name persist through descendants of Dr John King - e.g. a son was named Samuel Kell King
Dr John King had a brother Francis King b1742, he married Sarah Bryan and they had 7 children from 1768 onwards, all born in Jamaica - none of his descendants are given the Kell name
So I ask you, does it make sense that the two brothers that inherited some land in Jamaica and emigrated mid 1700s were called Doctor John King and Captain Kell King, or is there something wrong with the story?
I've seen three families that have the same history - descendants of three separate children of Dr John King and Elizabeth Biggs. via Francis King, Sarah Ann Smith King and Richard Cargill King.
It's odd as how many families would have such a precis history passed down the different children, it certainly wasn't a story made up by a later generation down just one of the children's lines, which might have been something done post abolition
Digging around there seems to be too many earlier Kings in Jamaica to explain the two Yorkshire King brothers inheriting land .... unless one of those earlier Kings wife decided she would be better of living in England with the boys
Dr John King and Francis King just seem a bit too successful or intermixed with prominent Jamaican families to have "just fallen of the boat" so to speak
There are also extensive links with French refugees from Saint Domingue (Now Haiti) - the De Gournay and Corre Desgouttes families.
Both Michel Raphael Issac De Gournay (1713-1813) and his wife Perrine Therese Elizabeth Chevolleau (1730-1802) had claims for property lost in Saint Domingue. Some of those properties are labelled "AF" (French for Family Association), often indicating shared ownership of the property with other families - one such property is called "KILL KING" (sic), but may have been Kell King
De Gournay emigrated to St Domingue between 1748 and 1759 and evacuated to Jamaica in 1794
-
This is the record for the John King that married Anne Catherine Norman
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/L2HX-JGC (https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/L2HX-JGC)
It's FamilySearch.org, which thankfully is free to use
-
Aha, "Cousin Katie" and James Dunn the architect?
That is absolutely fascinating about the King brothers and thanks for all the research you have done. The family tree we have does indeed look a bit unsure, with their names at the top but no indication of who produced the string of names in the next row of the tree.
The Jamaican records you mention seem to ensure that the Kell moniker belonged to Dr John King and I will have to update my records to suit. Was he the RN Captain as well I wonder, ie a medical doctor? ie the family tree knew there were two brothers and split up the naming knowledge they had?
It's been a while since I looked at all this stuff and I have just remembered I was kindly sent John King Sr's will (ie Dr John Kell King as I now know him to be) and right enough his brother Francis is mentioned - do you have that document?
You are yet to totally convince me that the 2 brothers didn't emigrate as in the legend. Counter argument - they were related to the Kings already in Jamaica and decided to go out to join them and make their fortune??
I've always assumed Kell is a surname and from the surname distribution map of 1881, the concentration is definitely in Yorkshire which would back up that side of the origin story. If it is a surname, it may be from a maternal line?
Very interesting about the French Haiti connection. John King's first wife was Henriette Louise Desouttes, according to the family tree. Is that a typo for Desgouttes do you think?
-
I am looking at the same tree right now! Ann Bagehot's father was Thomas Bagehot, her mother being Priscilla Ostler. Ann's brother was Robert (Codrington) Bagehot and it was Robert that married Mary Watson, so I am not sure why the Norman family tree says "Rev Watson Bagehot"
I also just found this regarding Thomas (from a document on the history of Langport)
Thomas Bagehot was trained in the nonconformist ministry and is supposed to have established a Socinian chapel in North Street at some date after 1747, attended by many of the borough's leading inhabitants
rand parents
"The character and reward of the faithful servant ....; on occasion of the much lamented death of the Rev. Thomas Watson" by Joshua Toulmin, published 1793
____________________________ DEDICATION
To the Congregation of Protestant Dissenters lately under the pastoral Care of the Reverend Thomas Watson;
To the Rev Thomas Watson, of Chichester, Mrs Mary Bagehot and Mr Jacob Watson his Descendants, and to Mr Mr Robert Bagehot, of Langport, Merchant, his Son in Law
the following Sermon is inscribed, as an unfeigned Token of cordial Sympathy with them, and a merited Tribute of Respect and Affection to his deceased Friend
by Thomas Toumlin, Taunton, March 16 1793
-
Thanks for that info about Rev Thomas Watson, I didn't know who Mary Watson's father was.
It sounds like some confusion in the Norman family tree - merging Thomas Bagehot and the Rev Thomas Watson
-
Aha, "Cousin Katie" and James Dunn the architect?
