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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: flocklet on Friday 12 August 05 22:50 BST (UK)
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:)
Good morning to one & all.
I'm still on about my Francis Wenlock HOLTON. I have a copy of his will, dated 9 days before he died. He states he was in partnership with a Ferdinand Thomas as a glass & earthenware manufactureer. Is there any more information I can try & find from these details or not? I'm just trying anything & everything for this elusive fellow. I Still can't find his birth or parents. Running out of places? Anyway thank you for reading this. Kind Regards, Stella, Queensland, Australia ;D
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Hi,
A couple of ideas:
Have you obtained his death certificate? Sometimes this can have useful info.
I take it you have the name of at least one of his children -- do you have their birth certificate or baptism register? This should give the name of Richard's wife.
Is there a location given for the Holton/Thomas company?
best,
Mike
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Hi -- I've found a couple of things, but don't know if you might have them already:
A marriage between Francis W. Holton and Sarah Hornet? in 1806
Some insurance records in the name of Francis Wenlock Hilton (presumably a misspelling by the indexer) in 1833.
Let me know if this is of interest.
best,
Mike
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Mike, ;D
Thank you so much for replying! I have Francis & Sophia's marriage. It was by banns at St. Mary's Lambeth in 1823. Hder maiden name was CHANDLER. I know nothing of this family. Not long found that name. I have Francis's death certificate, tells me not a lot? The informant was a Evan Williams, who lived at 16 Beswick Street, Don't know the significance of him yet. They had 7 children, I have no birth certificates of any yet. Between them, they have moved 3 times!
As for the last bit, MIke, yes I'm definately interested in the Insurance records, (it's too much of a coincidence with the middle name of Wenlock). Once again Mike, thanks alot, look forward to the info. Cheers, Stella ;D
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Hi,
The marriage record I have is different -- it's between
Francis W Holton & Sarah Hornet, 1806, Kensworth Hertfordshire
The insurance records can be found on
http://www.a2a.org.uk/
If you choose to 'Search A2A', then select 'Guildhall Library' in the archive location, and put 'Francis Wenlock' as the search term, that should give you the info.
Mike
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Hi Mike,
thank you for your help in the insurance papers, re Francis Holton, I'm in the process of getting an 'estimate' to have copies of them sent!via A2A. Cheers. On the marriage of Francis & Sarah Hornet, that you have, does it give you any other info at all? Now I'm curious to that one!! Once again many thanks for your time & trouble.kind regards, Stella. ;D
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Hi,
Good luck with the insurance records. In fact, please do post here when you get them, because I'd be interested to know how much info they contain.
As you get back towards the C18, info on the occupation and exact location of your ancestor becomes much more important -- mainly because people moved around much less and trade becomes a better indicator of where they came from.
It might be worth checking early London trade directories to see if the business was listed.
No other info on the 1806 marriage -- it will probably be in the main church in Kensworth.
One thing you can proably rely on is that the maiden name of Francis' mother or grandmother was Wenlock.
best,
Mike
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Hello again Mike,
Many thanks for your added knowledge, it does help alot. I'll keep looking for any early trade directories re: partnership. I think that the maiden Wenlock is a pretty good bet for further back female rellies. I know they're there somewhere along the line! Once again many thanks, & I'll let you know how I get on with the Insurance papers from A2A.
Cheers & kind regards, Stella ;D
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Re Francis Holton who married Sarah Hornet. Francis is an ancestor of my wife. Francis married Sarah Hornet 7 April 1806 at Knebworth, Hertfordshire. Sarah was the daughter of James & Elizabeth Hornet, she was baptised 18th July 1779 at Knebworth.
Issue of Francis & Sarah Francis Holton baptised 8 Feb. 1807 Datchworth. He married 5 June 1830 Welwyn, Herts to Elizabeth Overall, daughter of James & Ann Overall, nee Ives
Elizabeth Overall was baptised 16 July 1809 at Ardley, Herts.
This Holton family stayed in the Datchworth/Welwyn/Tewin area right through to the present time, my my wife (a Holton)
was born 1939 in Welwyn Garden City.
Hope this is of interest to you. Cheers Hatter.
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Hello Hatter,
Thanks for your post. Unfortunately I don't think your wife's relatives are related to mine. I have Francis Wenlock HOLTON marrying a Sophia CHANDLER. by banns 9th Sep, 1823 in Lambeth.All their children were given the middle name of WENLOCK. I just recently found a Richard Wenlock HOLTON death in Holy Trinity in Chelsea in 1806, he was married to a Frances FARRAND.This could be Francis's father?
The plot carries on !
Kind Wishes
Stella :)
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Stella,
I found another record that might be interesting.
In Perry's Bankrupt and Insolvent Gazette:
assignment of Francis Wenlock Holton from 19 April 1836.
