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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: Debra on Monday 02 August 04 03:23 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find ANY records, for the Cowan Family.
Father: John Cowan born 1850.
Mother: Agnes nee Smith born 1864
and children:-
Margaret b 1884
Agnes b?
Jessie b?
Mary b?
Hetta b?
Jemima b 15.05.1896
John b 30.03.1897
James Gilmore b 20.02.1901
I believe that 2 of the daughters came to Australia first, then the rest of the family, followed. I have no marriage records for John and Agnes nor do I have birth records for them. I believe that they lived (near the beach) at Troon, if that is any assistance.
I believe that the family came to Australia, some time before WW1.
Many thanks
Debra
Qld Australia
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hi debra,
following up on your post, i wonder if you have any new information yet regarding your family?
i have done a little research into your john cowan
john cowan was the son of hector and margaret gilmore, on the igi's is their marriage(8/6/1836)(extracted) all the records are extracted unless say sub(submitted, so cannot be trusted as true but here they are anyway)all christening dates
the cowan children from troon
jane...6/5/1838
margaret...5/4/1840
james...13/7/1842(sub)
barbara gilmore...22/8/1844
janet burns...15/10/1848
john...28/4/1850
andrew and mary are not on the igi's that i can see.
there is also a sumitted entry for the death of jane(1838) in glasgow for the 17/10/1897
1841 census-portland street, troon, dundonald
hector...age 26...grocer & spirit dealer
margaret...age 26
andrew...age 5
jean...age 3
margaret...age 1
1851 census-portland street, troon, dundonald
hector...age 38...wine & spirit merchant...born coylton
margaret...age 40
andrew...age 14
margaret...age 11
james...age 8
barbara...age 6
mary...age 5
jessie...age 2(i believe this to be janet burns)
john...age 1
all born troon unless stated otherwise
census details from freecen
now back to hector cowan, i believe that he is the son of andrew cowan and jean walker, who married in coylton 8/3/1797(extracted) all the igi's are submitted so cannot be trusted.
the cowan children, all born coylton
john...1801
william...1804
charles...1806
david...1809
hector...1812
margaret...1815
thomas...1823
here is the family on the 1841 census
1841 census-west drumsuy, coylton, ayrshire
andrew...age 70...farmer
jane...age 60
charles...age 35...ag labourer
janet...age 35
david...age 30...ag labourer
thomas...age 15...ag labourer
andrew...age 13...ag labourer
janet...age 2(no idea what the relationship is??)
i believe that margaret gilmore was the daughter of james gilmore and jean ritchie.
james and jean ritchie had their banns read twice on the 2/12/1796 at dundonald and symington.
all the children's details are extracted from the igi's
gilmore children all born dundonald(troon)
elizabeth...christened...25/9/1797
james...christened...25/6/1799
mary...christened...6/2/1801
elizabeth...christened...20/6/1803
barbara...christened...11/6/1805
jean...birth...19/12/1807
margaret...christened...6/2/1810
david...birth...24/2/1812
james...birth...28/6/1814
jean...birth...5/12/1816
a quick look at the 1841 census for the gilmore family shows them to be in portland street, troon also.
i hope some kind soul follows up with the census details of the families debra.
always searching
Joe
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Hello Joe,
I must apologise for not replying earlier, but I have only just found the posting. Thank you so very much for all of that information. Haven't yet had an opportunity to look carefully through it all but you have gone to so much trouble. Thank you so very much you assistance is greatly appreciated.
Bye for now.
Deb
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hi deb,
1901 census- 8 west portland street, troon
john...age 50....dairy-man
agnes...age 38
margaret...age 16...stationer shop girl
agnes....age 15...baker shop girl
jessie...age 11
mary...age 9
hector...age 7
merron...age 5
john...age 4
james...age 2 months
1891 census- 8 west portland street, troon
john...age 40...dairy-man
agnes...age 27
margaret...age 6
agnes...age 5
jessie...age 1
hector...age 79...dairy-man
looks like john married agnes around 1884, their marriage details will be on sp, i reckon your agnes smith was the daughter of archibald and mary cochran.
