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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: owenc on Thursday 29 November 18 12:44 GMT (UK)
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So I am trying to find the Parents of my GGG Grandfather, James Cummins (1810-1895).
I know that James was born in the Magilligan area and moved to The Articlave area sometime in the 1850’s.
I have been provided with all Cummins records in Magilligan Presbyterian Church up to and including 1844. Unfortunately, his Baptism is not there as records didn’t start until 1814.
Now here are his known children (that I know of):
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Bannbrook/Ringrash_More/588338/
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Articlave/Ballywildrick_Upper/587994/
I cannot find James, Rachel or Margaret’s baptism. I did find a Margaret baptised in 1873 in Coleraine, however, her parents are listed as James junior (above) and Sarah McSheffrey. Margaret and Rachel are listed as James Seniors children in his will. Why would James senior list Margaret as his daughter in his will if it was his Granddaughter? And also why would a 61 year old man father a child?
I have also seen a death certificate of a women who was his wife known as “Matilda”. I do not know if this is my GGGG Grandmother.
Within the Magilligan Presbyterian Church there are two marriages that stand out as being possibly him:
Jane Glen (1826)
Jane McReynolds (1837)
There are also more than 20 James listed in the Communicants records over the years.
How do I discern which one of these James’ is mines and who is parents and partner is?
I have searched extensively including on Newspaper records and struggled to find anything.
Please help.
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Hello Owen C
I have Cummings ancestors who attended Magilligan Presbyterian Church from C1810 the year it was built. These were George Cummings married to Elizabeth
Taylor C 1798.They had 3 children James Cummings , Mary, David Cummings.
They settled in Ballycarton but were originally from Tircrevan.
James is listed in the Magilligan Presbyterian List of Communicants C.1810 along with his sister Mary. James is listed as James Cummings son of George Cummings to distinguish him from his cousin James Cummings (Son of David Cummings from Tircrevan).
James Cummings Jr married Sarah Jane Mc Laughlin of Oldtown, Aghanloo, about 1838. James remained a member of Magilligan Presbyterian Church but his wife Sarah Jane & 6 children were listed as RC on the 1855 census.
As far as I can remember there were another few James Cummings in that Census from other townlands including one who emigrated to the USA in 1854.
You can view this list on the Magilligan Presbyterian Church Facebook Page along with several other valuable records including their 1855 Census of the Congregation.
Also have you considered taking one of the Ancestry DNA tests on the market?
I have taken 2 and I had several Cummings matches which helped me break down a few brick walls in my tree.
Hope this helps,
warmest regards,
Summerhill.
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Hello Owen C
I have Cummings ancestors who attended Magilligan Presbyterian Church from C1810 the year it was built. These were George Cummings married to Elizabeth
Taylor C 1798.They had 3 children James Cummings , Mary, David Cummings.
They settled in Ballycarton but were originally from Tircrevan.
James is listed in the Magilligan Presbyterian List of Communicants C.1810 along with his sister Mary. James is listed as James Cummings son of George Cummings to distinguish him from his cousin James Cummings (Son of David Cummings from Tircrevan).
James Cummings Jr married Sarah Jane Mc Laughlin of Oldtown, Aghanloo, about 1838. James remained a member of Magilligan Presbyterian Church but his wife Sarah Jane & 6 children were listed as RC on the 1855 census.
As far as I can remember there were another few James Cummings in that Census from other townlands including one who emigrated to the USA in 1854.
You can view this list on the Magilligan Presbyterian Church Facebook Page along with several other valuable records including their 1855 Census of the Congregation.
Also have you considered taking one of the Ancestry DNA tests on the market?
I have taken 2 and I had several Cummings matches which helped me break down a few brick walls in my tree.
Hope this helps,
warmest regards,
Summerhill.
Hi Summerhill,
Thanks for contacting me. I have had a look at these records and cannot tie my GGG Grandfather down in terms of a wife or parents because there are SO many James' in the records and he seems to have perhaps married a few times. I know that he is from Tircrevin, that is all I really know about him.
I don't think that he would've had the marriage with Jane McLaughlin as my ancestors are Presbyterian. And James was listed in the Dunboe area in the 1857 Griffiths Valuation.
I would love to tie him down, but I cannot find the birth of my GG Grandfather James Cummins, estimated to be born around 1850-1860 in the Magilligan area, although from Coleraine. This would give the mother on the record (if it exists).
I must have a look on the Magilligan Presbyterian Church Facebook site to see if I see anything as I have only looked at 1813-1840?
I have an AncestryDNA kit, here it is: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/dna/insights/3F1C3FDE-F157-4CB0-862C-B21F35E87687
I am listed as 'Owen Cummins'.
