RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: pharmaT on Saturday 08 December 18 18:56 GMT (UK)
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I have been researching for over 18 years now. A large proportion of my research is in Scotland so I have been to New Register House several time and more recently SP centre at the Mitchell Library because it is less travelling for me.
Over the years I have put a lot of effort into gettin my tree as accurate as possible. Obviously being human I have made mistakes but I correct them when I can. I have always been quite obsessive about having as many sources as possible for each 'fact'. When I only have one piece of evidence for something I have made a point of annotating my tree that there is limited evidence. Although my tree is still something I consider a work in progress I was starting to become quite proud of all I had done and learned and actually felt I had tried to apply some sort of academic rigor to my research.
Today I have been told I have made an OK start but my tree is worthless as I have "no primary sources" and have never viewed any primary sources. I have 100s of BDM records on my tree and a lot of Scottish Census records too. These have either been viewed via microfiche in the old days and laterlly at Scotland's People's Centre. I have some newspaper artcles but they are eitehr images from FindMyPast or photocopies from the collection at the Mitchell library. The 'original' certificates I am lucky to ahve in my posession are effectively trasnscriptions of the original register entry so are also secondary sources.
Feelins so down about my research and questioning whether I should dump it all? I mean if it's rubbish why am I keeping it? Do I destroy it so it doesn't contaminate someone else's research? I mean the actual registers are not available for the public to handle so not as if I can ever fix it and get proper sources. :(
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No way! Who’s told you it’s worthless? Dump them, not your painstaking research which is certainly not worthless.
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I agree no way dump all your hard work
What does this person consider a primary source if its not the BMD's and census images from the relevant organizations
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And I agree too, NO WAY.
You sound as if you have been more meticulous than very many. Hold your head high and ignore.
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If someone criticised my research in that way, I'd ask them to point out my <i>actual</i> errors so that I might correct them ... that'd keep 'em busy.
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Hi
Dump it all? NO WAY?
Keep it ALL as it is.
Trees are all a work in progress.
It is the result of your effort.
You never know what will turn up to "amend" items of data.
Was this a professional organisation / person? ( Don't have to name names )
Were they trying to be "perfect"?
Ray
Yup I'd be livid too
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I agree no way dump all your hard work
What does this person consider a primary source if its not the BMD's and census images from the relevant organizations
They said I don't have a primary source unless I physically handle the register and has to be the actual record made at the time. This will never be possible, hasn't been in my life time anyway. It does confuse me as I was taught if it was an image of the actual original record then it was a primary source. A secondary source would be a transcription, image of transcrition or a record created later. So the SP images I have used are images of the actual register completed at the time of registration by the registrar and signed (or marked) by the informant. I have a couple of censuses where I only have the enumerators summary but that's because the actual scedule hasn't survived and in my defence I have noted that that is all I have.
Not knowing what else I could get is part of why I'm considering scrapping it. If I don't know what to do after this long I shouldn't be doing it. :'(. Just feel so sad, I have failed at pretty much everything I do.
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Pharma,
I strongly agree with avm & the rest (all had posted while I was still typing)!
I'm assuming you don't put your 'evidence' i.e. certs. online?
Do you state your sources?
Either way, I'm only asking simply to establish why the person has concluded your "tree is worthless"?
I have a very limited tree online in 2 places from a long time ago but I soon learned not to put my paid research i.e. certs. online!!!
If people wanted to contact me then I was open to sharing etc. but I was also stung with the 'sharing' when I sent many certs. to people & received zilch back!
Those certs. appear on various trees & I know they're copies of ones I've sent as I had a certain distinguishing mark on mine when I sent them ;)
Lesson learned i.e. I now would only give references to docs (if asked) as it's cost me an absolute fortune not forgetting the time & effort.
People have the idea, if they join sites/pay subs they should be entitled to access to our paid research (certs) for free! ::)
Keep going & ignore such comments ;)
Annie
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If someone criticised my research in that way, I'd ask them to point out my <i>actual</i> errors so that I might correct them ... that'd keep 'em busy.
I asked how to fix it and they said if I can't handle the original physically then I can't. They suggested ordering a certificate but that will be a transcription created this year, and be created using the image so by that definition would be a tertiary source not to mention prohibitively expensive.
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In that case should I be throwing out my over 40 years research? No Way!
I have copies of my parent's death certificates, for example - issued to me at the time of registration. Would someone challenge that they are not legitimate records? I doubt many of us have had the original record in our hands, it's just not possible.
FS
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It sounds a very mean spirited thing to say, I wonder at their motivation. Jealousy?
I would ignore whoever it is.
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I don’t understand this. We do our research for ourselves. Unless it is going to be an academic piece of research it is just for our own needs and satisfaction.
If this person is someone who has accessed your tree because they are related, then they can accept or reject your findings. It doesn’t affect you.
Take no notice and block them.
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Sounds as if that person whoever it is, is not working in family history but in some other historical field.
I agree with everyone else, if I have seen an image of a document from the relevant period then as far as I'm concerned that is a primry source. The only niggle being that the image is a single page, and there's the slight possiblity that the description of the record source on a website (Family Search or whatever) is not accurate.
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I have been remiss at citing sources on my online tree, in the last couple of weeks I have started going through and entering source references and cross referencing what information they support with side notes regarding the value of the each source eg when there is some sort of discrepancy. I have 2 degrees including a post grad research degree (granted not in history) so the fact the questioned how I passed and i feel maybe others have been thinking the same discredint my qualifiactaions, letting down the image of my uni etc.
Was considering writing up my daugter's tree and getting it bound for her 18th and had wavered as worred about embarrassing her. I had settled on doing it but now questioning it again. Been crying tbh.
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Sounds as if that person whoever it is, is not working in family history but in some other historical field.
I agree with everyone else, if I have seen an image of a document from the relevant period then as far as I'm concerned that is a primry source. The only niggle being that the image is a single page, and there's the slight possiblity that the description of the record source on a website (Family Search or whatever) is not accurate.
I only use the indexes on SP prep work at home. All images have been checked at NRH on microfiche or at SP centre where I tend to check the pages either side for continuity. The one time I found an mage which looked out of place I contacted them and they obliged with a rescan.
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I asked how to fix it and they said if I can't handle the original physically then I can't. They suggested ordering a certificate but that will be a transcription created this year, and be created using the image so by that definition would be a tertiary source not to mention prohibitively expensive.
Sounds like maybe they did their research years ago when it was possible to access and handle (some) original records, and either they don't understand how things have changed, or they won't believe that anyone else could be as good as they think they are.
In fact if they suggested you could solve it by ordering a certificate, that just goes to show how ignorant they are.
PharmaT - your posts always show you to be careful and diligent. They give no reason whatsoever to doubt your competence or the validity or value of your research. (And having now seen your later post, having a post grad research degree says a lot about you - they're not just there for the asking.)
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Sorry, pharmaT, but once again you are "whipping yourself" :'(
Why are you doubting your research? You've done it all YOURSELF, and have satisfied yourself that it is all OK.
Please, please forget this other "person". If they can do better, then let THEM prove it to you. You have no need to prove anything to them. :-*
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Pharma I have my tree on Ancestry sourced using Ancestry transcripts of Scottish records so all secondary sources I do have the relevant BMD's from SP so is my tree not sourced of course it is I'm not going to upload the images if other people are related or want to ask then fair enough
I know my tree is hopefully fairly correct using the records that are available or what my ancestors told the officials at the time which I'm sure your tree is as well
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Seems this person is jealous, and is trying to teach you to suck eggs. No one can ever be 100% sure that everything we have found out is accurate. We cannot "prove" it, we just collate evidence from primary sources.
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Pharma I have my tree on Ancestry sourced using Ancestry transcripts of Scottish records so all secondary sources I do have the relevant BMD's from SP so is my tree not sourced of course it is I'm not going to upload the images if other people are related or want to ask then fair enough
I know my tree is hopefully fairly correct using the records that are available or what my ancestors told the officials at the time which I'm sure your tree is as well
I have sourced mine by citing the references for the certificate/census rather than the ancestry transcript, that is why it was so laborious typing out all the references rather than just clicking.
This comes only a couple of weeks after I was told that I obviously hadn't done my research properly after I commented that I was glad DNA had provided a little extra evidence for a section of my tree where available documentary evidence was limited. This was a different person btw but both experienced researchers.