HOLTON Wenlock Francis (April 4) of Brixton Hill, general shopkeeper -- Trustees, Richard Carter, of Goswell St, cheesemonger, and William Cornell of High St, Southwark, grocer -- sol. Loughborough, Saint Thomas's St.
An assignment when a person is insolvent and assigns their property to trustees.
best,
Mike
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Mike,
You're amazing ;D
How do I find this information please?This Brixton area seems to be the base for my fellow Francis. I then went & had a partnership with a Ferdinand Thomas, who I've found nothing on. Seems he was a game bloke though, to go insolvent (is that bankrupt?) then start again.
Looking forward to hearing from you. I wish I could find something of interest for you though :(
Thanks, Stella
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I don't know if you have this or whether it is relevant ................
1851
15 St Bride St, Liverpool
Ferdinand THOMAS head mar 64 proprietor of houses b.Exmouth Devon
Rosetta wife 40 b.Walworth Kent (it should be Surrey)
Eliza PALMER 4 visitor b.Stafford
HO107/2182 folio 316 page 12
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From "The Times" ................... Ferdinand Thomas Esq. died at 16 Noel Road, Edgbaston, Birmingham (late of London) 16 March 1859 in his 73rd year.
Casalguidi
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Casalguidi,
No I did'nt have this information. Any help is much appreciated, maybe this explains why I have never been able to find old Ferdinand, as London is quite a way to Birmingham. I wonder where these 2 met, to be going into business for a short while? The plot thickens lovely. Thank you ever so much, I'll ponder this new information.
Stella ;D
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Hi Stella,
I'm not absolutely certain where assignment records are located, but I expect they are held with bankruptcy records which are at the National Archives. If you go here:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp
and go down to 'bankrupts and insolvent debtors 1710-1869', that should give more info. My own experience of bankrupt records is that they are very patchy: in many cases there is little of much real interest, in others there is a full case file. (having said that, I was looking at C18 bankrupts, and I expect records get better the later you get later)
Mike
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I've done a bit more searching and found another item in Perry's Bankrupt & Insolvent Gazette.
25 Feb 1831
Dissolution of partnerships:
SCOTT Adam & Francis Wenlock Holton, of Brixton-hill, grocers, & c. 31st Jan -- Debts, &c. by F. W. Holton
Also notable, is 1848
Dissolution of partnerships:
SCOTT Adam and John THORPE, grocers, 72 Bishopsgate St, within, 3rd Jan Debts by A. Scott.
It seems Adam Scott was not an ideal business partner!
Incidentally, do you know who Francis' parents were, or where he was living before Brixton? If not, I have a suggestion ...
Mike
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Mike,
That's brilliant! I'll look through the National Archives, (I've got to go to work today, what a pain!!). Maybe Mr Scott was like our Christopher Skase!! I havae nothing of Francis's birth. I'm still trawling though London's church Registers, I'll be there for a couple of years I reacon, unless some other info comes to light. He married in St.Mary's Lambeth, baptised children there, (checked there, church too young) Mfoved then to Brixton, Merton, then Brixton. The Sun Insurance papers (thanks Mike) state he was in Brixton 1831, then in 1841 just before he dies he is in Piccadilly! A few weeks ago I found a Richaard Wenlock Holton death aged 56 in 1806 in Holy Trinity in Clapham. Hav'nt any more on him yet.
Thanks ever so much Mike for your idea's & help.Appreciate it heaps. ;D
Stella
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Hi,
Well my suggestion is this.
When I was looking through some trade directories, I didn't spot Francis Holton, but I did find in the 1790:
George Holton, grocer and tea dealer, 143 Holborn Hill
and in Kent's Directory 1769:
Wade Holton, 36 Holborn
Kent's 1763 and 1759:
Wade Holton, grocer, Fetter Lane, near Holborn
I should add that these are the ONLY traders called Holton in these directories.
I have no idea if they are related, but I see on the National Archives site there is a PCC will for George Holton, grocer and tea dealer. It might be worth taking a look at this.
best,
Mike
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Mike,
Thank you so much for your invaluable help. I do appreciated the time you've taken to look up those directories. Wade is an unusual name is'nt it. I'll give George a go on the will.
I meant to say on previous post, that I find half the battle for clues is knowing what terminology to put in the searches, I always seem to go for the simple search. I suppose time & practice, I'll find more. :-\I'll let you know how I go with this one.
Thanks again,
Stella
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Hi Mike,
Have downloaded the will of George Holton, it does not look promising. It's quite a long will, (going cross-eyed trying to read it!), he states his four children, a Elizabeth Ann, Sarah, John Payce, & Maria. I looked at the IGI, these children are born between 1785 & 1794. No mention of Wenlock in there anywhere, so I'm not sure he is related? I tried a George with father of Richard on the IGI, closest I came was 1725 in Berkshire. No good, as Richard was born approx. 1750. So it looks like back to the drawing board.
But, thank you Mike for your taking the time to look around for these elusive people!
Thanks again, :)
Stella