RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: saw119 on Saturday 15 December 18 15:22 GMT (UK)
-
I go round and round on this subject always trying to find new information to illuminate and understand the life of a clerk and his family in the above time period. He was a clerk/book keeper for the canals and then the railways living on the border between St Pancras and Camden Town (modern day Plender street), just east of Regents park. I find myself endlessly fascinated by this period, this place and their lives. I'm just open to thoughts, musings, speculation and book recommendations. Although I have a vague idea what clerks did and that they were reasonably well paid I always crave more.
-
"Well paid"? I wouldn't have thought they were well paid.... or of any real social status.... They probably felt that they were a little above the people who worked with their hands, but may not have had better earnings, and almost certainly would have felt that they had to try and keep up a "genteel" social front....
-
They would be in a rather difficult situation,although of low social standing they would be expected to be a little more “genteel” than blue collar workers.
Keeping up appearances ,well they would try but were poorly paid and as they needed to be reasonably well dressed , well the men in the offices would be, they had an extra expense above a manual worker.
But for the women,not having to wash filthy overalls etc would be a little advantage.
Try reading “The History of Mr. Polly”. I seem to remember H. G . Wells.
Also George and Weedon Grossmith’s. “History of a Nobody”.
I stand to be corrected on a couple of things there.
Viktoria.
-
Try reading “The History of Mr. Polly”. I seem to remember H. G . Wells.
Also George and Weedon Grossmith’s. “History of a Nobody”.
I stand to be corrected on a couple of things there.
Viktoria.
Take into account that these novels were set & published late 19th-early 20thC.
There are clerks in Dickens' novels (mid 19thC), e.g. Bob Cratchit, Uriah Heap. There may be some clerk characters in novels set earlier in 19thC but none spring to mind.
Some members of one of my families were clerks and book keepers in Manchester and Preston, Lancashire, mid 19thC. They were 4 brothers, (born 1793-1803), who had previously had their own businesses, then for various reasons needed to earn wages. Their father was "gentleman" in 1830's poll books, having retired from his successful business. His widow and 2 unmarried daughters were of independent means on 1841 census. Another daughter married a doctor. One son was a clerk at the coal wharf, one book keeper at a brewery and one a solicitor's clerk.
-
Yes Maiidenston as usual I rushed in,without taking in the dates.
Dickens by far the best source for the period.
Thank you.
Viktoria,
-
Put bookkeeper in search box at top of page to find more threads about the occupation.
-
Thanks everybody. My presumptions had always been that clerk was a reasonably well paid position as a clerk had to be literate and numerate. I'd never really considered the aspirational nature of being upper working class/lower middle class and the pressures attendant on that. I find it interesting that Dickens has Bob Cratchitt live in Camden Town which is the same area of London as my clerk, perhaps it was well known for clerks?
-
Some information on these websites.
The Victorian Web - Literature, history and culture in the age of Victoria:
Wages and cost of living in Victorian era
Includes cost of living for a senior clerk 1844.
www.victorianweb.org/economics/wages2.html
The Victorian History Blog
The Victorian Middle Classes
https://www.bl.uk/victorian-britain/articles/the-victorian-middle-classes
The Victorian Era
www.victorian-era.org/the-victorian-era-wages-salary-earnings.html
A few points I gleaned from a cursory reading. It's difficult to calculate the worth of wages. Servants were low paid but many had free accomodation, meals and working clothes. Clerks were expected to be neatly dressed at their own expense. Labourers' clothing costs weren't high - their weekday attire was hard-wearing but could be shabby - they didn't need to keep up appearances.
-
Thanks everybody. My presumptions had always been that clerk was a reasonably well paid position as a clerk had to be literate and numerate. I'd never really considered the aspirational nature of being upper working class/lower middle class and the pressures attendant on that. I find it interesting that Dickens has Bob Cratchitt live in Camden Town which is the same area of London as my clerk, perhaps it was well known for clerks?
Clerks, in my understanding had a slightly higher social standing than say a labourer because of being educated. However they were not well paid and had greater expenses. I also get the impression they were often not particularly well treated (obviously employer dependent), no employment rights in those days.
-
Perhaps wrongly, I always assume things were worse the further back one goes, rather than better.
My late Father in Law, born in the early 1920's, started his working life as a clerk at a bank. He used to tell us of how they would sit, in very dim light, (candles obviously during Regency times,) using dip pens to enter the figures into ledgers. They were not allowed to go home until they had balanced to the exact 1/4d.
I can imagine clerks spent most of their working lives being perished during cold weather, as when sitting still all day, one does feel the cold terribly.
-
I can imagine clerks spent most of their working lives being perished during cold weather, as when sitting still all day, one does feel the cold terribly.
That reminds me of a clerk wearing fingerless gloves in a film or tv version of "Christmas Carol" or another Dickens' novel.
-
I can imagine clerks spent most of their working lives being perished during cold weather, as when sitting still all day, one does feel the cold terribly.
That reminds me of a clerk wearing fingerless gloves in a film or tv version of "Christmas Carol" or another Dickens' novel.
In that respect Dickens has alot to answer for!
-
In that respect Dickens has alot to answer for!
He sure does. I recall being frightened by certain scenes or characters in tv and film versions of "Great Expectations" and "The Old Curiosity Shop".
-
In that respect Dickens has alot to answer for!
He sure does. I recall being frightened by certain scenes or characters in tv and film versions of "Great Expectations" and "The Old Curiosity Shop".
Ooo yes,when Magwitch the escaped convict comes from behind a tombstone
when Pip is visiting his mother’s grave,had nightmares for years,Great Expectations.
Also a film with Ingrid Bergman and I think Michael Wilding,”Under Capricorn”, a shrunken headis played at the bottom of the bed, inbetween the sheets,I slept with my knees drawn up for years.
Viktoria.
-
Thread necromancy here but this subject still consumes me. It's recently been rekindled and I've been obsessed with it these past few days. I wish I could pin my clerk down as well. I assembled a list of his stated occupations from census, marriage and baptism records and this is what resulted:
1840 Book Keeper
1844 Delivery Clerk
1846 Carriers Clerk
1849 Public Clerk
1851 Railway Clerk
1857 Carriers foreman
1859 Railway Clerk
1861 Public Clerk
1871 Commercial clerk
Some of these are compatible with each other but some aren't and it has me tearing my hair out at times. I just want to know everything about this man's life and I simply cannot. I've come to the conclusion, based on advice from the NRM, that he worked for the LNWR based at Euston station from 1850-1860 ISH but that Carriers Foreman in 1857 is a bit of a curveball. I can reconcile it if I squint hard enough. I just really wanted a space to offload my thoughts.
-
The term clerk covers a multitude of sins. In the 20th century clerk was used in railway and local government terminology to cover a variety of administrative roles below management grades.
A railway clerk at Euston could well have worked on commercial freight. In the days before HGVs, goods would be carried to major stations then transported on from there. He could well have switched between a clerical role in the railway freight offices to one with an onward carrier.
-
The term clerk covers a multitude of sins. In the 20th century clerk was used in railway and local government terminology to cover a variety of administrative roles below management grades.
A railway clerk at Euston could well have worked on commercial freight. In the days before HGVs, goods would be carried to major stations then transported on from there. He could well have switched between a clerical role in the railway freight offices to one with an onward carrier.
That's a good, and interesting, thought. I'm glad you suggested it.