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Keep up your great work. Your only mistake was not citing the identity of your gormless critic.
When it all comes down to it the only real primary source is watching a birth and following that person through his entire life. Hey, I might even use that in my signature.
I am highly sure that you have adhered to genealogical proof standards.
Martin
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I have been remiss at citing sources on my online tree
I must have the worst part of a tree online as I don't feel I need to justify my sources/images etc.
I could point people to where I sourced my info. if I was asked.
All my info. is on comp. where I can see it & I don't need to worry about my info. not being accessible online without a current sub!
I say this although my home comp. is down & needs the majority of my research extracted! ::)
Sounds as though the person would like possession of whatever image you've been 'told' to download?
"In fact if they suggested you could solve it by ordering a certificate, that just goes to show how ignorant they are."
It's also contradictory ???
Annie
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experienced researchers.
As are you with a post grad if the relevant record can't be found through whatever reason lost destroyed or not recorded at all how can you use it as a source Family history isn't neat and tidy people lie, omit facts, have illegitimate children so on
But it doesn't mean the event didn't happen
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(Under your breath)
Use Princess Anne's fave saying . . . . .
R
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I wouldn't take any of these remarks to heart PharmaT. I get the impression that sometimes you do though, and are easily hurt by thoughtless, ignorant and/or downright mean comments. Please don't let these remarks put you off.
My other half is an academic and spends a lot of his weekends writing and reviewing papers. Our children have concluded that they don't want to do what he does when they grow up because "he spends a lot of time swearing at the computer". They don't get to see the lab work, which can also be frustrating and the bureaucracy is extremely frustrating as well.
He thinks there's considerable crossover between academic research and genealogy in terms of the processes.
I recently gave a presentation at a family gathering of some of the maternal lines. I didn't have primary sources (as in ....seen the ACTUAL document in person and not a transcript) and much of it was reliant on secondary sources. One of these branches is recorded in Burkes etc and going back that far it would be difficult to confirm anything. It was so long since I'd used PowerPoint that the process of making each slide was taking forever, but you can imagine my dismay when at about midnight I found that the various sources weren't in agreement. I'd never noticed before.
A couple of hours later, after looking at various records in the index at NRS and a few sites that focus on Scottish genealogy I came to the conclusion that the tree at Stirnet had the best supporting evidence, as it also explained how the conclusions were reached. Then I managed to complete a couple more slides before going to bed at about 3am.
As you can imagine I wasn't looking very perky the following morning. I was telling DH how it had been going just fine (apart from struggling to make slides that didn't appear to have been constructed by a pre-schooler) but then I'd realised that some of the sources didn't agree. He laughed and said "welcome to academia".
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I wouldn't take any of these remarks to heart PharmaT. I get the impression that sometimes you do though, and are easily hurt by thoughtless, ignorant and/or downright mean comments. Please don't let these remarks put you off.
My other half is an academic and spends a lot of his weekends writing and reviewing papers. Our children have concluded that they don't want to do what he does when they grow up because "he spends a lot of time swearing at the computer". They don't get to see the lab work, which can also be frustrating and the bureaucracy is extremely frustrating as well.
Edit: I always, take things to heart I was taught from an early age to take things to heart and try and fix it, as someone would only say something if it was true and important to them. All my Scottish BDM records from 1855 onwards are images of the original register rather than transcripts. Some of my PRs for earlier records are transcripts created by the minister from the original but only when the original no longer exists or it is in addition to the original. Census wise it is either an image of the enumerator's return or the schedule, again not down to personal choice but dependant on what survives.
He thinks there's considerable crossover between academic research and genealogy in terms of the processes.
I recently gave a presentation at a family gathering of some of the maternal lines. I didn't have primary sources (as in ....seen the ACTUAL document in person and not a transcript) and much of it was reliant on secondary sources. One of these branches is recorded in Burkes etc and going back that far it would be difficult to confirm anything. It was so long since I'd used PowerPoint that the process of making each slide was taking forever, but you can imagine my dismay when at about midnight I found that the various sources weren't in agreement. I'd never noticed before.
A couple of hours later, after looking at various records in the index at NRS and a few sites that focus on Scottish genealogy I came to the conclusion that the tree at Stirnet had the best supporting evidence, as it also explained how the conclusions were reached. Then I managed to complete a couple more slides before going to bed at about 3am.
As you can imagine I wasn't looking very perky the following morning. I was telling DH how it had been going just fine (apart from struggling to make slides that didn't appear to have been constructed by a pre-schooler) but then I'd realised that some of the sources didn't agree. He laughed and said "welcome to academia".
I have a few of those but I have recorded all my searches and explained how I came to the conclusions. For example (must be circumspect as some still alive) my daughter's grandfather's birth record. I'm confident it is the right one as I know him personally and know when his birthday is, the parents on his birth record and DOB match that given on his marriage certificate (which in turn matches the date given on my ex's birth certificate). Well his birth gives a date and place of marriage for his parents, out of his sibling 4 of the 9 have the same date and the rest have the same date a year later. I searched for marriage for both years using all possible combinations of the parent's names (unusual surname which helps) and the only marriage is the later date. I have surmised it is the correct marriage based on it being the same month and year as all the children's births cite and the same year as some of the, the parents names match perfectly as does the location but there is no marriage in whole of Scotland for those 2 surnames in the previous year.
Very wordy thanks to me trying to protect living people but hopefully you get what I mean.
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I'm not familiar with Scottish records, but frankly much of everybody's England & Wales family research is based on secondary sources at best, whether they realise it or not.
All census images before 1911 are transcriptions of the original householder's forms, which were not kept.
Many parish register entries were transcribed from the day book or from notes, or at worst from memory.
Almost all BMD certificates obtained from the GRO are transcriptions of the entries held by the local Registrar.
And so on. That's without the mistakes, misunderstandings, and downright lies that infiltrate most of our sources. We can only do our best by being as thorough as we can.
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"Very experienced" is subjective - and even very experienced researchers can get it wrong.
Does it matter what this person thinks?
Ignore them, or tell them to stop interfering.
Why do you have to justify your research to them?
Of course your tree is correct.
It is family history - and YOUR family history.
It is a hobby.
You enjoy it.
Take no notice of them!
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"Very experienced" is subjective - and even very experienced researchers can get it wrong.
Does it matter what this person thinks?
Ignore them, or tell them to stop interfering.
Why do you have to justify your research to them?
Of course your tree is correct.
It is family history - and YOUR family history.
It is a hobby.
You enjoy it.
Take no notice of them!
it matters because it represents what the majority of people think of me and I long to belong somewhere yet no I never will.
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TBH I do my tree all by myself, as I have managed to contradict the info a researcher gave for me, when it was someone with the same name in the same area. Lead me up a huge garden path it did when I found the info was wrong. When i told the researcher, they were adamant they were right. But I found documents that confirmed the man she researched died as a young man, before my one married. Since then I have done all my ancestry myself. If I cannot find enough evidence, I certainly leave them in the pipeline as a candidate.
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Many parish register entries were transcribed from the day book or from notes, or at worst from memory.
Always did wonder how long some of the vicar's notes were kept in his cassock pocket for! :D
But seriously, the whole point of sourcing things is so that someone else can re-create your reseach, and check it. And, as Sloe Gin said, nearly everything is secondary these days. That wasn't the case when I started researching in the 1970's, we got to handle the originals, as hardly anyone was doing genealogy then.
I'd love to watch your critic trying to get past our archivists to see some of the originals these days!
And if it was necessary to see the originals, I wouldn't be able to do any research these days at all.
And what one person thinks isn't important. What they said says far more about who they are than about who you are.
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it matters because it represents what the majority of people think of me and I long to belong somewhere yet no I never will.
No it's what one person thinks not the majority those interested in family history probably couldn't care how you sourced your tree only to glad someone else has done the work for them
and from the replies on here not what other family historians think either
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It sounds a very mean spirited thing to say, I wonder at their motivation. Jealousy?
I would ignore whoever it is.
Hi pharmaT
Jealousy or perhaps the other individual wants you to cite all your sources and hard work, just so that they can copy it (plagiarism).
It is one of the oldest tricks in the book to criticise, to get someone to give away all their sources!