... That's right :)
I've not really found anything related to "Kell", useful to know it is a Yorkshire name
I've been using Bing AI for a lot of queries, it's a quicker way of find things but it threw a sulk when I tried to get it to search "Kill King" ... I'm probably on some terrorist watch list now!
I think the original records that I found on Family Search were created by Chris Codrington, as such the records for Dr John Kell King and Francis King already existed. I don't know if John King had Kell as a middle name but using the "Kell" moniker helps differentiate him from the other John King's in the line. I do have a copy of Dr John's will, that was the evidence that confirms that John's brother was called Francis
Kell remains a mystery name, it could be a maiden name somewhere up the line but at present we have no idea who John and Francis' parents were. I have found explanations for all the other middles names, Bryan, Bathurst, Smith, Stapleford and Rodon.
The Bryan, Rodon and Smith surnames are also prominent amongst the earlier Kings that I found
I've not found any direct (marital) links to the Cargill name, but in John's will he does refer to his very good friend Richard Cargill.
I believe that John King's first wife was Louise Henriette Corre Desgouttes, (the surname usually appears as just Desgouttes, but the full name is "Corre Des Gouttes"), daughter of Louis Corre Desgouttes and Victoire Michelle Aimee De Gournay. Victoire was one of the 10 children of Michel Raphael Issac De Gournay and Perrine Chevolleau. Another daughter, Marguerite Antoinette De Gournay married Louis' brother Charles Desire Corre Desgouttes
I'm not sure what happened to Louise Henriette Desgouttes - She was married to John King by 1822 and he married Anne Catherine Norman in 1836. Being catholic, I don't expect they divorced but I haven't found any death record. Her siblings ended up in New Orleans.
Michel and Perrine De Gournay's son, Pierre Bernard De Gournay is registered as the owner of a Stoney Hill Pen, Saint Andrew from 1821 to 1823. He married Maria Josephe Sophie Raccine.
They had two daughters, Annette Elizabeth Bernadine De Gournay and Eleanor Pauline De Gournay.
Annette De Gournay married Samuel Kell King, son of Dr John King
Her sister, Eleanor De Gournay married King Charles Williams, grandson of Dr John King
King Charles Williams was the son of Charles Williams and Mary King
Samuel Kell King was registered owner of a Stoney Hill in 1826
John King isn't registered for Stoney Hill until 1831, possibly when Louise Henriette Desgouttes died? The family history re the John King inheriting Stoney Hill via his first wife isn't the whole picture!
I thought the following was convincing evidence of the connection between John King and Louise Henriette Desgouttes
Marriage of Louis Marchand and Pauline Chevolleau 12th January 1822
Amongst those also signing there are L. H. King, L. Desgouttes, Victoire Desgouttes and J. P. Desgouttes.
The most likely person for L H King would be Louise Henriette Desgouttes, using her married name at the start of 1822
L Desgouttes would be Louise Desgouttes and Victoire (De Gournay) his wife - parents of Louise H
J P Desgouttes would be Louise's sister, Jeanne Pauline b1805
Marriage of Jeanne Desgouttes and Jean Branday - 3rd May 1828
The additional signatures include L. Desgouttes, Louis Desgouttes and John King
They would be Louis Desgouttes, the father, Louis Honore Desgouttes, the brother and John King, the brother-in-law.
Where was Louise Henriette King - it's her sister's wedding
Louis's wife, Victoire De Gournay died in 1826
-
Aha, "Cousin Katie" and James Dunn the architect?
My "signature" should have given that away :o
It lists the roots of my paternal grandparents - top half for grandfather, bottom half for grandmother. Left hand male, right hand female
These are the pairings for my paternal grandfather, top line his father, bottom line for his mother
Dunn / Clark m Smith / Guthrie -- Thomson / Scott m Robertson / Baxter
Ballantyne / Watson m Tait / Kyle -- King / Hall m Norman / Browne
So grandfather's parents were Dunn (m) married Ballantyne (F)
The Ballantyne (F) parents would be Ballantyne (M) and King (F)
The King (F) parents would be King (M) and Norman (F)
The King (M) parents would be King (M) and Hall (F)
The Norman (F) parents would be Norman (M) and Browne (F)
It took me a while to come up with the layout but it seems to work :)
-
Fantastic information, thank you so much! It has made my Jamaica info much richer and fuller.