I don't know if I have matched up with you. What is your name on the site?
My tree is below:
https://ancstry.me/2s1BDq0
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Hi OwenC
I am sure you are asking a rhetorical question when you ask why a 61 year man would father a child so why won't go any further. Just wanted to note also that in 60 year old James census listing he has a 22 year old daughter called Tillie. Tillie is usually a short form for Matilda. There is a Matilda Cummins born in 6/11/1888 to James Cummins and Sarah McSheffery Cummins In 1901 census her name is given as Tilda. Also note that James' age is fairly fluid as he showing as 45years in this 1901 census and 60 in the one 10 years later.
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There is a Jane Cummins who died in 1878 aged 18yrs dau of a James Cummins farmer of Ballywildrick whose death was reported by a Rachel Cummins who was present at the death. This was registered in Articlave District. Putting this up as it has a Rachel Cummins mentioned. From https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie
Also on irish genealogy is the death of Matilda Cummins who died in 1891 Ballywildrick registered in Articlave with the informant being Rachel Cummins who was present at the death. James who died in 1895 is shown as widower
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Articlare/Ballywildrick_Upper/1516977/
This has a Rachel and a Margaret Cummins born c1862 & 1871 so look like james Husband of Sarah's siblings.
I wonder where the Rachel Cummins dau of James married to Sarah was in 1901 census. There is a large gap in age (9years) between Rachel jnr and the next of her siblings living at home.
Also note that in the census above there are niece/nephew mentioned with surnames Mathew and Blair. Am aware that in some, well in a couple of my Irish families, younger cousins would often call older cousins Aunty. (was going to happen in my own family until my mother put a stop to it saying we had enough true aunts and uncles to keep track of without confusing it with cross generational cousin Aunts/Uncles.) Whether you would still call them a hon aunt/nephew etc in a census is the question. Anyway putting that aside it does give room for some more siblings of the James (sarah ) Cummins and these older Rachel and Margaret Cummins possibly sisters who married a Blair and a mathew? Or is that too simple. With more records to look at there is a possibility of striking it lucky with the older James & Jane? or Matilda?
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Well there is a William Mathews born Articlave registration district 20/11/1870 to Alexander Mathews and Mary Ann Cumins (it looks like?) So possibly the older Rachel and Margaret also had a sister called Mary Ann. NB James (Sarah) Cummins has a dau named Mary Anne.
Lots of Blairs are living with the two unmarried Cummins sisters in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Articlave/Ballywildrick_Upper/587994/
Youngest is shown as Lillie but looking at the handwritten version it looks more like Tillie ie no long bottom stroke to the L.
Wondering if the Blairs are in fact William Mathews' nieces and nephews and his aunts' Gt nieces etc. One birth has the mother as Matilda Matthews Blair........aaaggh
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Yes Shanreagh, there were marriages to Matthews and Blair. Those are my GGG grandfathers grandchildren.
As you can see there are several different “children” belonging to James, this is evident with the around 6 children in the grave at Dunboe.
I honestly don’t know if these are half or full siblings of James my GG Grandfather due to the massive age gap. I tried to find their baptisms and couldn’t.
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The children based on the grave are:
1.Jane b1860
2. Mary ann b1847
3. James*
4. Elizabeth b1854
5. Rachel
6. Margaret (?)
James my GG is not in that grave. I did try to find the birth of all of these women but found nothing.
What I found odd was that Margaret of 1873 was listed as the daughter of James Cummins and Sarah McSheffrey. This doesn't make any sense to me?
Rachel is listed as James Sr's daughter in the Will, so she would be Margaret's aunt, yet she is listed as a 'sister' in this census: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Articlare/Ballywildrick_Upper/1516977/
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03177/2165064.pdf
It is highly unlikely that Rachel is also James and Sarah's daughter as that what have James having fathered her at around age 10.
That is a small gap between a grandfathers child and a father child, of 9 years.
I don’t know if these children were baptised in Magilligan or Dunboe?
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Hello Owen C
Just to echo Shanreaghs observations re James Cummins fathering children with large age gaps between them my2X Great Grandfather James Cummings
( Born 1838 son of James Cummings & Sarah Jane McLaughlin) married Elizabeth Mc Dermott in Tamlaghtard RC Church in 1871. They had 8 children. James was a Pork Butcher by trade and moved around a bit from Limavady to Derry then on to Ballymoney, Co. Antrim .Elizabeth died in 1898 and James remarried again in Ballymoney on January 30th 1900 to Beatrice Ellison and 8 more children were born from that marriage. So indeed there were large age gaps between the siblings in that family.