Because so-called historians who are supposed to know how to do this, simply can't because they are either not bright enough, or can't be bothered to even apply for images themselves and they simply want to freeload off someone else like you who has done all the spade work, on a tight budget!
The cheeky so and so!
You'll probably find all your tree on someone elses, saying they paid a researcher £1,000s in manhours / womanhours for it (who did sweet nothing).
I wouldn't stick your sources on, just names, dates, probably places, with the event name like:- Birth, Marriage or Death.
Put you tree up and let them find/apply for the evidence themselves!
Mark
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It sounds a very mean spirited thing to say, I wonder at their motivation. Jealousy?
I would ignore whoever it is.
Hi pharmaT
Jealousy or perhaps the other individual wants you to cite all your sources and hard work, just so that they can copy it (plagiarism).
It is one of the oldest tricks in the book to criticise, to get someone to give away sources!
Because so-called historians who are supposed to know how to do this, simply can't because they are either not bright enough, or can't be bothered to even apply themselves and simply want to freeload off someone else like you who has done all the space work!
You'll probably find all your tree on someone elses, saying they paid a researcher £1,000s in manhours / womanhours for it (who did sweet nothing).
I wouldn't stick your sources on, just names, dates, probably places, with the event name like:- Birth, Marriage & Death.
Put you tree up and let them apply for the evidence themselves!
Mark
The person who said it isn't a relative. They said it because I made a comment about how many different things one Scottish BDM could provide some evidence for and they replied that they weren't proper evidence I tried to put forward my case why they counted as evidence and the best available in most cases. Was told I didn't understand, how did I get my degree etc. I've only just manged t stop crying. Pathetic I know but has really upset me.
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I just cannot believe what I am reading on this page..
Sorry Pharma
If I was your Mom.. I may well shake you xxxx in the nicest possible way of course.
Who the heck (however much you feel you need to belong to them) Who the Heck - has the right to make you swing this way!!!!
YOU ARE YOU
YOUR RESULTS ARE YOURS
possibly with errors.. possibly lacking sources..
but - researched from the heart - for your daughter to see -
DO you feel your daughter loves you ? or do you feel she thinks little of you......
Believe me I can feel that you KNOW she loves you - and that she would be proud of her Mothers work.
Do I not live in the real world anymore.. Do we have to question and be SHOWN everything.. by some other BEING/BULLY
No Pharma GET a Chair out and stand on it and SHOUT look at me.. I did this .. its not perfect but I did it to the best of my ability at the time, I am still learning and researching and checking..
then get off the chair and chill
WHO so ever you felt was above you enough to ask an opinion of.. would possibly or may possibly be.....a.n..other re-searcher with better letters after their name than you.. fiddle faddle.... look around you..
NOBODY knows it all and NOBODY is perfect and so many toooo many TREES on LINE are written up by people who profess to be some kind of genealogical great brain and there are ERRORS BLINDING errors in those trees.
ooooo I feel better for that and if you hate me tuff.. you are PHARMA T or whoever you really are and BE PROUD NOW xxxxxx
xin
and dont bin the research....fgs.....
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pharmaT
Unless it is your Lecturer / person involved in marking your Thesis, asking for clarification, Take no notice!
A Certified Official Copy of a Certificate or Scan or Image of a document, is primary evidence in my book!
Mark
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Until today I would have said any errors were not due to lack of trying and any lack of evidence was down to no evidence surviving or I just hadn't found it yet rather than I hadn't bothered to look but now I have doubts.
I think my daughter does love me, I heard her telling her friend se wanted something but wasn't going to ask me as she knew money was tight. I know I embarrass her and she has been bullied at school because of a mother's low opinion of me, eg derogatory, classist remarks and writing my daughter off because of who her mum is.
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silly billy of course she loves you xxxx
she knows you are working as hard as you can.. keep smiling and be happy and be there for her...
always ...even when its not reciprocated
kids is kids and we are walk overable if we loves em
(well up to a bloomin point ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D)
xin
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You know what.
There are some people out there who are not good with human interactions and lack all understanding of nuance and courtesy. Not able to empathise or feel with another’s point of view or respect feelings at all.
Unfortunately you have encountered one of these people and you would do well to make a promise to yourself to steer clear in the future.
Sue
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it matters because it represents what the majority of people think of me and I long to belong somewhere yet no I never will.
No it's what one person thinks not the majority those interested in family history probably couldn't care how you sourced your tree only to glad someone else has done the work for them
and from the replies on here not what other family historians think either
Precisely!
This person whose opinion matters so much to you ...... Has s/he touched or sighted
every single primary record for evey single event on his/her tree? Um. I very much doubt that. Unless maybe their tree consists of only themselves, their children and maybe parents or grandparents. :)
I am wondering if you may have misinterpreted their comment? :-\
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it matters because it represents what the majority of people think of me and I long to belong somewhere yet no I never will.
No it's what one person thinks not the majority those interested in family history probably couldn't care how you sourced your tree only to glad someone else has done the work for them
and from the replies on here not what other family historians think either
Precisely!
This person whose opinion matters so much to you ...... Has s/he touched or sighted
every single primary record for evey single event on his/her tree? Um. I very much doubt that. Unless maybe their tree consists of only themselves, their children and maybe parents or grandparents. :)
I am wondering if you may have misinterpreted their comment? :-\
I haven't because when they said it I questioned what they meant, they repeated it slightly differently then I gave my explanation for why I thought my sources were ok and the best I would get I then got the lecture on me not understanding and how did I get my degree etc. So unfortunately not a misunderstanding, I clarified what they meant.
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I heard her telling her friend se wanted something but wasn't going to ask me as she knew money was tight.
As a mum and daughter this sentence tells me she loves you and of course she does you are her mum and would do anything for her
She doesn't want to ask because she knows you would try to buy the thing she would like even if it meant doing without yourself and she doesn't want to put you in that position
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As we all know, it gets harder the further back in time we go, we get more and more gaps in PR's, older styles of handwriting which can be impossible to decipher, and less records in general as birth, marriage and death certs only started to come into place in 1837, and the first useful census is 1841, but the first really useful census is 1851. And I have 3 ancestors not born in county in 1841 but the Grim Reaper could not wait until 30th March 1851.
Maybe you are worrying too much about what some ignorant person has said, although it is hard to ignore criticism, as you often think "what if they are right"? But they are not right, they are just jealous or ignorant. Jealous people say nasty things about people that are opposite to what those people actually are. Too many people in this world are quick to judge, and love making others feel small to make themselves feel better.
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This person can't possibly be serious. Handling a document does not make it a primary source. If it did, could they PROVE that they had handled it? Have they a witness statement signed by a Notary Public or equivalent to back up their claim? Does the Magna Carta become a secondary source if you can only look at it through glass?
Maybe they only obey laws in the presence of the master copy held in the Houses of Parliament and the monarch who signed it into law. After all, anything else would be a secondary source, and therefore worthless. ;D ;D
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PharmaT I don't know you or your situation but would like to make a couple of comments.
Firstly I think your daughter would love her tree for her birthday. No-one else can give her that and she knows it will be done with much love and care. I base this on my own experience with my son and his grandparents, one set gave him money for birthdays and Christmas the other time and well thought out gifts. He loved them.
Living in Australia there is no way I can get to physically see primary certificates for my English and Welsh ancestors. I am not throwing that away because of that.
I contacted a researcher who had my great aunts details wrong and corrected them. Fortunately I didn't give certificates as I later found out he was a paid researcher.
A cousin paid a lot of money for a researcher to break a brick wall for him. Within a couple of years we had disproved what he wrote and confirmed it later with DNA. The problem we had was that my great great grandmother never put his middle name in her records.
Just remember nothing is perfect we just do the best we can within the limits we have.
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PharmaT
I have been trying for years to prove / disprove an 18th Century link.
A Rootschatter had kindly suggested another possibility also.
Both still have validity, for their own reasons.
But despite seeing or getting documents from Archives (still more to see), I can't prove one or the other, due to insufficient detail, or missing records.
I am certainly not chucking the tree or anything else away!
My mystery ancestor was rubbing shoulders with named individuals.
Suddenly last week, a family collection of papers spanning several centuries has shown up covering these three family names, deposited quite recently.
I'm excited now, that there might be just one item in those papers, that mentions my mystery ancestor and gives me a clue as to who he might be.