I have always wondered why John King's first child is named Louise Henriette. It seems a bit off to call your first child with another woman after your first wife. But maybe Anne Catherine Norman knew her and liked her and her death was mourned by both of them. Have you any insights there?
The Public Profiler GB Names is here: https://apps.cdrc.ac.uk/gbnames/ - enter the surname KELL. I see they have now gone back to 1851 and Kell is even more concentrated then. It's been a useful tool for me over the years when looking for the first place to search for a family origin. I never got anywhere with Kell though, as the dates are early and I guess you would have to be lucky to hit some church records that fitted. And sadly John and Francis are not exactly rare (unless Kell cropped up as a middle name). Oh for an Ebenezer or the like!
(Just spotted your next post. That is a clever idea)
-
To be clear, my idea was to look for a King male married to a Kell female with children John and Francis. Or looking for Kell as a reference to a grandparent name might be also possible, which would be even more difficult.
There was also the other clue that they were supposed to come from a wealthy or noble family in some way. They tend to have better records so I had some hope there but never unearthed anything.
At least your records give a better idea of birth date than the old family tree, but I suspect it is a forlorn hope.
-
Presumably you've checked out
http://www.jamaicanfamilysearch.com/
-
There's nothing worse that trawling lots of records with many mentions of the King and Kingston for someone called King! ... I think that's one reason why I dived into the French people, three families with that ever so rare combination of the letters "GOU" in their surnames
I've seen some references suggesting that John King may have been born in Jamaica, in Manchioneal - that at least appears to be the primary area that they inherited property
Some records link to King christenings in Stretton, Rutland
Ballantyne lore has it that the Kings were of East Riding - between Scarborough and Whitby
-
I wonder whether there are connections with the family of Thomas King ("Slave trader")
Thomas King, 1735–1824, was co-founder of the firm Camden, Calvert and King
His father may be a Newark King and the family is thought to come from East Riding, Yorkshire
His sister Elizabeth King married a Jackson
Thomas King married Sarah Hall b1758 in Bridgetown, Barbados - her father was Harper Hall
One of Thomas and Sarah's children, Thomas Harper King married Elizabeth Catherine Hall
Elizabeth Catherine Hall was possibly born in Essequibo, Guyana
I had found an earlier / parallel set of Kings in Jamaica via the Halls.
Francis King b1772 married Letitia Ann Hall
Letitia's parents were James Hall and Margaret Mercy Rawleigh
Margaret's sister Teresia Ann Hobard Rawleigh married Vice Admiral Robert Jackson
Robert Jackson's brother Samuel Jackson married Elizabeth Sarah King (in 1798)
Elizabeth Sarah King was at least a 3rd generation creole (born in West Indies) based in Clarendon
Her grandfather Andrew King was born there c1683
The family is interesting as there are various surname connections with our Kings
Andrew's daughter Martha married Alexander Gray, their son Alexander Gray could be the father of Francis King's second wife Nancy Gray b1784
Andrew's son Robert King married Mary Rodon
Of Robert King and Mary Rodon
Rebecca Mary King married Andrew Gray in 1772
James King married Elizabeth Aldred, her mother may be Elizabeth King b c1735 in Lowestoft and m1752 in Haddiscoe, Norfolk
Why did Dr John "Kell" King and Elizabeth Biggs name their daughter Frances Rodon King b1782
-
Thanks for the mention re Jamaican Family Search - it has been useful, particularly the Malabre Manuscript (Malabre married into the DeGournay family)
The main problem is trying to find the name "King", some documents have Kingston on every entry :(
There were a couple of land grants that were of interest
In 1753 there was a grant of 300 (assumed) acres in Manchioneal to Peter King and family (4 in total)
In 1741, 300 acres in Manchioneal to James Bryan and family (7 in total)
In 1742, 300 acres in Manchioneal to Charles Bryan and family (1 in total, so not sure why "& family")
If our set of Kings is unconnected from all the others then I would assume Peter King and family died soon after arrival (as was the case with most of the whites that went to Jamaica) and that may be the land inherited by the brothers John and Francis King
-
There's nothing worse that trawling lots of records with many mentions of the King and Kingston for someone called King! ... I think that's one reason why I dived into the French people, three families with that ever so rare combination of the letters "GOU" in their surnames
Nothing better than keying a name into a search site and out pops dozens/hundreds of "your" rellies - all identified to a "T" - problem solved.
How different having to check/search and trawl through records to pick up any mention that might be relevant. This applies particularly the further back you go.