Do you know what occupation your James Cummins was? could he have moved around because of his occupation?
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Also all the Cummings's of Tircrevan and Ballycarton had origins in Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland.
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Also all the Cummings's of Tircrevan and Ballycarton had origins in Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland.
Where did you get that information from, Summerhill? I have done a y-dna rest, so that will be confirmed if it is true.
Regarding his vocation. I don’t know but it does appear that he had a lot of daughters and had more than one wife.
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Got that information from another cousin who has done extensive research into the Cummings's of Tircrevan & Ballycarton. George Cumming was born in Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland in 1778 his parents were David Cumming & Elizabeth Lang. George came over to Limavady about late 1790's- early 1800's. Married Elizabeth Taylor and died at Ballycarton in 1854. (They had 3 children David , James & Mary.) I am descended from James.
David Cumming & Elizabeth Lang had about 12 children spanning 20 years. George was their 4th child. If you do a search on Scotlands People you will find all the children of David & Elizabeth Cumming. They were Presbyterian and married at Paisley Kirk Low Parish about 1776.
I have also sent you a personal message.
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Who then are the Cummins in the 1740 Protestant census? It looks like there may be two branches in Magilligan because I do not share any cm's with you on Gedmatch, unfortunately.
I am thinking that is why your surname is spelt differently. But very interesting that your relative was able to find that out.
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Im sorry I have no idea about the Cummins's on that 1740 Protestant census.
But although there were several Cummings/ Cummins 's in Magilligan perhaps your branch originated in England? The London Livery Company were granted large tracts of Land in Londonderry during the plantations.
Its a pity about Gedmatch too.
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Im sorry I have no idea about the Cummins's on that 1740 Protestant census.
But although there were several Cummings/ Cummins 's in Magilligan perhaps your branch originated in England? The London Livery Company were granted large tracts of Land in Londonderry during the plantations.
Its a pity about Gedmatch too.
Thanks Summerhill, that’s fine. I always knew there was a Cummings family in Limavady. I always get people asking me if I am related to them. I questioned it but couldn’t find any link. It makes sense now why the surname is spelt differently.
I think my family would’ve came over in the early 1600’s from Scotland.
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It was very normal for people in Magilligan to wait to middle/later age to have children. Rev Butler noted that he was concerned with the fact that the protestants were basically waiting to go to America and didn't marry.
Magilligan Presbyterian Ancestry and Genealogy book will be out in a few weeks. Advertised on FB
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Im sorry I have no idea about the Cummins's on that 1740 Protestant census.
But although there were several Cummings/ Cummins 's in Magilligan perhaps your branch originated in England? The London Livery Company were granted large tracts of Land in Londonderry during the plantations.
Its a pity about Gedmatch too.
Magilligan was always Church land, The livery companies had no influence in Magilligan other than the movement of people from there neighbouring lands
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It was very normal for people in Magilligan to wait to middle/later age to have children. Rev Butler noted that he was concerned with the fact that the protestants were basically waiting to go to America and didn't marry.
Magilligan Presbyterian Ancestry and Genealogy book will be out in a few weeks. Advertised on FB
I seen that, although I wondered if that was a Presbyterian thing as that side of my family had a lot of females who didn’t marry, hence the lack of a presence of the “Cummins” name, today.
Does the book have additional information not in the Church Records?
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a few of the earliest records. Book will also have rental recorsd, muster lists, lord leet lists, coi vestry, coi cess tax
1814 Aug Rachael Cumins David Cumins Rachael Mc "Ivor" Tircrevan Dunboe
1815 Jun 11th James Cumins William Cumins Mary McG_____ Tircrevan Tircrevan
1817 Feb 28th William Cummings William Cummings Mary McGranaghan Tircrevan
1818 Nov 11th William Cumins David Cumins Rachael McIvor Tircrevan Dunboe
unsure what you have seen so cant say?
Yes this was normal for all the protestants to marry late
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I think i’ve seen all of the church records and the Muster Roll, alongside the 1831 census but not the rest of that.
It is difficult to track my surname because it seems to have changed spelling quite frequently. And now we’ve learn’t that there was two branches in the area, so that will be an added difficulty.
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I think i’ve seen all of the church records and the Muster Roll, alongside the 1831 census but not the rest of that.
It is difficult to track my surname because it seems to have changed spelling quite frequently. And now we’ve learn’t that there was two branches in the area, so that will be an added difficulty.
Certainly noticed the spelling changing, the whole time.
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Yes, it is difficult to determine the original surname. (It may not have been Cummins, at all).