Have self belief and keep gnawing away at it with patience but determination and I wish you success.
Mark
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You seem to come across a lot of mean and judgemental people in your day to day life PharmaT. Try not to engage with them and more importantly, try not to let them get you down. You always have rootschatters to give you a pep talk and to reassure you. :)
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Today I have been told I have made an OK start but my tree is worthless as I have "no primary sources" and have never viewed any primary sources.
Sounds like he's a salesman desperate to earn some commission. I do so hate those puffed-up. think-they-know-it-all, supercilious cretins, who seem to want to lord it over everyone
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Today I have been told I have made an OK start but my tree is worthless as I have "no primary sources" and have never viewed any primary sources.
Did s/he really use the word "worthless"?
What was meant by "an OK start"?
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I'm working with you now on a thread in Co. Down, and your research and your approach to it is excellent.
Sources are what they are, many times they contradict each other. A good researcher can determine how they harmonize and what they actually tell us about the ancestor/event, etc.
As someone has already said, unless you intend to publish in a journal somewhere, the purpose of citations is so other people can find your source. Just cite what you have, if necessary note that it is a secondary source. Maybe the next person can take it a step farther.
My sources are sloppy, but no one has complained about the research, and rarely if ever has anyone found fault with it. I suspect strongly that it is the same in your case.
As for degrees and credentials, just remember the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz. Enough said. I learned a lot more in high school than in college, I've needed my degree to earn 3 1/2 days of income in 50 years, and the only college course I wish I kept my notes from was one on historical research.
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More cynically, I suspect the other person is a professional genealogist or aspires to be, and they can't bear to see an amateur do work as good as theirs. Amateur meaning only that you didn't pay $$ (or Pounds, I don't have that sign on my keyboard here in US) for a few years courses in genealogy, but you still have enough brains to know where the records are and how to make sense out of them.
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I have been remiss at citing sources on my online tree, in the last couple of weeks I have started going through and entering source references and cross referencing what information they support with side notes regarding the value of the each source eg when there is some sort of discrepancy. I have 2 degrees including a post grad research degree (granted not in history) so the fact the questioned how I passed and i feel maybe others have been thinking the same discredint my qualifiactaions, letting down the image of my uni etc.
Was considering writing up my daugter's tree and getting it bound for her 18th and had wavered as worred about embarrassing her. I had settled on doing it but now questioning it again. Been crying tbh.
Try not to dwell on the matter Pharma. We rootschatters outnumber that person and we're all here on our white chargers ready to right a wrong.
Whoever spoke to you would have a field day with me, as some of my information can't be gleaned from missing bmd's but from contents of last wills/testaments. I don't put my sources on my online trees, why should I give ancestry, myheritage, etc. further free information?
Pharma said:
The person who said it isn't a relative. They said it because I made a comment about how many different things one Scottish BDM could provide some evidence for and they replied that they weren't proper evidence I tried to put forward my case why they counted as evidence and the best available in most cases. Was told I didn't understand, how did I get my degree etc. I've only just manged t stop crying. Pathetic I know but has really upset me.
One branch of my family were from the European mainland but I never received one single image of an original document - all information was sent via typed lists by a church archivist, who painstakingly listed all the witnesses shown on the various bmd's because some, or all, could be relatives and that information is valuable to researchers. I assume this is what you meant during your conversation to this unknown person.
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Keep up your great work. Your only mistake was not citing the identity of your gormless critic.
When it all comes down to it the only real primary source is watching a birth and following that person through his entire life. Hey, I might even use that in my signature.
Martin
;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D
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And nothing on ancestry.com matters except the records. The trees are mostly mythology, so I would care very little about what anyone who had a tree on there said about my work. You might be better off not putting it on there, for that matter.
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....
Today I have been told I have made an OK start but my tree is worthless as I have "no primary sources" and have never viewed any primary sources. I have 100s of BDM records on my tree and a lot of Scottish Census records too. These have either been viewed via microfiche in the old days and laterlly at Scotland's People's Centre. I have some newspaper artcles but they are eitehr images from FindMyPast or photocopies from the collection at the Mitchell library. The 'original' certificates I am lucky to ahve in my posession are effectively trasnscriptions of the original register entry so are also secondary sources.
Feelins so down about my research and questioning whether I should dump it all? I mean if it's rubbish why am I keeping it? Do I destroy it so it doesn't contaminate someone else's research? I mean the actual registers are not available for the public to handle so not as if I can ever fix it and get proper sources. :(
Dear PharmaT,
I am absolutely certain that there is absolutely nothing wrong about how you have gone about researching your family history. That other person's research is not your responsibility. Your research does not contaminate theirs and their research does not contaminate yours. Primary Sources are reliable, but so too are Secondary Sources and don't let anyone tell you that one is more important than the other. A secondary source can often provide the context for a primary source, and without context a primary source can be mis-understood and thus mis-interpreted.
Please go ahead and share your research with your daughter.
JM
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You're lucky your daughter is interested - mine isn't! Except when my mother gave her the family cook-book, started by my great granny. That fascinated her! Now she wants me to add to it, so that she has 4 generations of recipes in there.
My niece, on the other hand, is interested ....
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I have been researching for over 18 years now. A large proportion of my research is in Scotland so I have been to New Register House several time and more recently SP centre at the Mitchell Library because it is less travelling for me.
Over the years I have put a lot of effort into gettin my tree as accurate as possible. Obviously being human I have made mistakes but I correct them when I can. I have always been quite obsessive about having as many sources as possible for each 'fact'. When I only have one piece of evidence for something I have made a point of annotating my tree that there is limited evidence. Although my tree is still something I consider a work in progress I was starting to become quite proud of all I had done and learned and actually felt I had tried to apply some sort of academic rigor to my research.
Today I have been told I have made an OK start but my tree is worthless as I have "no primary sources" and have never viewed any primary sources. I have 100s of BDM records on my tree and a lot of Scottish Census records too. These have either been viewed via microfiche in the old days and laterlly at Scotland's People's Centre. I have some newspaper artcles but they are eitehr images from FindMyPast or photocopies from the collection at the Mitchell library. The 'original' certificates I am lucky to ahve in my posession are effectively trasnscriptions of the original register entry so are also secondary sources.
Feelins so down about my research and questioning whether I should dump it all? I mean if it's rubbish why am I keeping it? Do I destroy it so it doesn't contaminate someone else's research? I mean the actual registers are not available for the public to handle so not as if I can ever fix it and get proper sources. :(
No don’t dump your research you have done the best you can.
Whilst it is probably correct that your research is not based on ‘original records’ if you take the view that the original record is the first written record of the event, you have used what are the first official records (or photographs & scans of the first official records, which is what Parish Registers on microfiche/film and online digital images are). Though to be pedantic Parish Registers were made from day books and notes often on scraps of paper, and are therefore transcripts and census, other than the 1911 are transcripts of mainly secondary information, but that is why we researchers try to amass as much information for a particular event as possible from a range of independent sources.
From what you write you are aware of the limitations of the sources that are available and have taken steps to ensure your information is accurate.
If you think about it to compile an accurate family tree from original sources it would have to be compiled by each and every ancestor who appeared on your tree recording their part in the process, each conception would have to be recorded at the time by the two people involved and each woman would have to be monitored for a reasonable time before and after each conception to be sure of the facts.
As the life events of our families and ancestors were not recorded in such a way we have to rely on official records and understand that these records will contain errors and omissions and we try to nullify these errors and omissions by the use of other records.
No tree can definitely be 100% accurate as the official records we base our trees on are complied from information supplied from 3rd parties after the event.
One only has to ask a policeman about witness reports of an accident or event to see that each witness supplies a different information to describe the same event.
Cheers
Guy
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I do so hate those puffed-up. think-they-know-it-all, supercilious cretins, who seem to want to lord it over everyone
That's brilliant Rena!
Pharma, next time someone questions how you got your degree, turn round and say, " I wonder how you became such a puffed up, supercilious cretin? " That should shut them up. ;D Start believing in yourself and ignore what others say, life is far too short to worry about what others think.
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PharmaT
Having read this entire thread I agree with all that has been said. It's unimaginable that someone can be so insensitive to make those comments to you. You sound as if you are more qualified that most of us so PLEASE don't beat yourself up over this..