1881 census- back temple hill, troon
hector...age 68...publican
john...age 27...commercial clerk
mary...grand-daughter...age 18....female servant...born monkton
1871 census- portland street, troon
hector...age 59...spirit trader
margaret...age 59
margaret elliot...grand-daughter...age 5
1861 census- 18 portland street, troon
hector...age 49...spirit merchant
margaret...age 50
andrew...age 24
jane...age 22
margaret...age 21
james...age 18...iron monger clerk
barbara...age 16
mary...age 15
jessie...age 13
john...age 11
if you confirm the birth details of your agnes we can then locate the family on the census giving you a whole view of your family tree, leaves included.
Joe
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would you believe it deb!!!
hector's father andrew was on the 1851 census
hector's mother jean walker made it to the 1861 census!!
great news eh?
i hope andrew made it past 1855 as you will be able to get a death cert from sp and that will confirm his parents and take you back a further generation, andrew was born 1769.
jean walker was born around 1776 and there is an extracted igi that may be her
jean...christened...july 1776 dau of james and margaret caruthers, her death cert will confirm this.
and their farm west drumsuie in coylton may still be in existance...
1851 census- west drumsuie farm, coylton
andrew...age 82...farmer of 80 acres
jane...age 75
charles...age 43
david...age 41
thomas...age 27(married janet 17/4/1849)
john...grand-son...age 26...mechanic...born dundonald
andrew...grand-son...age 23...born dundonald
janet...daughter in law...age 25...domestic duties (wife of thomas, nee somerville)
andrew...grand-son...age 5 months. (son of thomas...born 23/10/1850)
1861 census- west drumsuie farm, coylton
jean...age 85
Joe
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Hello again Joe,
Thank you so very much for all of those census details. I have received, Agnes Smith and John Cowans marriage certificate, Johns parents were Hector Cowan (dairyman) West Portland Street Troon and Margaret Gilmore who had died at the time of John and Agnes' marriage on 13th April 1888. Agnes' parents were James Smith nailmaker Prestwick Road Newton, Ayr and mother Margaret Dick. Register was signed on 3rd May, 1888 at St Quivox.
You have given me so much valuable information, I can't begin to thank you. Have had all sorts of trouble trying to sort out my Cowans until now.
Bye for now,
Deb
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Hello again Joe,
I have just noticed on the marriage certificate, that James Smith was dec'd at time of John and Agnes Cowan's marriage
Deb
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hi deb, finding it hard to relate agnes to james and margaret dick.....
have you agnes's birth cert or the parents marriage cert
making me wonder if the parents were married...
Joe
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Hi Joe,
Have now found Andrew Cowan and Jean Walkers marriage, Hector Cowan's birth as well as marriage records to Margaret Gilmour. Have had less success finding marriage for James Smith and Margaret Dick, although I have a couple of hundred Margaret Dick marriages to sort through yet.
Thanks so much for your help
Deb
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Hello again Joe,
Well my Smith family really are turning out to be a problem. You said that you were having trouble tying them together, well, I have searched the scotlands people website and have begun to think that Agnes Smith b abt 1864 was child of Robert Smith and Agnes Dick. I have found a death record for a Margaret Smith, husbands name Robert, maiden name Dick. Now Robert and Agnes Smith had a daughter Agnes in 1865, but I haven't yet found the birth records. Marriage records for the period have only one Smith/Dick marriage in the area, that is for Robert and Agnes not James and Margaret date of marriage, 9th June 1859 at the same church as Agnes Smith married John Cowan in 1888, St. Quivox.
When Agnes Smith married John Cowan in 1888, James/Robert was already deceased, but the address for Agnes/Margaret on the marriage certificate is Prestwick Road, Newton, Ayr
Perhaps you can tie them all together with this new information. Here's hoping anyway, I am totally lost by now.
Thanks again for your time,
Deb
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Just wanted to post a separate message thanking you so very much for all of the effort you have gone to for me looking up all of those details for me
Deb
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hi deb,
have you come across the death cert yet of your agnes cowan?
wonder what parentage is mentioned?