Your daughter would be delighted I'm sure to receive her family tree as it's been done with living care by her mother. Something she can look back on as she goes through life giving her a truely wonderful link to her past.
I've spoken to you in the chat room and you are a lovely, caring,empathetic and sensitive person so don't get upset by
Quote
" Puffed-up,think-they-know-it-all, supercilious cretins, who seem to want to lord it over everyone"
A marvellous description by Rena and just think that every time someone starts to bully you.
Definitely don't scrap your tree either.
Caroline
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I agree with all the posts on here and would just like to say that the most important thing you can do for your daughter is to give her a strong sense of self. She would be horrified if you binned your research.
How you react to criticism will be noted by her so you need to stand tall, look the cretins in the eye and inform them that you have listened to them but strongly disagree and will not be taking their criticisms on board. Then walk away smiling.
Do not engage with them or give them the reaction they are waiting for as it only feeds their ego and you won't win. There are many people who feed their own sense of self by trying to take others down. It never makes them any happier.
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When it all comes down to it the only real primary source is watching a birth and following that person through his entire life. Hey, I might even use that in my signature.
Wouldn't you need to be present for the conception as well?
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I had the same problem. My genealogy was on the old PAF system and realizing I was not immortal made the decision to load it onto Family Search Org. Took quite a long time but made it. Received help from our local LDS branch genealogy library. Names from all over the world from Australia to Zambia (actually Northern Rhodesia).
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Well PharmaT, when I started out I bought a book called Ancestral Trails by Mark Herber, subtitled 'The Complete Guide to British Genealogy & Family History', published in association with the Society of Genealogists and winner of the Library Association McColvin Medal for Outstanding Reference Work.
The book is several inches thick & runs to over 700 pages, and nowhere in this acknowledged 'bible' of family history research does it say 'but having spent all of this time & effort describing all of these records to you, please be aware that none of them are 'proper evidence' so you may as well not bother'.
So who do you want to listen to - a prize-winning authority on the subject who confirms that your methods are correct, or some troll with no credentials whatsoever?
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PharmaT do NOT repeat NOT bin your work.
YOU have done it to the best of your ability, checked out all the available sources, and created your tree.
It is yours, and your daughters, no one elses.
If the quote " Puffed-up,think-they-know-it-all, supercilious cretins, who seem to want to lord it over everyone" unquote thinks they are better than you, get them to show you their work, with ALL their primary sources. Do they have the actual "primary" sources, or do they have a "copy" of the "primary" source.
If someone said to me the sort of thing they have said to you, I would have told them where to go, and how to get there. Partly that is because I am male, and have over the years been subjected to bullying, but I used that to deal with them.
Ignore them, and let Rootschatters be your sounding board, not the above mentioned #$%##
AC
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I can't see that you have given any indication of who has told you this utter nonsense, Pharma, but clearly it's someone who hasn't a clue what they are talking about. Sounds very much like a bit of advanced mansplaining* going on here!
*Definition: Mansplaining is a pejorative term meaning to comment on or explain something to a woman in a condescending, overconfident, and often inaccurate or oversimplified manner. Author Rebecca Solnit ascribes the phenomenon to a combination of "overconfidence and cluelessness". Lily Rothman of The Atlantic defines it as "explaining without regard to the fact that the explainee knows more than the explainer, often done by a man to a woman". Source: Wikipedia
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PharmaT do NOT repeat NOT bin your work.
YOU have done it to the best of your ability, checked out all the available sources, and created your tree.
It is yours, and your daughters, no one elses.
If the quote " Puffed-up,think-they-know-it-all, supercilious cretins, who seem to want to lord it over everyone" unquote thinks they are better than you, get them to show you their work, with ALL their primary sources. Do they have the actual "primary" sources, or do they have a "copy" of the "primary" source.
If someone said to me the sort of thing they have said to you, I would have told them where to go, and how to get there. Partly that is because I am male, and have over the years been subjected to bullying, but I used that to deal with them.
Ignore them, and let Rootschatters be your sounding board, not the above mentioned #$%##
AC
It was a RCer that said it.
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It was a RCer that said it.
So you are going to believe one person who you’ve never met, are never likely to meet, who doesn’t know you, has never seen your tree or your work etc?
Just reading through all the replies on here, ask yourself who is wrong, that one RCer or everyone else who manages their tree in the same way that you do? If they posted that on a public board I’m sure they will have been challenged by others. If it was by PM, just block them.
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Today I have been told I have made an OK start but my tree is worthless as I have "no primary sources" and have never viewed any primary sources.
Did s/he really use the word "worthless"?
What was meant by "an OK start"?
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Today I have been told I have made an OK start but my tree is worthless as I have "no primary sources" and have never viewed any primary sources.
Did s/he really use the word "worthless"?
What was meant by "an OK start"?
An Ok start as in I had clues to know where I could look for proper sources.
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But did they really say your tree was "worthless"?
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"Very experienced" is subjective - and even very experienced researchers can get it wrong.
Does it matter what this person thinks?
Ignore them, or tell them to stop interfering.
Why do you have to justify your research to them?
Of course your tree is correct.
It is family history - and YOUR family history.
It is a hobby.
You enjoy it.
Take no notice of them!
PERFECT this is the total ANSWER brilliant Ruskie (wish I could have found these words)
xin
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Oh dear --
So it was a fellow Roots Chatter -- :-X :-\
One of our Caring Clan - One of US -
So where are they NOW hiding ?!
and how brave of you to write it all on here knowing that they too can read it.
he/she (note no capitals - only for the deserv-ed)
Needs to throw their side of the arguement in.. and explain --
WHY
one RCer --seemingly - asked for advice or maybe looked to for friendship and something with which to be 'buddies' with Virtually being safer than reality --
Did they SAY what they have to you.
Or has it all been blown out of proportion
both sides need seeing on here.
It is so easy to misconstrue a comment - and especially difficult to build a strong relationship - virtually.
This person could well be ' Supercillious' as has been suggested... OR.... just opened their mouth at the wrong time - with the wrong words.
Stand up and be counted... time
xin
But maybe best left... it could well have been a total error... misunderstanding and however much it hurts Pharma.. it could hurt even more if it is carried on...
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Oh dear --
So it was a fellow Roots Chatter -- :-X :-\
One of our Caring Clan - One of US -
So where are they NOW hiding ?!
and how brave of you to write it all on here knowing that they too can read it.
he/she (note no capitals - only for the deserv-ed)
Needs to throw their side of the arguement in.. and explain --
WHY
one RCer --seemingly - asked for advice or maybe looked to for friendship and something with which to be 'buddies' with Virtually being safer than reality --
Did they SAY what they have to you.
Or has it all been blown out of proportion
both sides need seeing on here.
It is so easy to misconstrue a comment - and especially difficult to build a strong relationship - virtually.
This person could well be ' Supercillious' as has been suggested... OR.... just opened their mouth at the wrong time - with the wrong words.
Stand up and be counted... time
xin
Well unlike my normal I asked at the time what should do about my research and didn't get an answer other than a repeat of how bad it is.
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Where was this, Pharma - I guess it wasn't on an open board otherwise there would have been plenty of people who would have told that person they were wrong? As I said before, the answer is easy - if it was a PM, block them. If it was in the chatroom either don't go there or ignore them.
I really don't think that inviting that person to answer for themselves on an open board is a good idea, and certainly isn't in the spirit of RC. They gave their opinion as they see it, whether you chose to accept that opinion from one person is up to you but certainly isn't worth getting upset about. If you feel they are harassing you, report them to a Moderator.
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Parma, I haven't read all of this but who are the
"they" who have told you to ditch it, please don't, I have been doing my research since 1994 started by accident I might add, it will be for my family
So once again , PLEASE DON'T bin it
Louisa Maud
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Where was this, Pharma - I guess it wasn't on an open board otherwise there would have been plenty of people who would have told that person they were wrong? As I said before, the answer is easy - if it was a PM, block them. If it was in the chatroom either don't go there or ignore them.
I really don't think that inviting that person to answer for themselves on an open board is a good idea, and certainly isn't in the spirit of RC. They gave their opinion as they see it, whether you chose to accept that opinion from one person is up to you but certainly isn't worth getting upset about. If you feel they are harassing you, report them to a Moderator.
I wasn't challenging them as an individual. It wasn't my intention. I geniuinely wanted advice on what to do. I was sitting crying, doubting myself and considering if I should give up my only hobby. I needed someone to give me rational advice as I was too upset to make a decision. Spoiling RC was not my intention. I was torn, felt I had to leave and quit my hobby and other than work it's the only human contact I have.
Thank you for pointing out my failings as a RCer,I'll remove myself. hopefully those I've upset can forgive me anad understand I didn't mean to.
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Now you are not thinking straight.
You Need to just close the door on all this and step away ... from it for 24hrs or so..
'Chill' as they say and when you feel refreshed.. you can start again
We do not want RID we want you to appreciate YOURSELF more..
GET the mirror out and some lipstick and write on it your achievements in life..
AND do not give me... I havent got anything to write..
24 hrs re-evaluating this situation and getting wrapped up in Christmas .. is a good idea.
XXin
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If you read the previous answers, it was Xin who mentioned asking the person to explain themselves, so my answer was a general observation. Perhaps that is a perfect example of how things can be taken out of context.
Why should you think you've upset anyone - no one has mentioned being upset?
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I am just adding my thoughts to this.. pharmaT it doesn't appear to me that anyone thinks you have failed as a RootsChatter.
It seems to me by the number of response posts and the comments that others care that you are feeling upset and are trying to encourage you not to give up your hobby. I hope you will 're-think about removing yourself - I am sure none of us would want that.
I wonder if you might be feeling a bit depressed and might be seeing things out of context? To echo Sloe Gin - did the person actually use those specific words that your tree was 'worthless?'
If they did, ignore this. If doing genealogy gives you enjoyment don't let anyone put you off. It is your tree and you have every right to do things your way and not someone else's way. Just think one day there may be a keen genealogist in one of your future direct/indirect descendants who would love to get their hands on your research.
It's a long story, but I have been given possession of various genealogical notes written by one of my Grandmother's half sisters. I can't tell you how much I actually appreciate this - even though she made some 'mistakes' which I have been able to discover through certs and archive trips. This person wrote fantastic notes which have been fascinating to me - even the errors. My Grandmother's half sister had been encouraged to write these notes by her own sister-in-law but apparently at the time she did not have any clue how much this work would be appreciated by me and others in the family line of the future.
This has turned out a bit long winded but to sum things up ..
Please don't leave .. we want you to stay.
Please don't give up if this is something which has previously given you enjoyment and which still could.
Lastly, and I mean this kindly, please consider if you might be depressed and might therefore be vulnerable to taking things out of context.
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Pharma T
I'm really concerned that you feel you have to leave RC, there are so many people on here who are caring, sharing. It's a great place to come when you need a bit of a boost what ever circumstances are going on in your life.
The topics are many and various and there is always someone with a comment that will make you laugh or smile and to be able to join in and get positive feedback is a wonderful thing.
As I said before I've chatted to you in the chat room and always found you to be a genuine caring person
SO PLEASE DONT THINK OF LEAVING RC its a life line for many and comforting to know there is always someone there who understands.
Your tree is your tree and NOONE has the right to tell you it's worthless, just ignore them and try to put it behind you and think about all the positive comments that have been made in this thread.
We're all behind you and rooting for you to stay.
Caroline
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Pharma, your posts have made us sad for you and we so want to boost your confidence and spirit...and get you back to doing something that gives you such pleasure and enjoyment.
I remember a long time ago here on RC someone said some things to me both in the open forum and then continued via PMs that really upset me. I spoke to others here on RC and they helped me put those comments into a box that I then locked up and threw the key away!
Don't ever forget that your research is your own, to share with your family. What a lovely thing to think of doing for your daughter :) I am just waiting for someone to send me their privately printed book on their research that they have done for their family. I know they have done it with much love. What does it matter if they forgot to cite some sources!
Family research is not academia. It is for me a rewarding and interesting pastime that gives me such pleasure. I don't mind if it for my family or that of others. That is also the way you come across in the posts you have joined in the past here on RC. If we make mistakes or don't quote sources or haven't touched original docs...don't think our ancestors would care! They would just be happy that you are thinking of them and trying to make sense of their lives.
Monica :)
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Oh, PharmaT ... yet again you've let people upset you to the point of tears .... who on earth are they to do so? Wipe those eyes, set back those shoulders, stand tall, and think straight:
You have successfully brought up your daughter - who sounds a fine girl. - What have "they" done?
You have spent years chasing facts and information IN ALL AVAILABLE FORMATS, and piecing them together, exactly as we all do, to build up as good a picture of our family ancestry as we can - should we all give up, too, because we haven't actually got the hand-written on vellum original dated 1323?
You have checked, double-checked and treble checked, I'm sure, all the information you've collated
before adding it - what "proof" have "they" of their accuracy?
You have helped others on these forums, and contributed to the successful research done by others - "they" probably have been as negative, tearing down everyone else they have corresponded with ... have a look at their earlier posts, you may see a theme...
You do have a tendency to take everything as your fault, or your mistakes ... Why? Believe in yourself, - as you can read here, others do ... and who else counts than your family and friends -including on here?
Keep on with your research, don't chop that tree down into firewood, watch it bloom and blossom, as it grows ever stronger!
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PharmaT
Can I just talk to you about something?
As human beings we all try to make sense of the world.
When things happen to us, we think about whether they happened before, and what we did then, and sometimes do the same as we did then (or sometimes the opposite, in an effort to make things turn out differently)
But overall we are just trying to make a confusing world make sense.
In order to do that, we have conversations about things (with ourselves and with other people).
However, sometimes the conversations we have turn into self-fulfilling prophesies.
So if we think we're not very clever and a bit worthless generally (and many of us do), every time we do something slightly wrong or which turns out not how we wanted, we add this to the box we have which says "you're not very clever and a bit worthless" and this thing proves it.
In the end, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. People say something, and we may not hear it properly because the "not very clever and a bit worthless" box is just waiting to be filled, and proved right.
You've just done this here - you heard, somehow, though NOBODY SAID IT "you should leave RC".
Because you are listening to confirm that you're right in your "not very clever and a bit worthless", you heard it that way.
BUT NOBODY SAID IT.
What's the answer? If you don't like the conversation you're having, have another one. You make them up, of course, so there's not a problem in that.
So you have a look at your extremely full "not very clever and a bit worthless" box - I know it's full, because we can all see it here. You've been working on it for years. Doesn't make it true, though.
Why not change it to (just to start with) "sometimes not very clever" and then you will be like the rest of us.
Then you can move on to "that thing that happened proves that actually SOMETIMES I'M QUITE CLEVER"
And possibly, in the future to "I have the habit hearing everything confirm I'm not very clever AND I'M GOING TO STOP DOING THAT". I'm going to allow myself to be clever and worth a lot sometimes,
People say lots of things. They're just what falls from their lips. They are no cleverer than you,
If you don't like the conversation you are having - have another one.
With all best wishes to you (and to the other lovely people on RC)
Igor
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Brilliant words Igor
xxxin
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You've just done this here - you heard, somehow, though NOBODY SAID IT "you should leave RC".
Because you are listening to confirm that you're right in your "not very clever and a bit worthless", you heard it that way.
BUT NOBODY SAID IT.
I wasn't going to join this thread, but I have to congratulate Ivor Strav on these words of wisdom :)
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Brilliantly and eloquently put Igor - Pharma I hope that you are now able to see that we are ALL behind you and want you to continue with your research.
Everyone has self doubt at times and it's people on here, who understand what we're going through with research, that restore our faith in ourselves.
Keep up your great work and know you have many friends here behind you.
Caroline
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… then got the lecture on me not understanding and how did I get my degree etc.
I assume because you're intelligent, focussed, hard-working and well-organised. You apply the same attributes to family history.
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Pharma, please come back and tell us you are feeling better now you have got it off your chest as it were
Best regards
Louisa Maud
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You have helped others on these forums, and contributed to the successful research done by others -
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Pharma, please come back and tell us you are feeling better now you have got it off your chest as it were
Best regards
Louisa Maud
Pharma, I have been following this thread but not joined in because so much good advice has already been given. However, I second what Louisa Maud has said and hope you have read all the replies, take heart and come back.
Jebber
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I have not been doing much genealogy lately, while it is never a chore, it can be overwhelming, and it is nice to take some time away from it for a while, and come back refreshed. Maybe if you are worried about this persons narrow minded opinion, a bit of a break from genealogy could help as well.