Joe
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Hi Joe,
Yes I have Agnes Cowan's death certificate. The family emigrated to Australia in 1915 and Agnes died in Brisbane bur 28.04.1943. I have been told by the Queensland registry office that the details that go into the death certificates is gleaned from the family members memories. If there is a mistake made by the family in giving the info, then the certificates will reflect this.
I personally have had a certificate that stated that a John Hall had a father named Charles and since John had a son Charles, amongst others I had no reason to doubt the info. When I finally found marriage records for John Hall his father was actually named George, the name of another son. I contacted the Registry office who relayed the family info story and to believe the UK marriage record before the death certificate.
Clear as mud?
Thanks again,
Deb
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Hi Deb
Joe has asked me to have a look at this thread :)
Could I ask whether you have a birth cert for Agnes Smith? and what is the birthplace that she gives in the censuses, Joe? It's unclear .
Regards
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
My Smith family is a bit of a puzzle. I have a marriage certificate for my gg grandparents John Cowan and Agnes Smith. Married 1888 at St Quivox. On the marriage certificate, I have Agnes Smith's parents as James Smith nailmaker decd and Margaret nee Dick living at Prestwick Road, Newton Ayrshire. I have searched the Scotlands people website for their marriage and the only one that I can find for the area and same time frame is a Robert Smith marrying an Agnes Dick also marrying at St Quivox. Later I searched for death records for Agnes Smith and didn't find one in that name but found one for a Margaret Smith nee Dick who had husband listed as a Robert Smith. Now, Robert Smith and Agnes Dick had a daughter that I have found on the igi born 1865 but haven't yet found that birth amongst the hundreds of Agnes Smith births I have so far sorted through on the Scotland's people website.
So that is my dilema, are James and Robert the same person and is Margaret really Agnes? There were lots of Agnes' in the family line even through to today.
Haven't yet searched for death records for Robert but have looked briefly for James with no success. Must have been some time between 1864/5 and 1888 when he was decd on marriage cert.
Hoping you can assist me with my quandry.
Deb
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Gadget,
Forgot to tell you that Agnes and John Cowan emigrated to Australia in 1915 and although I have her death cert ( which for the life of me I can't find at the moment) but she was bur in Brisbane 28.04.1943. I have been in contact with the Queensland Registry Office who tell me that the info on death cert is gleaned from the family at the time of the death and if there are any mistakes given, then the cert will reflect the info given by the family. When I spoke to the Registry office people they told me that the UK marriage cert would be more reliable and to believe the info on the Uk cert first.
Deb
Deb
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Hi Deb
This is all very strange. I have been looking for a birth registration for Agnes (smith or Dickie) and so far can find nothing in Troon, which is her consistent birthplace on the later censuses.
I have looked at the 1871 census and can only come up with 2 Agnes - one (born circa 1865, Troon) with parents Archibald and Mary, living Troon. Archibald was a labourer. The second, sadly, was a pauper at Cuninghame poorhouse, Irvine, born. circa 1863, Stewarton.
Did you find anything about her on the 1881, Joe?
Gadget
John Smith
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hi deb, gadget
at the moment i am going down the line of andrew(son of hector/brother of john) looking for any clues.