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I was just sitting here thinking.
If all the inventors in the world had stopped
just because their first ideas or their research had failed at the first hurdle.
none of us would be sitting in front of a computer would we!
We would still be sitting in mud huts with ox fat oil burners for lights.
Pharma T none of your research failed, Some jumped up researcher who sounds like s/he was raised alongside Jacob Reece Mog. Fails to grip modern life, discount their rambling for what they are WORTHLESS.
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Well I've logged back in, more to do with the weakness of feeling lonely rather than anything else. Thank you for all you kind comments. I haven't binned my research but have lost faith in it, have no pride in my work anymore. Not that I was that confident in myself in the first place.
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Well I've logged back in
WELCOME ( back ) to Rootschat PharmaT !
Should you need any help starting out, just shout?
Ray :-*
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Oh, thank goodness you have responded. :D I, for one, was getting a little worried for you.
PLEASE, please, just do what you WANT to do - NEVER take as "gospel" what others tell you to do.
Very, VERY relieved to see you back. :D :D :-*
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I am coming to see you xxx we need to go out on the town.. Now I have heard there is a good Pub opened up today and if you search these pages you will find it
:) :) ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D
xin
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Aw, great Xinia, make it a group booking ;)
Louisa Maud
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Welcome back pharmaT - it is good to see you haven't abandoned us all.
Hopefully you will regain your confidence in your work soon and will be able to enjoy it again.
Don't take it to heart if someone tries to come across as superior in how they do things.
I once told a lady that I had got into war research because of ancestors who had been killed in the Great War. She asked if I had actually been out to any of the battle fields. When I replied no she said "Ah well, that's the difference between you and me .. I have actually been out to the battle fields.' This was said with an air of superiority but I just laughed to myself about it. I may never have the time or money to visit Ypres or other places but that doesn't make me any less.
pharmaT please don't let anyone spoil your enjoyment .. Hope you feel much better about this whole situation soon. SO glad you are back .. isn't this tremendous how much support you have received! You are obviously cared about by many so take heart in this. Good on you for not giving up and throwing away all your hard work!
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Welcome back Pharma, sleep on it all and you will feel better tomorrow
Don't give it up, will look foward to seeing your name on RC soon
Best regards
Louisa Maud
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Pharma T
So glad to see you back, WELCOME back to RC... you know where your friends are!
I'd join you at the pub but you're a long way off for me unless you travel to your MiL which is a lot nearer!
Don't give up, carry on, perhaps have a break over Christmas and come back refreshed in the NY.
Caroline
X
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I am coming to see you xxx we need to go out on the town.. Now I have heard there is a good Pub opened up today and if you search these pages you will find it
:) :) ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D
xin
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I am coming to see you xxx we need to go out on the town.. Now I have heard there is a good Pub opened up today and if you search these pages you will find it
:) :) ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D
xin
Rootschat Arms
Mince pies, beer, wine, spirits - and no hangover or enlarged waistlines! Might drop by myself! :D
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=804867.msg6632712 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=804867.msg6632712)
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pharmaT,
I have to say, some of the comments on here are amazing & I had a few tears reading them!!!
Too many to mention but please, please take the advice from Igor!!!
I won't go into things here but at the end of last yr I had a similar thing going on (in a different context & circumstance) but the whole thing 'got to me' to the point I lost all interest in my most important hobby (genealogy), nothing to do with the root problem, (no pun intended)!
I received a message from RC via fb.
A few 'RC friends' had been concerned about my absence (some of who have posted on this thread) & believe me, that was my turning point, knowing people were genuinely concerned although they didn't know my reason as I just disappeared from the 'outside world' & the place I spent most of my spare time (RC).
I was very low, had given up virtually everything & mentally I was feeling just that 'worthless'!!!
Those few kind words made such a huge difference as my own problem had now basically became theirs, the fact people noticed I wasn't around.
I realised there are genuine people out there & didn't want them worrying & having by that time, forgot my password...yes, a password I'd used for donkeys yrs but my mind was blank!
I got it all sorted with Sarah, logged back in & so glad I did as RC is where I'm most happy.
Please take heed of peoples words, they're meaningful & put the obnoxious person you were dealing with out of your head as (s)/he doesn't affect your daily life the way mine was & still is!
Can I just ask, is the person who commented on your tree, connected/related to your tree?
If so, have they picked out faults/errors or what, apart from not having ‘handled’ primary records?
Keep up your great work & feel very, very proud your dau has her roots at heart at such a young age (as I was too) & feel proud she has the knowledge ‘£ doesn’t grow on trees’ i.e. accepting things are tight, how very caring it is of her to have that attitude when so much is geared round ‘named’ clothes, perfumes etc.
Your dau shows her love & more importantly, understands, simply with those words “wasn't going to ask me as she knew money was tight”.
Please read over Igor’s words again & again as I have already learned a lot from them!
Thank you Igor!!!
Annie
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None of us should just give up after working for years to find our roots, no matter how sad the results are and boy we all find unbelievable things..
I found out some really sad things awhile ago but I told myself it is history and we cannot change it, thank God these things don't happen so much now.
Rootschat is like a club, we all have the same interest and we all help each other, to be honest I think I would feel a bit lost without it now
Pharma, you know you have friends on here that will help you through
Best regards
Louisa Maud
Have a rest yes but don't give up completely
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Thank you to everyone who was kind about what I said.
I was wrong to say to PharmaT that she should decide to stop feeding things that happen as proof into her “not very clever and a bit worthless” box.
It’s difficult to simply tell yourself to stop doing something you may have been doing for years.
But what you can do very simply IS NOTICE WHAT YOURE DOING.
Believe me, just noticing yourself feeding your “box” is often enough.
I speak from experience.
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So what am I supposed to do? Fly to the UK from Australia every time I need a cert? Demand to see parish registers (if I can track them down)!! In past years I have been lucky enough to see original parish registers, though few and far between!!! I doubt whether I will ever get back to the UK again, so do I give up on my research? NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:(
Stick with it Pharma, my love. Do what you love to do and ignore the miserable
comments.
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On the basis that it is necessary to handle records etc a lot of what we all do could be so classed.
We do the best we can with what is available,you are honest about it and seem not to have made wild assumptions,so what is their problem?
The main thing pharma is THEY have the problem,don’t let them shift it on to you.Carry on regardless,and don’t invite them to our pub,they would not be welcome.(And I am not the name over the door!)
You have not said what we can get for you from the bar when you arrive?
Cheerio.
Viktoria.
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So what am I supposed to do? Fly to the UK from Australia every time I need a cert? Demand to see parish registers (if I can track them down)!! In past years I have been lucky enough to see original parish registers, though few and far between!!! I doubt whether I will ever get back to the UK again, so do I give up on my research? NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:(
Stick with it Pharma, my love. Do what you love to do and ignore the miserable
comments.
Do what Pharma indicated she does in her first post on this thread-
“When I only have one piece of evidence for something I have made a point of annotating my tree that there is limited evidence.” she then goes on to say she viewed microfilmed copies of the original registers, many of these are now available online or barring that at your local LDS Family History Center (though obviously in Australia local may still be many miles away).
In addition look for additional sources to back up your assumptions as Pharma also noted she does.
The main thing is to be aware of the limitations of the records available, understand that virtually all GRO certificates are transcripts of transcripts (a few recent ones are not). Be aware census records are transcripts (except the 1911) and even they are compiled from heresay evidence.
We as researchers must try to use as many independent sources as possible to confirm every fact only then can we be proud of our efforts as Pharma should be of hers.
Pharma have confidence in yourself you have by the sound of it constructed the best possible tree you can; have confidence in what you have achieved.
Cheers
Guy
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Hello PharmaT
A person's critical comments are often made out of ignorance.
They haven't always seen or grasped all of the bigger picture you have, nor all of the pieces of evidence you have seen and before you, so far, nor what evidence you intend to see or consider next.
You are leading this Inquiry into your family history PharmaT (not someone else)!
Build a positive inner feeling within you, to say in your mind ...
I'm PharmaT, I've heard comments I consider unfair because of document x or y, or best evidence is and I've been the Senior Investigator into my Family History Hobby for - - years. I have seen these documents to date, I'm really pleased to have discovered them, my next goal to look at is ------
PharmaT you are (not someone else) deciding where your inquiries are going to go next, at your own pace, when convenient and affordable to you.
Take care, Mark
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One ignorant person on a forum said that I make too many assumptions and should read up more on how to do genealogy properly. I told them that I know a lot, lot more about my family history than you do and if you cannot say anything nice, just keep quiet. I had rows with this person before, but after a slight retort, they backed off a bit.
Another member PM'd me saying to take no notice, and it is not up to others to tell you what to put in your family tree as none of us can actually get 100% "proof".
I think as we all know, jealousy breeds hatred and negativity.
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What is wrong with people?, why can't people just mind their own business and let us do what we want with our own family history/ tree
I have over 3000 people so far in my family tree, I haven't published it anywhere and I don't intend to, it is for my own pleasure and my family but if anyone connects with me I will help them but they also have to give some impute, I won't give over everthing to anyone, I did when I first started this lark years ago and I regretted it immediately, if anyone criticizes my efforts it is their problem, not mine
Let's continue to help fellow Rootchatters happily
Happy hunting
Louisa Maud
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What is wrong with people?, why can't people just mind their own business and let us do what we want with our own family history/ tree
I have over 3000 people so far in my family tree, I haven't published it anywhere and I don't intend to, it is for my own pleasure and my family but if anyone connects with me I will help them but they also have to give some impute, I won't give over everthing to anyone, I did when I first started this lark years ago and I regretted it immediately, if anyone criticizes my efforts it is their problem, not mine
Let's continue to help fellow Rootchatters happily
Happy hunting
Louisa Maud
Well said Louisa - I couldn't agree with you more.... in the end it's up to each of us as individuals to construct our trees, do our research as we see fit and really it's not up to others to cast aspersion!
RC is great for help as there are always people who have more experience in knowing how to sometimes find that elusive record and we all help one another out which after all what this web site is for!
Like you early one in my research I was more than happy to give information to those who contacted me, once I'd established there was indeed a connection, but I soon learnt that it was often one way traffic and my records were just being pilfered willy nilly and I'd paid for it all with subs to the well known websites. It's a shame as it is disheartening when this happens as you think you've come across like minded people and they turn out not to be as you thought!
Helping someone discover new information is a joyous thing and I love to share in their happiness..... but there does need to be something coming back too.
Caroline
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Does this all mean that if we help someone when we find out by looking at records we have to prove our findings, in which case it isn't always possible to do so, data protection and all that
If I ask for help on RC I always try to double check what I have been told, same as if I help someone I hope they double check
This certainly is an eye opener as they say
Louisa Maud
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Pharma T, have you got the message by now?
Who do you believe & trust?
"Them"? - or us Roots lot?
You should have got the message ....
What a pity the person who led you to this hasn't posted why they felt they had to undermine you????
We could have all had a bit of a go at he/she....
-Oh no, blood sports are banned, aren't they?
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Does this all mean that if we help someone when we find out by looking at records we have to prove our findings, in which case it isn't always possible to do so, data protection and all that
If I ask for help on RC I always try to double check what I have been told, same as if I help someone I hope they double check
This certainly is an eye opener as they say
Louisa Maud
Hi
Once a person has died the Data Protection Act (DPA) no longer applies to a record about a deceased individual. Although there may be limited redactions of names placed on the copy if people still alive are named in the document.
Odd really, because release of information under some Acts (like Health Act), nobody was redacted, unless the same document mentioned a totally unrelated incident, to which the requester had no right.
On that application Health professionals in immediate attendance were named, as they had signed the Report Forms, that my Son of 23 years had just died and the precise location.
Sorry, but on New Years Eve, it will be 5 years.
PhramaT,
Many of us are unlucky and things do happen to us that we feel are unfair, or we had no control over. Sometimes they come one after another and/or hit our confidence and feelings too.
When you lay down tonight to wake up fresher in the morning, please remember you are not alone, times are tough for many and others on Rootschat and elsewhere are feeling this too.
Keep up your good work on your Tree! I think of my Boy every day, I say a little prayer and of course I suddenly cry briefly for a couple of minutes every month or so, but having interests, genuine friends, beliefs and this hobby has also really helped me (despite suffering depression and Atrophy etc). Others are persevering through their life problems too.
Try and look for the good and positive too, when you start looking there is an awful lot of good out there. Look at all the genuine and meaningful comments on all these boards.
Trouble is TV news features mainly on the bad, (okay we need to know to be able to help one another) but we don't need negative TV news on the hour every hour! Because there are so many local people to us in our Communities, even ones here on these Rootschat Boards, who are all unsung heroes in their own way!!
We had a black woman coming round our Council office shaking a tin for a Cancer Charity, I felt I should go to her funeral and it was said she had raised £100,000s for the Charity just shaking that tin, what a great epitaph at the time.
What I'm trying to say is, there are many good people out there and try to keep positive yourself (don't let one or a few people upset you too much, despite it being awfully upsetting at the time, or each time it happens) and also you are definitely not alone!
Look after your Daughter too, top priority that precious one, who one day when older, will want to see what her Mummy set out, or perhaps your Grandchild, (like me) will want to know. I only wish I had Grandma's notes & photos & papers, of what my Grandmother was saying (even if they were Notes someone had made, based on what they were told) of the bits I recall when I was a wee boy.
One of the Quakers surnames she mentioned, was in an ancestor's Yorkshire property registration document that a kind Rootshatter had gone and got some year dates for, thank you - and after having a search of those years, I eventually got all those 6 document copies, the Rootschatter had originally found.
A collection has just appeared in an archive, mentioning several of those chaps connected with my ancestor, so I hope to see that soon. Only deposited 2015, but spanning 100s of years.
Keep your research safe and all of you out there look after yourselves and your nearest and dearest.
(My word, I have waffled), but enjoy the good times!
Take care, Mark
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Mark, I am sorry about your son at such a young age, it is not in the scheme of things that a anyone of that age should depart from this life, in our family we lost a 22 year old, a 44 year old and a couple in their 50's, I like to think they have gone to a better place and suffer no more, there is nothing wrong with having a few tears, no one can take away our memories and the love we had for them, having said that an aged relative died last week aged 98, now this is a celebration of a good Christian woman who always knew she would be where she wanted in the after life
I will think of you and your son on New Years eve along with another great friend of mine who died on New Years eve
Apart from your sad news you wrote a nice message to Pharma T, I am hoping having slept on it she has had a better day today knowing we all care
Louisa Maud
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Bless you Mark
lovely thoughtful words xxx
so sorry you lost your son xxx
xin
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Hello
Thank you for the kind comments.
All I was trying to say (as mentioned also by Louisa Maud), everyone has had some upsets and we are sorry to hear how hard some knocks in life were and currently are to bear. Feelings can be up and down some days.
Regarding your research PharmaT,
Don't allow one or several very upsetting comments, to overtake all that good you have accomplished in your research, over many years.
Just look at all those things you have found out and how pleased you were, the thrill, the excitement, when you discovered this or that about your family, in documents, or other sources, for your Tree.
You know the efforts you have put in, the places and sources you have visited and looked at, far better than some of us ever will!
Everyone can be proud about their personal discoveries made about their family, that to me is the greatest thrill in family history!
Mark
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Some great advice has been given on this thread which hopefully will help PharmaT through this hard time.
I think we are all interested to know how you are feeling now PharmaT. I see you have been logged on but have not returned to this thread. (hope you are ok)
An idea which may or may not be useful:
Would it help you feel better if you contacted the person who upset you, to assure them that after some consideration you are confident in your research and your research methods, and ask them to refrain from interfering in the future. Might saying something along these lines make you feel in control and maybe put them in their place?
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BushInn - Mark...
I'm so sorry for your loss of one so young and at that particular time, it is always very hard to come to terms with as it's not the right order of how it should be.
You are in my thoughts and I too will think of you on NYE.
On the flip side I lost my dear father when I was 21 and felt his passing profoundly- he was with me for months afterwards protecting and guiding me as I tried to come to terms with life without him. After about a year I suddenly realised he was no longer by my side and I guess that was because I had picked myself up and was getting on with my life. I had been married for 6 months before he died and my husband was very compassionate over that time too.
Caroline
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Thank you Caroline
Mark