**andrew married mary guthrie 8/8/1861 monkton
1871 census- crown inn, monkton and prestwick
john guthrie...age 78
andrew cowan...age 34...labourer
mary cowan...age 32
mary cowan...age 10...born 25/10/1861 coylton
hector cowan...age 9...born 6/10/1862 coylton
john guthrie cowan...age 7...born 2/12/1864 monkton
andrew cowan...age 5...born 9/3/1867 monkton
robert cowan...age 2...born 1/9/1869 monkton
1881 census- 3 mossvale lane, paisley
andrew...age 46...labourer
mary...age 43
(mary as you know is with her grandparents)
(hector is away from home)
john...age 17...flesher
andrew...age 14
robert...age 12
jane reid cowan...age 9...born 16/1/1872 monkton
margaret...age 6...born monkton
jessie...age 2...born paisley
1881- census- humeston farm, maybole, (farmer adam hannah)
hector...age 18...farm labourer
1891 census- 7 mossvale street, paisley
andrew...age 56...gardener
mary...age 52
mary...age 27...domestic servant
(hector now married)
(john now married)
andrew...age 23...labourer
robert...age 21...joiner
jane...age 19...weaver in factory
margaret...age 17...millworker
jessie...age 11
barbara...age 9...born paisley
1891 census- 2 albert street, paisley
john...age 25...coal merchant
margaret...age 23
janet...age 3 months
1891 census- danduff cottage house, maybole
hector...age 28...farm labourer
elizabeth...age 27
mary...age 4
elizabeth...age 2
1901 census- 13 wardrop street, paisley
andrew...age 63...gardner
mary...age 62
andrew...age 28...labourer
barbara...age 19...paper mill worker
1901 census- burnside cottage, maybole
hector...age 38...farm labourer
elizabeth...age 37
mary...age 14...farm servant
elizabeth...age 12
robert...age 8
andrew...age 6
jessie...age 4
hector...age 2
1901 census- 7 mossvale street, paisley
john...age 36...labourer
margaret...age 33...born kirkcaldy
janet...age 10
mary...age 9
helen...age 7
margaret...age 6
john...age 4
david...age 2
1901 census- 8 clavering street, paisley
robert...age 29...joiner
rachel...age 26
mary...age 2
margaret...age 4 months
would you believe after all that, still no clues......
was oor agnes smith born out of wedlock!!!!
Joe
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The only Agnes Smith, born Troon (Dundonald parish) and registered around that time is the one who's parents are Archibald and Mary. There is an agnes smith on the 1881 but working as a servant, b. 1864, Stewarton. I'm wondering if she was the little pauper girl that I found on the 1871 :(
Gadget
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Hello Joe and Gadget,
Will go into the registry office on Monday morning and get another copy of Agnes' death certificate. When I receive the certificate I will contact you with the information that it contains. Don't think there is much more that we can work out until I have more details,hopefully, the death cert will contain the correct details..................
Thank you both so very much for your time,
Deb
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Hello again Joe and Gadget,
I went into the registry office today, no luck there. Father only listed as SMITH no forename. No mothers name listed. I was so dumbfounded, although I asked the lady to check the place of birth, I forgot to ask about it again. The certificate should arrive in the next week of so, so until then,
thanks again for your time,
Deb
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Hello again Joe and Gadget,
Well the certificate has finally arrived. States place of birth as Falkirk, Scotland. Is that any help?
Thanks again,
Deb
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Hi Deb
Falkirk is a way from Ayrshire on the other side, between Glasgow/Stirling and Edinburgh , if you have a map.
However, I do recall seeing something on the censuses. I'll take a look later. Have to be out this morning.
I'll get back to you.
Regards
Gadget
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Hi Deb
The IGI and Scotlands People have two Agnes Smiths born Falkirk or Falkirk Landward:
10 July 1863 Falkirk Burgh. Parents - Charles Smith and Jane Morton
11 August 1866 Falkirk Landward. Parents - James Smith and Mary Thomson
The children that Joe listed from the 1901:
margaret...age 16...stationer shop girl
agnes....age 15...baker shop girl
jessie...age 11
mary...age 9
hector...age 7
merron...age 5
john...age 4
james...age 2 months
Using Scottish naming conventions, John's parent's were Hector and Margaret so I'd say that it's most likely that Agnes was the 1866 birth with parents James and Mary.
Hope this is of some use.
Regards
Gadget :)
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Hi Gadget,
Thanks so much. I will work from there and see how I go. I appreciate your time and efforts.
Deb
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Hi Deb
I've been reviewing the info that you have, including the marriage certificate. One thing of interest is that one of the witnesses was an Annie Smith. This is possibly a sister or other relative. it might be worth pursuing this and a possible Margaret Smith, mother, on the 1881 and 1891 censuses.
Gadget